I have been going through many articles, most of them from official websites. I found that the divorce rate within ISKCON devotees is higher than karmi circle, some say even more than 50% of the devotee couples end up in divorce.This becomes all the more shocking to me as in our society, we claim to invest so much time and energy for training devotees for grihastha ashram, through various seminars. On the contrary, karmis practically don't receive any training at all.Can somebody shed light on why this is happening? I feel, since many devotees are being affected, along with individual weaknesses, there has to be some fundamental issues within our society.Please shed your frank views those who have actually witnessed such cases.I also beginning to wonder if it is really of any help to spiritual life by being in a devotee marriage and then getting up divorced.Ys.
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Muralidhara Priya DasI have heard this divorce rate percentage passed around devotee circles before, but I have never been given any statistical proof or evidence. What study was performed?, Who was interviewed? Which locations of the world? These and many other questions need to be answered about the statement of %50 divorce rate. It could be totally fabricated. We cannot just throw around figures like this with out some evidential facts from a real study. I want to see that study and talk to the person who performed it, and ask what his methods were.
Mohini Madhavi Devi Dasii am not sure if we have such statistics. And maybe it is like this because in outside world there is no marriage but partnership with no marriage.
Muralidhara Priya DasIf my memory serves me correctly someone told me at a certain time there was a divorce survey done in the 1980's in the USA when ISKCON was going through some "growing pains" so to say, I wouldn't be surprised if that the rate was at 50% then, as many people were also leaving the movement in the USA. But I want to see someone conduct a modern recent survey in light of our growth and maturity as an organization.
and maybe it is because girls are married to those whom they do not like.
Since strength of family union mostly depends on a woman, so if she is not satisfied with suppose family will be destroyed.
Especially in ISKCON what to speak of divorce it is so difficult to make that marriage.
And mostly marriage happens by meeting people online or by marriage boards which are not so serious.
I mean very rare people will really take care of you as if you are their son or daughter and find a partner which you will really like.
And most times, as it was mentioned above, boys will go for brahmacharya and girls will have to get married to anyone.
So there should be something!
As boys are trained as brahmacharis some of them should be trained as nice grihasthas also. Otherwise they are taught that girl is maya, maya maya. In this way Devotee girls will get married to non Devotee boys and how then we can wait for nice progeny?
And those brahmacharis who were not ready for full renunciation soon or later will fall down.
So this breaks heart.
Real gentleman is one who is ready to do anything needed if that pleases Devotees and Krishna. If marriage - he will accept that as a service, if brahmacharya then he will accept that if in that ashram he will do more and better services for Krishna.
So summary: girls should be married to Devotees of their careful choice. Not forced marriage. Or marriage just for the sake of maintenance. There should be some feeling towards each other.
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I recently joined this forum and don't feel I am qualified to advice or comment, so please forgive me if there anything wrong. During my regular reading I came across something related so I thought I will write.
The biggest problem today is the 'False Ego' and how much you are in control of it or maya makes you. Even a moment's false ego can eventually snow ball into mountain if you don't realize. This is not the ego that causes problems in the marriage. This is the ego that causes one to deviate from their shelter and that shelter is Guru or Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada arranged and married many disciples but his one and only instruction was to consult and follow the instructions of your Spiritual Master all the time (not most of the time).
1. If you want to marry take instructions from your Spiritual Master
2. If you have problems in your grhasta life, consult and take instruction from your Spiritual Master. (This doesn't mean you always keep on poking, but whatever decision you take make sure it aligns with your Spiritual Master's instructions and sometime consult if you can't decide.)
3. And most importantly follow the instructions of your Spiritual Master like its your life and soul.
But most often our False Ego takes over based on various things we learned, read and based on various life experiences we try to solve the problems. Surrendering to Guru and taking shelter in his instructions are the only way. When Srila Prabhupada's deciples asked him to bring his Godbrother to guide them when they feared about his health, Srila Prabhupada told them, "No, if that other Guru says ONE word that doesn't match with my instruction, the entire thing will fall down". That is how important it is.
So I think the problem is either not taking shelter under bonafide Guru or not following his instructions.
And why it is apparent more and more now a days? Maya is very strong, much more than most of us think.
Please do forgive me for any offfenses i may have commited by tinge of my learning. Today hearing Krsna katha, chanting and Gurus instructions , everything is covered in these three things. There is no need to discuss about problems, as we have to accept what Krsna gives and love him in happiness and distress. We may think so much miseries come to me. Its all our Karma. We should think just because of our attitude towards suffering and to escape from it we have gathered Karma and got this material body. Now let the suffering end with tolerating it rather than escaping it.
Prabuji, in kali yuga every one is sudra. where is the question of caste? Varna sankara occurs when women are not protected by their children, father or husband. They mingle with adultrous men and men exploit them , thereby unwanted progeny is the result.
A vaishnava doesnt have caste. Its sinful to enquire a devotee about his caste.....
Onewho is a vaishnava, he doesnt have any caste, "vaishnava yati buddhi". One who says vaishnava has some caste, or who asks a vaishnava about his caste he is a " pasandisa narakisa, he is a great offender and he will go to hell and suffer says HH Gaur Govind Swami maharaj.
If the family keeps Krsna in the centre then everything is fine, cause they all have one job, to satisfy the senses of Krsna. But when each family member tries to make himself the centre , then differences pop up.
When we say "no illicit sex". It doesnt mearly mean sex other than ones own wife. One has to see his wife as a source of pleasure for Krsna. She is there to serve Krsna and not his senses.
Union performed only to beget Krsna concious children. How many follow it ? And its said that when a devotee has taken a vow to follow the four regulative principles, if he performs illicit sex, if semen is lost, then its as grave as eating beef says HH Radhanath swami maharaf, its quoted in Caitanya charan prabus website "the spiritual scientist."
Sanyassis are cautioned not to hear a woman singing, not to talk with woman in secluded place, not to see or touch even a wooden form of woman. And in marriage, a man and woman stay togather, how much spiritual strength is required to follow the rules of grihasta ashram, it only comes throu mercy of guru serving him and making continous efforts to please him by following his instructions. Otherwise its like following grehamedi life, getting married to satisfy ones tounge and genitals.
Karmis have to work hard to satisfy the senses of his family members. The moment he is not able to he is rejected from his family, if he is successful in satifying their senses full life time, still he is fooled , cause he has compromised his life and his family members, with repeated cycle of birth and death.
If there is any help to spiritual marriage... regarding that, if one is not able to stay brahmachari, he has to get married and take responsibilittes on his head, under guidance of spiritual master he will make progress. Or he will become woman hunter...
Respected Devotees & Prabhujis, Hare Krsna, AGTSP, Dandavats,
श्री अक्रूर महाराज धृतराष्ट्र को समझाते हैं कि “इस जगत में किसी का किसी अन्य से कोई स्थायी सम्बन्ध नहीं है | हम अपने ही शरीर के साथ जब सदा के लिए नहीं रह सकते तो फिर हमारी पत्नी, संतान तथा अन्यों के लिए क्या कहा जा सकता है | हर प्राणी अकेला उत्पन्न होता है और अकेला ही मरता है” (SB.10.49.20-21) | बलि महाराज भगवान् वामन देव को आत्म समर्पण करते हुए कहते हैं: “उस भौतिक शरीर का क्या लाभ जो जीवन के अन्त में अपने स्वामी को स्वतः छोड़ देता है? परिवार के उन सभी सदस्यों से क्या लाभ जो वास्तव में उस धन का अपहरण कर लेते हैं, जो भगवान् की सेवा में उपयोगी हो सकता है? उस पत्नी से भी क्या लाभ जो भौतिक दशाओं को बढाने की श्रोत मात्र है? उस घर, परिवार, देश, तथा जाति से भी क्या लाभ जिसमे आसक्त होने से सारे जीवन का विनाश हो जाता है” (SB.8.22.9) |
श्रीमद् भागवतम (7.9.45) में प्रह्लाद महाराज कहते हैं: “विषयी जीवन की तुलना खुजली दूर करने हेतु दोनों हाथों के रगड़ने से की गई है | गृह-मेघी अर्थात वे गृहस्थ जिन्हें कोई आध्यात्मिक ज्ञान नही है,सोचते हैं कि यह खुजलाना सर्वोत्कृष्ट सुख है, वास्तव में तो यह दुख की जड़ है | वे बारम्बार इन्द्रिय भोग करने पर भी कभी तुष्ट नही होते किन्तु जो धीर हैं इस खुजलाहट को सह लेते हैं” |
How did you reach the conclusion that one should not marry a devotee girl? Like you have come to KC, a lot of souls in female bodies have also come to KC. If they do not get married to devotee boys, what will be their condition? First they will wait to marry a devotee from their community and caste, then after some years they will become open to marrying outside their community, but to devotee only. All the while, their frustration at not getting married, simply because they have chosen the path of devotion, will increase. Then they will finally get married, devotee or non devotee, but by that time they have already become old for marraige by popular norms.
Then the struggle begins if they have married into non devotee families.
Net net - if both the partners think that they have to work towards making their marraige work, then and only then the marraige will survive. I can give so many examples of senior devotee couples - the only thing binding them is their devotion to Krsna. Indian Girl (devotee) from super rich family marries a poor devotee, from USA. She even has to work on filling pots of water and cooking with that. Her first marraige, his second - also has a son from the first marraige. Their marraige has survived more than 25 years. There are so many examples like that. Instead of studying why marraiges break (important to study this no doubt), one can also study devotee couples and analyse why marraiges work. Then try to imbibe the positives from their relationship.
Pls dont reach this conclusion not to marry, or not to marry devotee girl. Why not marry devotee girl, and both embark on the journey back home, back to Krsna together, helping each other and always keeping the focus that this marraige is to make spiritual progress. There will be problems no doubt, depend on Krsna at those times and He will show you the way. It works, it really does.
I am reproducing some analysis relevant to above discussion.
To get married is easy, to stay married to the same person is difficult and to stay happily married to the same person is even more difficult. But the difficulties in our relationships help us go deeper and search for meaning and purpose in our lives.To help relationships flourish, right from the day of marriage and throughout our lives, we have to base these relationships on higher principles. Sometimes we like each other and sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we are happy, at other times we are angry. The ego is flickering and the mind is even more wavering, and the senses are always agitated. If our relationship is based on these superficial standards of body, mind or ego, then our relationship has not much substance. However if we harmonize and adjust our circumstances to higher principles we will be happy. For example, one such principle is‘forget it’. When you are married, you live with another ego, and when two egos live close to each other it’s natural to expect conflicts and disagreements. During disputes, remember the‘forget it’ principle. Remember the conflict isn’t important but the higher principle of helping each other, love God and be instruments of God’s love in this world is more sacred.There is more to marriage than romance. Romance in a marriage comes and goes.
It’s the heart to heart connection to a higher sense of responsibility that keeps the spark in a relationship burning. Then even the difficulties provide rich lessons to serve together.The higher spiritual principle of marriage is seen in the vows the couple takes. Traditionally marriages are held in a temple or a place of worship so that the Lord sees us His devotees take the vow and that helps the couple center their lives on service to God and humanity. Mother nature teaches us that the best of all jewels, the diamond and gold, are purified when put under high pressure or fire. Similarly by faithfully passing through the good and the bad times; the easy and hard times and being with each other and for each other, that’s what marriage is meant to be. And internalizing this principle transforms marriage into a sacred act and makes one spiritually perfect.
Each of the partners in marriage considers the other to be a child of God, entrusted in his or her care. How you treat your partner is how God will receive you; how you speak, treat and protect each other on the physical, emotional and spiritual level is how you will make spiritual progress.The foundational structure of a spiritual marriage is ‘respect’, ‘forgiveness’, ‘appreciation’ for each other, and the serious responsibility to make the other person happy.Its practice of these principles that could make married life also a divine, spiritual experience.
Replies
Chirag Prabhu, can You please answer here https://www.facebook.com/MohiniMadhaviDd/posts/867610066603356?comm...
and maybe it is because girls are married to those whom they do not like.
Since strength of family union mostly depends on a woman, so if she is not satisfied with suppose family will be destroyed.
Especially in ISKCON what to speak of divorce it is so difficult to make that marriage.
And mostly marriage happens by meeting people online or by marriage boards which are not so serious.
I mean very rare people will really take care of you as if you are their son or daughter and find a partner which you will really like.
And most times, as it was mentioned above, boys will go for brahmacharya and girls will have to get married to anyone.
So there should be something!
As boys are trained as brahmacharis some of them should be trained as nice grihasthas also. Otherwise they are taught that girl is maya, maya maya. In this way Devotee girls will get married to non Devotee boys and how then we can wait for nice progeny?
And those brahmacharis who were not ready for full renunciation soon or later will fall down.
So this breaks heart.
Real gentleman is one who is ready to do anything needed if that pleases Devotees and Krishna. If marriage - he will accept that as a service, if brahmacharya then he will accept that if in that ashram he will do more and better services for Krishna.
So summary: girls should be married to Devotees of their careful choice. Not forced marriage. Or marriage just for the sake of maintenance. There should be some feeling towards each other.
Your servant,
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
I recently joined this forum and don't feel I am qualified to advice or comment, so please forgive me if there anything wrong. During my regular reading I came across something related so I thought I will write.
The biggest problem today is the 'False Ego' and how much you are in control of it or maya makes you. Even a moment's false ego can eventually snow ball into mountain if you don't realize. This is not the ego that causes problems in the marriage. This is the ego that causes one to deviate from their shelter and that shelter is Guru or Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada arranged and married many disciples but his one and only instruction was to consult and follow the instructions of your Spiritual Master all the time (not most of the time).
1. If you want to marry take instructions from your Spiritual Master
2. If you have problems in your grhasta life, consult and take instruction from your Spiritual Master. (This doesn't mean you always keep on poking, but whatever decision you take make sure it aligns with your Spiritual Master's instructions and sometime consult if you can't decide.)
3. And most importantly follow the instructions of your Spiritual Master like its your life and soul.
But most often our False Ego takes over based on various things we learned, read and based on various life experiences we try to solve the problems. Surrendering to Guru and taking shelter in his instructions are the only way. When Srila Prabhupada's deciples asked him to bring his Godbrother to guide them when they feared about his health, Srila Prabhupada told them, "No, if that other Guru says ONE word that doesn't match with my instruction, the entire thing will fall down". That is how important it is.
So I think the problem is either not taking shelter under bonafide Guru or not following his instructions.
And why it is apparent more and more now a days? Maya is very strong, much more than most of us think.
Your aspiring servant,
Shantibhushan
Please do forgive me for any offfenses i may have commited by tinge of my learning. Today hearing Krsna katha, chanting and Gurus instructions , everything is covered in these three things. There is no need to discuss about problems, as we have to accept what Krsna gives and love him in happiness and distress. We may think so much miseries come to me. Its all our Karma. We should think just because of our attitude towards suffering and to escape from it we have gathered Karma and got this material body. Now let the suffering end with tolerating it rather than escaping it.
Hare Krsna,
Prabuji, in kali yuga every one is sudra. where is the question of caste? Varna sankara occurs when women are not protected by their children, father or husband. They mingle with adultrous men and men exploit them , thereby unwanted progeny is the result.
A vaishnava doesnt have caste. Its sinful to enquire a devotee about his caste.....
Onewho is a vaishnava, he doesnt have any caste, "vaishnava yati buddhi". One who says vaishnava has some caste, or who asks a vaishnava about his caste he is a " pasandisa narakisa, he is a great offender and he will go to hell and suffer says HH Gaur Govind Swami maharaj.
If the family keeps Krsna in the centre then everything is fine, cause they all have one job, to satisfy the senses of Krsna. But when each family member tries to make himself the centre , then differences pop up.
When we say "no illicit sex". It doesnt mearly mean sex other than ones own wife. One has to see his wife as a source of pleasure for Krsna. She is there to serve Krsna and not his senses.
Union performed only to beget Krsna concious children. How many follow it ? And its said that when a devotee has taken a vow to follow the four regulative principles, if he performs illicit sex, if semen is lost, then its as grave as eating beef says HH Radhanath swami maharaf, its quoted in Caitanya charan prabus website "the spiritual scientist."
Sanyassis are cautioned not to hear a woman singing, not to talk with woman in secluded place, not to see or touch even a wooden form of woman. And in marriage, a man and woman stay togather, how much spiritual strength is required to follow the rules of grihasta ashram, it only comes throu mercy of guru serving him and making continous efforts to please him by following his instructions. Otherwise its like following grehamedi life, getting married to satisfy ones tounge and genitals.
Karmis have to work hard to satisfy the senses of his family members. The moment he is not able to he is rejected from his family, if he is successful in satifying their senses full life time, still he is fooled , cause he has compromised his life and his family members, with repeated cycle of birth and death.
If there is any help to spiritual marriage... regarding that, if one is not able to stay brahmachari, he has to get married and take responsibilittes on his head, under guidance of spiritual master he will make progress. Or he will become woman hunter...
Respected Devotees & Prabhujis, Hare Krsna, AGTSP, Dandavats,
श्री अक्रूर महाराज धृतराष्ट्र को समझाते हैं कि “इस जगत में किसी का किसी अन्य से कोई स्थायी सम्बन्ध नहीं है | हम अपने ही शरीर के साथ जब सदा के लिए नहीं रह सकते तो फिर हमारी पत्नी, संतान तथा अन्यों के लिए क्या कहा जा सकता है | हर प्राणी अकेला उत्पन्न होता है और अकेला ही मरता है” (SB.10.49.20-21) | बलि महाराज भगवान् वामन देव को आत्म समर्पण करते हुए कहते हैं: “उस भौतिक शरीर का क्या लाभ जो जीवन के अन्त में अपने स्वामी को स्वतः छोड़ देता है? परिवार के उन सभी सदस्यों से क्या लाभ जो वास्तव में उस धन का अपहरण कर लेते हैं, जो भगवान् की सेवा में उपयोगी हो सकता है? उस पत्नी से भी क्या लाभ जो भौतिक दशाओं को बढाने की श्रोत मात्र है? उस घर, परिवार, देश, तथा जाति से भी क्या लाभ जिसमे आसक्त होने से सारे जीवन का विनाश हो जाता है” (SB.8.22.9) |
श्रीमद् भागवतम (7.9.45) में प्रह्लाद महाराज कहते हैं: “विषयी जीवन की तुलना खुजली दूर करने हेतु दोनों हाथों के रगड़ने से की गई है | गृह-मेघी अर्थात वे गृहस्थ जिन्हें कोई आध्यात्मिक ज्ञान नही है,सोचते हैं कि यह खुजलाना सर्वोत्कृष्ट सुख है, वास्तव में तो यह दुख की जड़ है | वे बारम्बार इन्द्रिय भोग करने पर भी कभी तुष्ट नही होते किन्तु जो धीर हैं इस खुजलाहट को सह लेते हैं” |
Your servant
Hare KRsna Prabhuji,
PAMHO.
How did you reach the conclusion that one should not marry a devotee girl? Like you have come to KC, a lot of souls in female bodies have also come to KC. If they do not get married to devotee boys, what will be their condition? First they will wait to marry a devotee from their community and caste, then after some years they will become open to marrying outside their community, but to devotee only. All the while, their frustration at not getting married, simply because they have chosen the path of devotion, will increase. Then they will finally get married, devotee or non devotee, but by that time they have already become old for marraige by popular norms.
Then the struggle begins if they have married into non devotee families.
Net net - if both the partners think that they have to work towards making their marraige work, then and only then the marraige will survive. I can give so many examples of senior devotee couples - the only thing binding them is their devotion to Krsna. Indian Girl (devotee) from super rich family marries a poor devotee, from USA. She even has to work on filling pots of water and cooking with that. Her first marraige, his second - also has a son from the first marraige. Their marraige has survived more than 25 years. There are so many examples like that. Instead of studying why marraiges break (important to study this no doubt), one can also study devotee couples and analyse why marraiges work. Then try to imbibe the positives from their relationship.
Pls dont reach this conclusion not to marry, or not to marry devotee girl. Why not marry devotee girl, and both embark on the journey back home, back to Krsna together, helping each other and always keeping the focus that this marraige is to make spiritual progress. There will be problems no doubt, depend on Krsna at those times and He will show you the way. It works, it really does.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Rashmi
Hare Krsna! PAMHO,AGTSP
I am reproducing some analysis relevant to above discussion.
To get married is easy, to stay married to the same person is difficult and to stay happily married to the same person is even more difficult. But the difficulties in our relationships help us go deeper and search for meaning and purpose in our lives.To help relationships flourish, right from the day of marriage and throughout our lives, we have to base these relationships on higher principles. Sometimes we like each other and sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we are happy, at other times we are angry. The ego is flickering and the mind is even more wavering, and the senses are always agitated. If our relationship is based on these superficial standards of body, mind or ego, then our relationship has not much substance. However if we harmonize and adjust our circumstances to higher principles we will be happy. For example, one such principle is‘forget it’. When you are married, you live with another ego, and when two egos live close to each other it’s natural to expect conflicts and disagreements. During disputes, remember the‘forget it’ principle. Remember the conflict isn’t important but the higher principle of helping each other, love God and be instruments of God’s love in this world is more sacred.There is more to marriage than romance. Romance in a marriage comes and goes.
It’s the heart to heart connection to a higher sense of responsibility that keeps the spark in a relationship burning. Then even the difficulties provide rich lessons to serve together.The higher spiritual principle of marriage is seen in the vows the couple takes. Traditionally marriages are held in a temple or a place of worship so that the Lord sees us His devotees take the vow and that helps the couple center their lives on service to God and humanity. Mother nature teaches us that the best of all jewels, the diamond and gold, are purified when put under high pressure or fire. Similarly by faithfully passing through the good and the bad times; the easy and hard times and being with each other and for each other, that’s what marriage is meant to be. And internalizing this principle transforms marriage into a sacred act and makes one spiritually perfect.
Each of the partners in marriage considers the other to be a child of God, entrusted in his or her care. How you treat your partner is how God will receive you; how you speak, treat and protect each other on the physical, emotional and spiritual level is how you will make spiritual progress.The foundational structure of a spiritual marriage is ‘respect’, ‘forgiveness’, ‘appreciation’ for each other, and the serious responsibility to make the other person happy.Its practice of these principles that could make married life also a divine, spiritual experience.
Hare Krishna.
your servant
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