if I am not wrong, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was known as "Swami Krsnachaitanya Bharati" and he took initiation under Swami Keshava Bharati, who was a dasanami sannyasa (Shankaracharya Parampara). So does ISKCON also come under the dasanami sampradaya? Then why does Iskcon claim that it belongs to the Madhava Sampradaya? what are the proofs for that? I've heard that he ONLY took mantra initiation from a Madhava, but not a sannyasa initiation.
I've also heard many claims of ISKCONites that he defeated the Advaitins of his time, but why didn't he debate with this person named "Sridhara Svami" (also an Advaitin) whom he called "Jagadguru" and from whom he truly understood Srimad Bhagavatham? And also if he intends to oppose Advaita, then why did he even take initiation from a Dasanami?
Please correct me if I am wrong.
hare krsna.
Replies
Sampradaya is by diksa, not by sannyasa.
Sri Caitanya didn't debate with Sridhara Svami becase of the time gap.
The Svami was not a real Advaitin. If he would be one, his SB commentary wouldn't be revered by our acaryas.
The connection of Gaudiyas to Madhva sampradaya is basically thru two acaryas: Laksmipati Tirtha and later Baladeva Vidyabhusana who also compiled the parampara list seen in BGAII.
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Following up the deleted question "Chaitanya Charitamrita and Srimad Bhagavatam":
Secular scholars speculate that Upanisads are "added late" but Vaisnavas accept the sastra: SB 10.8.45, 10.45.33, 12.13.1.
As understood from Kurma Purana 52.19-20, originally there were 1,130 Upanisads. Most of them got lost in time.
Hari Hari
ys J.
Hare Krsna
So does ISKCON also come under the dasanami sampradaya?
No
Why does Iskcon claim that it belongs to the Madhava Sampradaya?
Because Iskcon parampara is Shiksha parampara and not Diksha parampara.
what are the proofs for that?
The philisophy of Acintya Bhedabheda tattva includes the dwaita philosophy. What kind of proof are you looking for ?
I've heard that he ONLY took mantra initiation from a Madhava, but not a sannyasa initiation.but not a sannyasa initiation.
Correct.
why didn't he debate with this person named "Sridhara Svami"
Lord Sri Chaitanya never debated with anyone after He left His native Bengal. He was too absorbed in Sri Krsna's transcendental names, qualities and pastimes to participate in any debate.
paramārtha-vicāra gela, kari mātra ‘vāda’
kāhāṅ mukti pāba, kāhāṅ kṛṣṇera prasāda
The atheists, headed by the Māyāvādī philosophers, do not care for liberation or Kṛṣṇa’s mercy. They simply continue to put forward false arguments and countertheories to atheistic philosophy, not considering or engaging in spiritual matters ( CC Madhya 25.43)
parama kāraṇa īśvara keha nāhi māne
sva-sva-mata sthāpe para-matera khaṇḍane
Of the philosophers mentioned, none really cares for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes. They are always busy refuting the philosophical theories of others and establishing their own. ( CC Madhya 25.55)
if he intends to oppose Advaita, then why did he even take initiation from a Dasanami?
Lord Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu's goal was not to defeat Advaitavada . Defeating Mayavada philosophically was already done by Sri Madhvacarya, much earlier than Lord Chaitanya appeared. He intended to give Krsna Prema to anyone and everyone. Lord Sri Chaitanya however identified the stumbling blocks on the path of bhakti. Mayavada philosophy was one of it.
The purpose of accepting sannyasa was to spread the holy names of Sri Krsna. Bharati and Saraswati were the most respected lineage during the time of Sri Chaitanya. It helped Lord Chaitanya's purpose of spreading the holy names of Sri Krsna.
Hare Krsna
Lord Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu's goal was not to defeat Advaitavada.
But then, why did he accept the dasanami lineage?
Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's goal was not to defeat Advaitavada.
Then why did he accept the commentaries of Sridhara Svami? His commentaries will of course be Advaitic and inline with Shankara's world view
The philosophy of Acintya Bhedabheda tattva includes the dwaita philosophy. What kind of proof are you looking for?
dvaita does not (completely) agree with bhedha abheda, right? There is no concept of Advaita in Madhava's Dvaita but Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepts Advaita (upto some extent) and the tilaka, Central deities, and prayers are all different in both the sampradayas right?
Here are the other differences I find:
- As far as I know, Madhava sampradaya does not include worship of Radharani and the central deities of their Sampradaya are Sriman Narayana and Mahalakshmi, but I've never saw the worship of the "form" Sriman Narayana and Mahalakshmi done by iskconites
- Here Sriman Narayana is considered to be an avatar of Krishna and Madhavas consider Krishna to be an avatar of Narayana
- ISKCON believes Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as an avatar of Krishna. The Tattvavad does not recognize Chaitanya as the avatar of Krishna, since Chaitanya is not listed by either Lord Vedavyasa or Sripad Madhvacharya in the shastras as the avatar of God.
(Please correct me if I am wrong)
Keeping the differences aside, I find no convincing reason to believe that ISKCON belongs to the Madhava Lineage. Let him oppose and refute the Advaita philosophy, but He belonged to the Dasanami order, This is a fact. So, obviously his students, and present-day ISKCONites will also be a part of the dasanami order. How can one belong to Madhava and DAsanami at the same time?
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna
why did he accept the dasanami lineage?
Not familiar with the term dasanami. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Harinam initiation from Ishvarapuri because Sri Ishvarapuri was coming in the bonafide vaishnava Sampradaya. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Sannyasa from Sri Keshava Bharati Maharaj to spread the Chanting of the holy names.
why did he accept the commentaries of Sridhara Svami?
Any commentary that is in-line with the original vedic scriptures is acceptable. Mayavada philosophy like Saririka Bhasya is imaginary concoction with twisted meanings & interpretations. The mayavada interpretation given by Sri Adi Shankaracarya is not acceptable.
dvaita does not (completely) agree with bhedha abheda, right?
Dvaitavada emphasizes on acceptance of differences between the jivatma and paramatma. This is acceptable.
but Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepts Advaita
Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in line with the Vedic Authority - Srila Vyasadeva, accepted that the jivatma and paramatma are both Sat-cit-ananda.
Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu highly comdemned the mayavada Philosophy.
I find no convincing reason to believe that ISKCON belongs to the Madhava Lineage
Nobody here has any problem in anyone else's belief. Life goes on. I do have a problem if someone wants to impose bogus philosophies on others.
So, obviously his students, and present-day ISKCON will also be a part of the dasanami order.
An individual at best can decide what he/she can be part of.
How can one belong to Madhava and DAsanami at the same time?
Founder of Iskcon His Divine Grace Abhaya Charanarvinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is a bonafide acarya in the Brahma-Madhva-Gauidya Guru Shishya parampara.
Hare Krsna
Not familiar with the term dasanami.
Dasanami order was established by Adi-Shankaracharya. Whoever belongs to the dasanami order, belongs to his parampara.
Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Harinam initiation from Ishvarapuri.
It was only the mantra initiation, but not sanyasa initiation. A person may have many gurus (for yoga, mantra etc.. but won't come under thier lineage). It is like I study Math, physics and Chemistry from 3 different teachers, but I will be identified with the college i Study in, and not the teachers.
Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Sannyasa from Sri Keshava Bharati Maharaj
again, Sri Keshava Bharati was a dasanami sanyasi, or in your terms, A mayavadi. So, It is very very clear that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also belonged to the Shankara order.
Dvaitavada emphasizes on acceptance of differences between the jivatma and paramatma. This is acceptable.
Didn't answer the question. Madhava's philosophy is Kevala Dvaita (complete dvaita) but the philosophy of ISKCON is not kevala dvaita. If ISKCON really belonged to Madhava Sampradaya. then it must also follow Kevala Dvaita, not Bheda Abheda.
Nobody here has any problem in anyone else's belief. Life goes on. I do have a problem if someone wants to impose bogus philosophies on others.
The doubt is not cleared. How can one convince me if ISKCON really belongs to the Brahma-Madhava Sampradaya? It is because I wanted to take initiation from ISKCON and I find these many confusions regarding the guru-shishya parampara. I also asked many authentic Madhavas and none of them accepted ISKCON to be part of their parampara.
Founder of Iskcon His Divine Grace Abhaya Charanarvinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada is a bonafide acarya in the Brahma-Madhva-Gauidya Guru Shishya parampara.
Again, Svami KrishnaChaitanya Bharati (aka Chaitanya Mahaprabhu) was a dasanami. Prabupada is also a student of chaitanya mahaprabhu right? So he too will be of the dasanami order, and not the brahma-madhava sampradaya (please correct me if i am wrong).
please look at his name again, Svami KrishnaChaitanya Bharati. This title "bharati" is given to the dasanami monks (of Shankaracharya lineage).
Also do ISKCON devotees have a picture of Madhavacharya along with thier former gurus? (just asking)
Hare Krsna
HareKrsna
I will be identified with the college i Study in, and not the teachers.
This is not applicable in Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya. The Disciplic Succession in Vaishnava Sampradaya is always the linkages betwee guru and Shishya. Not any institution. Sannyasa is just development in order or ashrama, which is more of a social order. Harinama Diksha is a change from material to spiritual.
Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also belonged to the Shankara order.
By that logic even Sri Madhwacarya would be of a different lineage. Please check who was Sannyasa and diksha guru of Sri Madhwacarya.
Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu clearly stated His own disciplic succession. We cannot decide anyone else's parampara. We either accept it or reject it. And in Gaudiya parampara, it is based on acceptance of teachings and imparting of teachings. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu whole heartedly rejected the interpretations of Sri Adi Shankaracarya.
How can one convince me if ISKCON really belongs to the Brahma-Madhava Sampradaya?
It cannot be done through logic and aguments or Historical analysis. The way to do it is to study the primary teachings, practice, conduct and realize.
I also asked many authentic Madhavas and none of them accepted ISKCON to be part of their parampara.
Please refer to the disciplic succession of HDG Srila Prabhupada. The connection to Madhwa Sampradaya is many centuries old. How will they know ? You are approaching this issue as if it is a legal dispute case of who should inherit the ancestral property. This apprach will only lead to more confusion. Because this is not a matter of logic or history or proof, it is matter of future.
ISKCON devotees have a picture of Madhavacharya along with thier former gurus?
Why ISKCON, even Gaudiya Math which is predecessor of Iskcon has deities of Madhwacarya. Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math in Puri, Orissa and Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math in Mayapur, West bengal both have worshippable deities of madhwacarya, adjacent to the main temple of Sri Radha Krishna.
I wanted to take initiation from ISKCON
Iskcon is an organization. An organization does not give initiaiton. A guru gives an initiation. Please approach a guru within Iskcon, they should be a able to help you. Initiation is a matter of heart, submission, dedication.
Please correct me if i am wrong
The statements given are certainly incorrect. The parampara under which Iskcon has been established is Brahma-Madhwa-Gaudiya Guru Shishya Sampradaya. Nothing in this creation is capable of even slightly wavering this truth.
Hare Krsna
All Hare Krishna know answer to this more or less. Back then it was cemermonial to take initiation in shankracharya as it was the 'in' thing to do. Otherwise you were not respected as a sanyasi. So it was like that. Though later on after mahaprabhu defeated many in debate he went to madhva sampradaya. Moslty because its in line with pure-bhakti. That was His purpose all along. Its kinda of a simple thing. Dont complicate it. :)