My obeisances to all deovtees !
Lord Shiva is said to be "Param Vaishanav", then why his devotees take all sort of intoxications.
In a discussionn with one of my relative, she said that Lord Shiva is a Vaisnav as well as a "Kapalik" .
This discussion touched no depth and still unresolved. My that relative says that Lord Shiva is the Supreme and none other above him. In some TV serial it was being narrated that Lord Vishnu and Brahma can not even understand Shiva without his mercy.
I reffered her Shrimadbhagwadgita and Brahma Samhita to know the truth but i found that not only she but people in general are just sufferring from favoritism.
All these statements are just illusionary.
Please put some light on it. How to deliver the true knowledge of these spiritual facts?
II Isvarah Parmah Krishnah, Saccidanand vigraha,
Anadir-Adi Govindah, Sarv Karan Karanam II
Jai Gurudev, jai Gauranga !
Replies
hare krishna pr ji dandvat pranam
"
hare krishna mata ji dandavat
a vaishnava should not consider vishnu equal to shiva ,if he say so its certainly a offense .the puran you have quoted above is from shiva puran.
indeed he is most powerful of the demigods but can never be equal to vishnu
as he himself says in padam puran "Shiva replied,"Those Persons who,deluded by ignorace,describw any other deity being superior to Vishnu,The Lord of the world, are said to be Pasandis. Those who,although they do not belong to the Vanaprastha asrama, use skulls, decorate their bodies with ashes and bones, have non-Vedic marks, matted hair, and wear garments of tree bark, are said to be pasandis"
and why he said to be supreme in shiva puran he himself says"Parvati said,"O lord,O best of gods,I want to ask you something secret. Through love for me,please answer. I have a great doubt.The sastras condemn using skulls, dercorating the body with ashes, and wearing skins of animals. Yet,you do all these things. Why are these thing condemned? O Lord of the gods, O highly intelligent one, due to women's natural fickleness I am asking you these questions. It may be that due to your great power you do not have to follow the sastric injunctions you just described, but previously you had not instructed me in this way. Therefore,O lord, please pardon my question."
Inquired thus by Pavati in that lonely place free from people,Lord Shiva explained to her the great secrets of his own behaviour. Shiva said, "O Goddess, please listen carefully. I shall tell you a very wonderful secret. You should not repeat what I am about to tell you to common people. I shall tell you the since your body is not separate form mine. Long ago, in the age of Swayambhuva Manu, there were many great demons like Namuchi [The demon Namuchi is described in Shrimad Bhagavatam 8.11.23-40.] who were very powerful and valorous heroes. All of them were devoted to Vishnu, acted purely, and were free from all sins. They followed the pratices laid down in the Vedas. Seeing this, all of gods head by Indra were greatly frustrated. Overcome by fear,they approached Lord Vishnu and took shelter of Him.
"The devas said,'O Kesava, only You can conqeur these great demons who cannot be conqured by all of the gods and who have washed off their sins with penance.'"
Lord Shiva continued, "Hearing the frightful words of the demigods, Lord Vishnu, Purushottma consoled the devas,and said to me,'O Rudra,O you of might arms, O you who are the best of the gods, for the purpose of deluding the enemies of the demigods prepere a course of conduct to be followed by pasandis. Narrate to them the dark puranas, which will take them astray. O intelligent one, you should create holy texts that will cause the demons to become confused.
"'Through devotion to Me,and for the good of the world, You should approach atheistic sages such as Kanada, Gautama,Sakti, Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila,[not to be confused with Kapila,the son of Devahuti], Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava, and Jamadagni. Exert upon them your power of suggestion. Being infused by your power they will become powerful pasandis. There is no doubt about it. Empowered by you, these brahmanas will narrate to the three worlds the Puranas and doctrines in the mode of ingnorance. O Shiva, on your person you should bear symbols like a skull, animal skins, ashes, and bones. Dressed in way you should fully delude everyone in the three Worlds. You should also inaugurate the pasupata order [The pasupates are a group of followers of Lord Shiva] with its divisions like kankala, saiva, pasanda and mahasaiva. Through these persons you should preach a doctrine whose followers wear no particular identifying marks and are outside the Vedic fold. Wearing ashes and bones, they will be bereft of higher consciousness and will consider you to be the greatest god.
"'Taking to these doctrines, all of these demons will become averse to Me in a moment.There is no doubt it. O powerful Rudra,in every age in My different incarnations I too shall worship you to delude the demons. Following these doctrines,they will undoubtedly fall down.'"
Lord Shiva then told Parvati, "O beautiful one, after hearing Lord Vishnu's words, although I am a good speaker I become helpless snd silent.Then offering my obeisances to Lord Vishnu, I said, O Lord,if I do what You have said,it will certainly lead to my destruction. It is is not possoble for me to carry out this instrustion, yet Your order is not to be disobeyed. This is very Painful."
"O goddess,hearing my words, Vishnu spkoke in such way to restore my happiness. He said,'This will not be the cause of your destruction. Do as I order you for the good of the demigods. I shall also give you the means to maintain yourself while you are preaching these demoniac philosophies. Then with compassion, Lord Vishnu gave me the prayers known as Vishnu-sahasra-nama. Vishnu said,'Installing Me in your heart, utter My indestructible mantra. This very powerful six-syllable mantra is transcendental and awards liberation to thise who worship Me with devotion. There is no doubt about this.'"
he furthur says in skand purana
"
siva-sastresu tad grahyam
bhagavac-chastra-yogi yat
paramo visnur evaikas
taj jnanam moksa-sadhanam
sastranam nirnayas tv
esas tad anyan mohanaya hi. iti.
ata - therefore; uktam - said; skande - in the Skanda Purana; sanmukham - Karttikeya; prati - to; sri-sivena - by Lord Siva; siva - of Siva; sastresu - in the scriptures; tat - that; grahyam - to be accepted; bhagavac-chastra-yogi - appropriate for the scriptures of Lord Visnu; yat - what; paramah - Supreme; visnuh - Lord Visnu; eva - indeed; ekah - one; taj - that; jnanam - knowledge; moksa-sadhanam - bringing liberation; sastranam - of scriptures; nirnayah - the conclusion; tv - indeed; esah - this; tat - that; anyan - another; mohanaya - for bewilderment; hi - indeed; iti - thus.
In the Skanda Purana, Lord Siva tells Karttikeya:
The statements of the Siva scriptures should be accepted only when they agree with the Visnu scriptures. Lord Visnu is the only Supreme Lord, and knowledge of Him is the path to liberation. That is the conclusion of all the scriptures. Any other conclusions are meant only to bewilder the people.
"
what is the actual position of lord shiva is told here in
"Lord Shiva has a very unique and significant position in the cosmic manifestation. In fact Lord Shiva is the most powerful, second only to Lord Vishnu. Shiva is an expansion of Lord Krishna. Revealed scriptures explain that Krishna has 64 qualities. Lord Brahma posses 78% of these qualities and Lord Shiva possesses 84% of these qualities. Since living entities are also like Brahma so they also possess 78% of these qualities but in lesser extent. None of them possess all 100%.
The scriptures like Srimad – Bhagavatam, Brahma – samhita, Padma – Purana etc. explains the position of Lord Shiva in this universe.
(Reference: Self – Manager by H.G. Radheshyam Prabhu, President Iskcon Pune)
Braham Samhita (verse 10) clearly establishes that Lord Shiva derives his power from Lord Vishnu, “The person embodying the material causal principle, viz., the great lord of this mundane world [Maheshvara] Shambhu, in the form of the male generating organ, is joined to his female consort, the limited energy [Maya] as the efficient causal principle. The Lord of the world Maha-Vishnu is manifest in him by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.”
Lord Shiva is neither an avatara nor avesha and is also not in between them. Lord Shiva is the greatest demigod, even greater than Lord Brahma. He is the spiritual master of the entire universe. He has his own spiritual line (sampradaya) called the Rudra – sampradaya. At present this sampradaya is represented by Vishnusvami-sampradaya, or the Vallabha-sampradaya"
srila Prabhupad about the postion of Lord shiva
"
(ROOM CONVERSTATION, CHICAGO, 9TH JULY 1975)
Devotee: Shrila Prabhupada, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Siva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower—and so were her parents—of Lord Siva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gita. He visits our
temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Siva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Krishna is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Siva is a very great devotee of Krishna. So he has now interpreted that
to mean that if he worships Lord Siva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Krishna more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually...
Prabhupada: Difficulty?
Brahmananda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Krishna says, "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Siva is the devotee of Krishna. So therefore this man says, "Then I shall worship Lord Siva. In that way I shall please Krishna."
Prabhupada: But if he accepts Lord Siva is devotee of Krishna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited.
Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krishna, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming.
Prabhupada: No, vaishnavanam yatha sambhuh: "Amongst the Vaishnavas, Sambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaishnava." So we worship Lord Siva as Vaishnava. We gives respect to Vaishnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaishnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krishna will be pleased. Devotee (3): Shrila Prabhupada, he does not chant Hare Krishna, he chants Om Namah Shivaya
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Devotee (3): It's all right?
Prabhupada: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.
Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Krishna. He has tried already. He has a taste for...
Prabhupada: If he simply understands that Lord Siva is a Vaishnava and if he worships Lord Siva, then he will get the benefit.
"
THE LINKS ON-------LORD SHIVA.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krsna-conscious-links/forum/t...
TEACHINGS FROM THE SHIVA PURANA.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
II Vanchha Kalpatarubyashch, kripasindhubya ev ch,
Patitanam paavanebhyoh, Vaishnavebhyoh namo namah II
Dandavat to all Vaishnavas !
It's been pretty nice discussion so far. I Learnt lot of new things and facts. Believe me this discussion was also active outside this forum. By the mercy of Shril Prabhupada & all fellow devotees on this forum, now I am in a position to answer this question to any one.
There should be no doubt towards the words of Supreme personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. There is only he who could deliver Arjuna the true knowledge. We all know that it was first delivered to Suryadev (Vivswan) and eternally it has been delivered by The Supreme Lord and none other deity.
Lord Shiva is the formost Vaishnav we all know pretty well. Before explaining this i would seek thousand apologies. Shobana Mata ji said "Lord Brahmna got furious that his temper built so much force like a nuclear reactor in the mid of his eye brows it spurred out and Lord Siva was born"
This is very true about the emergence of lord Shiva but, i would like to say that The Supreme Lord incarnated as 'Varaha' when Brahma sniffed he came out of his nose. This fact doesn't indicate that Brahma is the Originator of 'Lord Varaha'. Same way he could not be said the Originator of Lord Shiva because Lord Shiva is an another expansion of Supreme Lord Shri Krishna. Moreover Brahma is said to be "Pratham Jeev" that means a living entity and Lord Shiva is not like him being an expansion of Supreme Lord.
Now, how to convince Shaivaites is another phase of discussion. We know that there are four kind of school of thoughts (Sampradaya) Brahm vaisnav, Kumar Vaisnav, Rudra vaishnav and Shri Vaishnav. These four school of thoughts are the official seal to our Vedic scriptures after Supreme Lord himself and Shrila Vedvyasa. The scriptures which have been authenticated by any of these four Sampradaya is the only authentic scripture and others are all stuff and rubbish. Nowadays we see there are many kinds of version available throughout but no one knows about the authenticated one. The main thing in this paragraph is that all these four Sampradaya have mentioned Shri Krishna as The Supreme Personality of Godhead . This is the clear authentication. I appreciate Anirudh Shetty Prabhu that he suggested to ask for the source base.
Another thing is , if people think that Shiva is supreme then why only Shrimadbhagwatam and Shrimadbhagwadgita is considered to be the holiest book of Hindus througout the universe by all religions? and why not Shiv Puran? This explains the supremacy of Krishna.
Last but not the least, it might have been possible that Bhrigu & Daksh cursed Lord Shiva that his follower will deviate and copy him but, as Lord shiva is an expansion of Supreme Lord he is beyond any Curse, he is also called "Trigunateet" .
Its human tendency to make excuses or to twist the things around in their favor to be benfitted. If a drunkard is sad he will drink, even he is happy he will again drink. similarly if a drunkard is a follower of Shiva he will put an excuse that Lord Shiva also takes intoxication. We often see that many Tantrik & Aghoris claims bhang and Chilam as the prasadam of Shiva. This is the tendency of a fallen soul to make excuses. People also think that they are the best and whomever they worship is the supreme. Do you agree?
I apologige to all my fellow Vaisnavas if i said anything offensive.
II Krishnaya Vasudevaya haraye Parmatmane,
Pranat klesh nashaya, Govidaya Namo namah II
Nitai Gaur Premanande !
hare krsna
pahmo
lord shiva is the top most vaishnav one cannot imitate the mahjans durin- the samudhra manthan lord shiva consumed
poision so lord shiva is known as neelkantha if devotees of shiva take a drop of poison they will immediately die
there are many puranas for people accordin- to the modes of nature mostly devotees of shiva pray for some material benecdition lord shivas another name is asutosh he is easily pleased there are many pastimes in which lord shivas devotees pray for material benediction you can refer from krsna book and bha-hvatham hare krsna
Vaisnavas can pray to Lord Siva for his blessings to become better Vaisnava. I will be shortly uploading the Story of Tulasi Devi, where there is an interaction between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu where all your doubts will be quelled.
About him being accessed by people in the mode of ignorance. Srila Prabhupada and our sastras say that Lord Siva out of compassion for the being in the mode of ingonrance associates with them and engages them in his service. But that does not mean his devotees include only people in the mode of ignorance.
Anybody can approach him. He is Asutosa, very easily pleased. We have seen many times Demons and other people perform penances to please him and Lord Brahma to get a strong benediction.
Also if you have the KRSNA Book(If you don't have one buy it!!) There is a story of Usha marries Aniruddha. There is a fight between Lord Siva and Lord Krishna. But instead of focusing on the outcome of the battle(Lord Krishna Wins), there are some nice prayers exchanged and glories of Lord Siva and his glories are spoken about.
Also, the Ganges falls on Lord Siva's head, and the Ganges originates from the Lotus feet of Lord Visnu!
Whenever anyone ell you anything ask them for their source, base. Whatever is spoken should be spoken in disciplic succession, and from the sastras.
Prabhu who is in charge of Sacrameto Iskcon he got started on a spiritual path where the devotees worshiped Lord Shiva.
He used to ask Lord Shiva, to lead him to the Supreme personality of Godhead and he was lead to Krishna by Lord Shiva.
Unfortuanate thing with most devotees of Lord Shiva is that they dont ask the right questions most of the time. They ask for useless material things and wellbeing of the prison our spirit soul lives in.
If you can get them to ask Lord Shiva, "Lord, show me who the supreme God is and lead me to him", then they will be drawn to Krishna.
Hare Krishna,
We all know that Lord Siva is greatest Vaishnava. He is dearmost to Lord Krishna.
He is not ordinary like jiva atmas. He is not just a demi god. It is very difficult to understand 'Shiva tattva'. Only the pure devotees of Lord Vishnu/Krishna can understand His real position.
Lord Shiva is very merciful, he takes care of people who are even most fallen, involved in intoxication, have demonic nature etc. But it does not mean that He is impure. He is purest of the pure. He is one of the original spiritual master for spreading Krishna bhakti. He is the source of Rudra Sampardaya.
Jai Shri Krishna..
Dear Mataji dandavat pranam, if SP had said that then I humbly request your forgiveness and you have not offended me in any way. When you have the time and you do remember the article..please be as kind as to forward the link so that I can clear my mind of any confusion.
Regarding lord Shiva taking Intoxication he does not do such daily only once At the time of disturction and that also to get that mood.Regarding his followers they all were cursed by brhigu risi & daksha prajapati that they all will get deviated from the vedic path and will copy him.
For your relatives give them krishna parsad to houner ,take them to the temple let them have darshan of sweet lord and most importantly give them books of Srila prabhupada to read.
Dear Mataji,
Dandavat Pranam..
In all aspects of your argument.. you are right.. but please rectify the mistake of stating "Lord Shiva is generally the demigod to go to for people in the mode of ignorance." I know that it was just a mistake and that you know that Lord Shiva's position is higher then the Demigods.
Its also futile explaining to people who will only blaspheme the name of the Lord. In this regard its Namapradha and Shravan Prabhu is correct.
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