I am new to this, is Krishna God like the God the Christians and Jews worship? Is Krishna just another word for God?
Thanks
David
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I am new to this, is Krishna God like the God the Christians and Jews worship? Is Krishna just another word for God?
Thanks
David
You need to be a member of ISKCON Desire Tree | IDT to add comments!
Replies
Only a fool would take things literally. Rupam definitely means form. But when achintya is used along with rupam, one would contemplate and come to the conclusion that usually forms can be imagined, but an unthinkable-form (achintya rupam) cannot be imagined, because such a form is NO form at all. Such a form can't possibly exist if it cannot be imagined. Krishna's words are not easy to understand. This is why Arjuna was puzzled by HIS explanations.
Hare Krsna
An unthinkable-form (achintya rupam) cannot be imagined, because such a form is NO form at all.
Again minsinterprtations here. Acintya Rupam means inconceivable form.
Inconceivable form is not NO form. Inconceivable form means Form which cannot be conceived. Just because it cannot be conceived, it doesn't make it formless.
If it was the case Krsna would have stated it. But Krsna doesn;t say that. He says inconceivable form.So it refers to a form which cannot be conceived. Not a formless that cannot be conceived or inconceivable formless. It is inconceivable form.
Hare Krsna
If it was the case Krsna would have stated it. But Krsna doesn't say that.
God speaks in many ways.
You can't expect Him to be always direct or expect him to be always speaking in plain simple words.
In earlier chapters, on one hand HE was explaining the importance of Bhakti and on the other hand He was explaning the practices of kundalini/ashtanga yoga. Bcoz of this Arjuna was confused. Now here also two words are used. Any ordinary man would be confused. But if one thinks deeply, the only explanation of this would be the one which i stated above.
If you really think such a un-imaginable "form" actually exists, of which we have never heard before, then why didn't Krishna explain it to Arjuna. I mean if it's a special kind of Lord's form , which even being a "form" cannot be concieved , then it's ought to be explained by the Lord right? But HE didn't explain about it any further, this implies he was speaking of his Brahman state (already known to the wise and learned humans who were present back then).
Hare Krsna
If you really think such a un-imaginable "form" actually exists, of which we have never heard before, then why didn't Krishna explain it to Arjuna.
Krsna gave direct darshan of His forms to arjuna. Krsna showed Arjuna the universal form, Krsna showed Arjuna His four handed form. Then Krsna showed Arjuna His two handed form. After that Krsna says this -
su-durdarśam idaṁ rūpaṁ
dṛṣṭavān asi yan mama
The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am. (BG 11.53)
Krsna directly manifested His inconceivable form to Arjuna live. That is what BG is all about. It is not about formless as the mayavadis say.
which we have never heard before
Here it is
īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
Is this the first time the above verse is being read. But mayavadi cannot understand it. Krsna says why. Because the mayavadis always misintrepret any scripture they come across, so they cannot understant it. Krsna also tells about this in BG.
My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.(11.54)
My dear Arjuna, he who engages in My pure devotional service, free from the contaminations of fruitive activities and mental speculation, he who works for Me, who makes Me the supreme goal of his life, and who is friendly to every living being – he certainly comes to Me.(11.55)
Mayavadis can never understand it because they are busy mental speculating. Krsna says only by pure devotional service can Krsna be know as He is.
This is the biggest problem of mayavadis - They are not qualified to perceive the transcendental form of Krsna. As a consequence of that they mentally speculate on all scriptures and call formless state as highest manifestation.
No the supreme transcendental Perosnality of Krsna is the highest manifestation of Para Brahma Bhagavan.
Hare Krsna
Yes i agree HIS universal form cannot be conceived by us.
BUT ...
first read the whole translation of verse 8.9 by SP -
One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows
everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun, and He is transcendental, beyond this material nature.
Here "one should meditate upon" has been used in the translation. I'm not taking the meditation part literally ok. Krishna simply means one should either meditate or think of HIM as the source of everything ... Tell me now, can the yogis meditate upon his universal form? ... Krishna himself said in verse 11.53 as you quoted above, that his universal form cannot be understood by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship.
So when Krishna used words like achintya rupam in v8.9 , he wasn't talking about his universal form. Since the universal form cannot be meditated upon by the yogis or cannot be thought of by the bhaktaas or any ordinary men (as told by Krishna).
Another thing, in the second last sentence of verse 8.9 , SP used these words-
"...who is always a person"
Now these are extra words added by Prabhupada. There are no sanskrit words in verse 8.9 that says "who is always a person."
This is the reason why i'm upset. It should be AS IT IS. No additions or alterations should be done in Krishna's verses. And yet this is the case. Really sad.
Hare Krsna
Tell me now, can the yogis meditate upon his universal form? ... Krishna himself said in verse 11.53 as you quoted above, that his universal form cannot be understood by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship
These words only show the lack of basic understanding of BG, here is why
1. There is no discussion of meditation on universal form in 8.9. It refers to meditation on any of Krsna's personal forms as described in purport of 8.8.
2. In verse 11.53 Krsna is not speaking about His universal form. he is speaking about His two handed form. This is because in verse 11.50 Sanjaya confirms that Krsna manifested His four handed form and then two handed form. So 11.53 refers not to universal form bu two handed form.
The amount of confusion is simply unbelievable.
in the second last sentence of verse 8.9 , SP used these words- "...who is always a person". Now these are extra words added by Prabhupada. There are no sanskrit words in verse 8.9 that says "who is always a person."
Again and again such accusations only point to ignorance and fault finding mentality towards Srila prabhupad. There is no fault in Srila prabhupadas translation whatsoever. It is perfect. Here is why
Krsna uses the word - yah, yah means "one who" or "whosoever " When the word who is used obviously it implies it is a person. Hence Srila Prabhupad says who is always a person. There is nothing extra added by Srila prabhupada. He has only written what Krsna says. Hence it is Bhagavad Gita As it is.
This is the reason why i'm upset. It should be AS IT IS. No additions or alterations should be done in Krishna's verses. And yet this is the case. Really sad.
No the reason you are upset is the same reason why all the mayavadis are upset - Srila Prahupada has translated it As it is. It is exactly as Krsna has given to Arjuna. The problem is mayavadis misinterpret as it suits them. Srila Prabhupada doesn't.
No mayavadi can ever accept Srila prabhupada's translation and continue to be mayavadi. By reading BG as it is - Either that mayavadi has to give up mayavada and accept the pure teachings of Krsna or Get upset and thrashed by the pure teachings.
Param Vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam.
What about non partial analysis about this, having on mind original written Sanskrit :
Bg.11.50
Sañjaya said to Dhṛtarāṣṭra:
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, having spoken thus to Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna.
.
This verse is correctly translated.
We can see here in this verse, that Krishna showed His four armed form to encourage Ajuna to fight. Such 4 handed form is rarely seen even by the demigods, but His human form sow many different kind of people, animals such as cows, and sinful demons.
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Bg,11.51
When Arjuna thus saw Kṛṣṇa in His original form, he said: O Janārdana, seeing this humanlike form, so very beautiful, I am now composed in mind, and I am restored to my original nature.
.
''We can see here that ''When Arjuna thus sow Krishna in His original form'' and ''my mind is now pacified'' is added and doesn't exist in that verse. Beside that, ''restored to my original nature'' is incorrect translation.
Synonyms:
arjunaḥ uvāca — Arjuna said; dṛṣṭvā — seeing; idam — this; mānuṣam — human; rūpam — form; tava — Your; saumyam — very beautiful; janārdana — O chastiser of the enemies; idānīm — now; asmi — I am; saṁvṛttaḥ — settled; sa-cetāḥ — in my consciousness; prakṛtim — to my own nature; gataḥ — returned.
.
The correct translation, based on original Sanskrit, should be like this :
Arjuna said : Now seeing this humanlike form which is very beautiful, o Janardana, I am now settled in my natural consciousness.
So, we see here that Ajuna was in some kind of shock to see Krishnas 4 handed form, because he use to know Krishna in His beautiful 2 handed human form. That's why Ajuna came to His senses by seeing Krishna back again, the form which he use to associate with.
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Bg. 11.52
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is so dear.
.
That's also incorrect translation, but this time, with complete change of the original meaning of that verse .
Lets see that verse closely :
.
Synonyms:
śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; su-durdarśam — very difficult to see; idam — this; rūpam — form; dṛṣṭavān asi — as you have seen; yat — which; mama — of Mine; devāḥ — the demigods; api — also; asya — this; rūpasya — form; nityam — eternally; darśana-kāṅkṣiṇaḥ — aspiring to see.
.
Here we can clearly see that ''dṛṣṭavān asi'' means ''as you have seen'' , but its incorrectly translated in translation as ''seeing''. In this way, the readers have conclusion that Krishna now talks about His present human form, instead of His four handed form which Arjuna have seen moments ago.
The correct translation based on Sanskrit words should look like this :
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said:
Its very difficult to see the form which you have seen, even My demigods eternally desire to see it.
.
Its obvious that in this verse Krishna was talking about 4 handed form, which Arjuna have seen moments ago.
Anyway, one can always consult different Sanskrit experts or professors, for a another non partial opinion about all that.
Jaya Jaya Srila Prabhupad.
Hare Krsna
So is that the "non-partial" analysis of mayavadis with the consultation of different "sanskrit experts or professors" giving the conclusion - Its obvious that in this verse Krishna was talking about 4 handed form, which Arjuna have seen moments ago.
Lets expose the bogus translators, sanskrit experts and professors.
1. What do the sanskrit experts and professors say about the the words idam rupam used in the verse by Krsna in 11.52 ?
If your sanskrit experts and professors have any intelligence left they would agree that idam rupam means this form.
What is the form that Krsna is manifesting while he says verse 11.52 ? It is two handed form because it is confirmed by arjuna in verse 11.51
So Krsna while manifesting two handed form says Su-darshanam idam rupam - and your conclusion is -Its obvious that in this verse Krishna was talking about 4 handed form, which Arjuna have seen moments ago.
This the level of pathetic conclusions you get after "consultations with different sanskrit professors and experts".
It is so simple that even a small child can tell when anyone says idam rupam it means this form. Anyways this isn't the first time your pathetic bogus interpretations have been exposed to be incorrect. I hope you don't mind it again.
Param Vijayate Sri Krsna Sankirtanam
having a form although inconceivable means "always a person".
Contemplate a little please before you shoot off another repartee..
Sheeple like you would believe anything that they're being told.
"Oh our master SP says that men didn't go to the moon. And so i must blindly nod to what he says." lol
The task of contemplating is not for everybody you know. One needs a brain for that ... There are so many hidden meanings in the scriptures. Not just in Vedic ones but also in the Abrahamic scriptures. Unlike men of blind faith, men of wisdom would always take great pleasure in trying to find the deeper meanings, even if they fail to come to a final conclusion.
Krishna himself spoke of the speculative philosophers in Gita. Yes our path is slow and gradual, but we enjoy what we do.
Ever heard of Shankaracharya? According to him meditation, mantra japa, and contemplation are all means to achieve liberation.
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