Hare Krishna Prabhujis and Matajis.

I am from Surat, Gujarat.  My father and I have been member of ISKCON Surat since 15 years and my father was very dedicated towards ISKCON Surat and has been chanting rounds of Hare Krishna Mahamantra since last 15 years and also regularly attending ISKCON Sunday Feast and so am I.  But recently, my father was provided a copy of Satyarth Prakash by Dayanand Saraswati.  He is very much influenced by the book and is now confused whether the Supreme Lord is personal or impersonal.  As per Satyarth Prakash, the Supreme Lord is impersonal and Krishna and Rama were very intelligent human-beings.  My father is very much convinced by this and is very confused whether to believe ISKCON ideology or this Arya Samaj.  

I am very much convinced that the Krishna is the supreme Lord and no one is above or equal to him.  I have thoroughly read Bhagwad Gita-as it is, Krsna, Nector of Devotion and now reading Srimad Bhagvatam (reached Second Canto).  I have no doubt about the supremacy of Krishna.  Yesterday, I and my father had a very healthy discussion, you can call it debat, on personal feature of impersonal feature of Supreme Lord.  I want to further state that my father is well-versed with the ideology of ISKCON as he has been actively involved with the ISKCON, Surat since last 15 years and now he is so much convinced by the Arya Samaj Theory.  Father is still chanting his rounds but he tell me that he is not feeling any change by chanting hare krishna mahamantra.  However, earlier, say 6-7 years ago, he used to say that he has experienced very positive change after he started chanting hare krishna mahamantra.

My father told me that he is not aginst ISKCON ideology but actually confused about what is real and what is not.  So he says that he will do futher research in this matter.  I am so much in pain after seeing my father talk like this after having associated with ISKCON for 15 years.  Change in my father's thinking has not affected by faith in ISKCON and my faith that Krishna is everything and everything is Krishna.  

I even tried to explain him that Lord Krishna himself has said in Bhagwad Gita that he is the Surpeme Lord and not a blade of grass moves without his wish.  I even cited slokas from Brahma Samhita where Brahma ji cited that Govinda is the cause of all causes.  But he says that as per Satyarth Prakash, the shastras have been manipulated by the brahmanas and they are not 100% dependable.  He says that as per Vedas, God is impersonal and nowhere is it written that God has a shape.  That Krishna and Rama were great human personalities and the Shastra have been manipulated.

I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance.  Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking.  Please Help.

Hare Krishna

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                  • I don't have any personal grudge on you or neam karoli baba ji.

                    It is just my opinion it is upto ur discretion to take it or not take it.

                    Hare Krishna. 

  • Sevak

    Hare Krsna 

    Arjuna directly asks this to Sri Krsna in BG -  Which worship is better -  impersonal or personal ?

    Lord Sri Krsna has given a direct answer. - Worship of personal form is better. This should be sufficient for any person with brains. 

    arjuna uvāca
    evaṁ satata-yuktā ye
    bhaktās tvāṁ paryupāsate
    ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktaṁ
    teṣāṁ ke yoga-vittamāḥ

    Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? (BG 12.1)

    śrī-bhagavān uvāca
    mayy āveśya mano ye māṁ
    nitya-yuktā upāsate
    śraddhayā parayopetās
    te me yukta-tamā matāḥ

    The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. (BG 12.2)

    But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable – the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth – by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me. (12.3-4)

    kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām
    avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
    dehavadbhir avāpyate

    For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.( BG 12.5)


    Hare Krsna 

    • Sevak

      Hare Krsna 

      People who are in serious spiritual life follow path of bonafide sampradayas. Iskcon doesn't have its own ideology. Iskcon follows Brahma-madhwa-gaudiya Sampradaya.

      All these Arya Samaj etc are not bonafide. These are pseudo social institutions formed with political/ social motives during british times. They don't have any spiritual substance.

      Hare Krsna

  • Hare Krishna,

    After many many many life times one get an oppurtunity to become able to take Lord's name and one gets human birth to perform devotional service to Lord. You father really is a lucky man,  but he is foolishly and unecessarily leaning towards Mayavaad philosophy. Only one who has done vaishnava aparadh will lose the taste in KC.

    15 yrs of deity worship and still he never developed any attachement to the archa vigraha??? 

    First and foremost thing is this term " Idol worship" is wrong word. Our Lord is not just an idol like some Statue of Liberty or some Nehru or Gandhi satue. This is not  idol. This is having prana or life in it.

    This is archa vigraha. As when you chant and call Lord, offer bhog .. Lord really comes and sits there and has the bhog. This is not like some dead person's statue or idol. Prana Prathisthapan procedure is done to Archa Vigraha according to Shastras and They are not lifeless. They have life in them. This statues or idols of nehru gandhi etc. are dead people statues if u put food before them also the dead soul will never come back and eat food.

    Lord Shri Rama and Lord Sri Krishna are NOT  highly intelligient humans. They are divine personalities.

    You father and that Dayananada Saraswati are rightly VERY higly intelligient humans.. They are using stupid logical brain ( which weighs 3 pounds of flesh) to gauge Lord's potency. 

    our logics and our intellect is not even sufficient to even imagine Lord. We don't have so much capacity to think about HIM that is why we are so making some stupid theories and assumptions.

    Vedas says God is impersonal..so it doesn't mean Lord doesn't exist in His personal form.

    We have many instances and many leelas of Krishna and Rama who came personally to devotees and spoke out of Archa vigraha. 

    Yes Moorti pooja or idol worship is wrong If they are doing mooti pooja of dead people like Nehru, Gandhi, Amitab bachhan, Sachin tendulkar, Khusbhoo. etc. These are afterall humans. After death the soul leaves and takes up another body and there is no existence of these people at all.  But after Krishna's or Rama's dissappearance also we have seen many many instances where they showed devotees their presence by talking from the deity. Deity moving to places on itself. ( Sakshi Gopal leela).

    Sri Shakaracharya who advocated Advaitian philosophy itself finally accepted Krishna's Supremacy and sang many glorious songs on Krishna like " Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja moodha mate" and Govindaashtakam, Sri Krishna ashtakam.

    This "Tat tvam asi" and 'Aham Brahmasmi" is outdated concept. It was overruled later by Sri Ramanujacharya and Lord Sri Krishna Chaitnaaya Mahaprabhu. 

    God is present everywhere. In you in me in every place. But WE ARE NOT EQUAL TO GODS.

    God has 3 features. 1. Bhagawan ( personal form) 2. Parmatma form ( present in all beings)  3. Impersonal form ( omnipresent).

    Sun and sun's rays are not equal right?

    Sun is present? YES .. Sun's rays are illuminating whole world? YES

    where from sun's rays are emanating?? is the Sun's rays having some source?. YES

    That means Sun ( Bhagwan) personal feature is different from Sun's rays which are illuminating the whole world and present everywhere.

    Krishna is present as supersoul parmatma in our heart region HE ONLY TOLD THIS IN BG  " BG 15.15 "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness"

    Krishna is indicating that HE is supersoul (Paramatha)  seated in everyone's heart.

    Krishna says In BG " O son of Kuntī, I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable "oṁ" in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man." He is only OMkara which means He is even appearing as impersonal form as sound of OM riverberating whole universe ( Impersonal form Omni present)

    Krishna is Such a beautiful form we all know it. He is not life less neither his DEITY is lifeless. 

    Watch this vid. and think how deity can also has life and now say whether your father's ideas of  Krishna as intelligent human is suiting? Krishna can walk in deity form also 


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    • Hare Krishna.

      thank you for your answer.  You are right that deep inside, he still believes in Krishna and even he is doing his daily rounds now also. Actually he is not himself saying that krishna and rama were great human beings but was discussing with me about what arya samajis think sabout them and their philosophy.

      further all arguments and logics cited by devotee Gayatri above are already known to my father. He is actually in confused state of mind. He has ordered set of vedas from some arya samaji for reading.  As per arya samaji, no where in vedas it has been mentioned about krishna and personal form of krishna.  They says that Gita has been manipulated by the followers of krishna to show him as god and not all shlokas of gita are authentic.  They says that brahmanas have manipulated with the scriptures.

      however, this discussion with my father has not shaken my faith in krishna or gita or bhagwatam.

      but i am really in pain by seeing my father in such confused state as my father is also not defending arya samaj philosophy.  

      • Hare Krishna Kishan Patel Prabhu ji,

         I think people who are from iskcon address ladies as mata ji' s and men as prabhu jis'. Even a neophyte devotee is also addressed  in the same way. Isn't it? this is basic courtesy?


        What are you expecting from us?

        when you said -" I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance.  Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking.  Please Help."

        what kind of help we can give from online? 

        Should I also say I am terribly feeling sorry for your father's state, hope krishna makes him again a devotee?

        I think a person very rarely comes to Krishna consciousness and if he is going away losing faith in the personal form of krishna just because he read some non-believer's books ( after practising for 15 yrs KC) then hat means his faith is not 100%.  Any person can shake his belief easily isn't it.

        even if he chants its just a lip deep service but not heart deep. But still it is counted as Sri Krishna is highly merciful even if any person takes his name unknowingly or unknowingly also, with doubt or without doubt also, the name has potency to burn all sins.

        I am also feeling very bad seeing this situation that how anyone can lose faith after being in Krishna's service and after tasting the nectarian beauty of Krishna's lotus feet. 

        But serious offenses against vaishnavas is the major problem.

        I can only suggest you one thing. Please do tulasi mata pooja and daily do parikarma ( your father) offering it water. Atleast the Aparadh will be removed when tulasi mata gets pleased with the service. Only she can make him get back to KC.

        Hare Krishna

        • Hare krishna gayatri mataji, thanks for valuable suggestion.

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