Hare Krishna Prabhujis and Matajis.

I am from Surat, Gujarat.  My father and I have been member of ISKCON Surat since 15 years and my father was very dedicated towards ISKCON Surat and has been chanting rounds of Hare Krishna Mahamantra since last 15 years and also regularly attending ISKCON Sunday Feast and so am I.  But recently, my father was provided a copy of Satyarth Prakash by Dayanand Saraswati.  He is very much influenced by the book and is now confused whether the Supreme Lord is personal or impersonal.  As per Satyarth Prakash, the Supreme Lord is impersonal and Krishna and Rama were very intelligent human-beings.  My father is very much convinced by this and is very confused whether to believe ISKCON ideology or this Arya Samaj.  

I am very much convinced that the Krishna is the supreme Lord and no one is above or equal to him.  I have thoroughly read Bhagwad Gita-as it is, Krsna, Nector of Devotion and now reading Srimad Bhagvatam (reached Second Canto).  I have no doubt about the supremacy of Krishna.  Yesterday, I and my father had a very healthy discussion, you can call it debat, on personal feature of impersonal feature of Supreme Lord.  I want to further state that my father is well-versed with the ideology of ISKCON as he has been actively involved with the ISKCON, Surat since last 15 years and now he is so much convinced by the Arya Samaj Theory.  Father is still chanting his rounds but he tell me that he is not feeling any change by chanting hare krishna mahamantra.  However, earlier, say 6-7 years ago, he used to say that he has experienced very positive change after he started chanting hare krishna mahamantra.

My father told me that he is not aginst ISKCON ideology but actually confused about what is real and what is not.  So he says that he will do futher research in this matter.  I am so much in pain after seeing my father talk like this after having associated with ISKCON for 15 years.  Change in my father's thinking has not affected by faith in ISKCON and my faith that Krishna is everything and everything is Krishna.  

I even tried to explain him that Lord Krishna himself has said in Bhagwad Gita that he is the Surpeme Lord and not a blade of grass moves without his wish.  I even cited slokas from Brahma Samhita where Brahma ji cited that Govinda is the cause of all causes.  But he says that as per Satyarth Prakash, the shastras have been manipulated by the brahmanas and they are not 100% dependable.  He says that as per Vedas, God is impersonal and nowhere is it written that God has a shape.  That Krishna and Rama were great human personalities and the Shastra have been manipulated.

I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance.  Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking.  Please Help.

Hare Krishna

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  • So Bhagavad Gita has been manipulated but much older Vedas have not? I myself don't trust the scriptures very much; i trust my guru more: Neem Karoli Baba. Baba used to do miracles like resurecting a dead person, giving eyesight to blind, turning water into ghee, etc. and he used to encourage chanting God's name(s).

    He said "Ram's form left this world, Krishna's form left this world, but the name stays. By reciting his name, everything is achieved." Shaking his head, he reiterated, "Everything is achieved."

    Here's an incident related to Neem Karoli Baba:

    ~~~

    Kishan Lal Sah, a teacher from Ramgarh, Nainital often visited   Kainchi to have Baba's darshan. His devotion was such that Baba was both his guru and God.

    Inspite of his deep faith, Kishan Lal was feeling depressed. He was disturbed by the evil seen in the world and by his own lack of spiritual progress. One day he went to Kainchi with the thought of discussing the matter with Baba.

    When he arrived, Kishan Lal saw Baba sitting on one end of the wooden bridge over the river. He went to him and bowed reverently.

    Before he could ask anything, Baba said, "You see others trapped by maya(illusion). Narada and Bharata were entrapped by maya. These great sages were entrapped by it, so what is there to say about others?"

    Kishan Lal felt that there was no need to question Baba further.

    On a different occasion Sah went to Baba with innumerable questions on spirituality. He greeted Baba, who was lying in his kuti(room), but he could not think of which question to ask first. Baba selected one important question from the unexpressed ones and answered it without being asked.

    Baba said, "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion. What can you do about it ?"

    This led to other questions and doubts in Kishan Lal's mind. Baba again answered them without being asked. Baba said, "Delusion makes everything look real."

    Kishan Lal thought that there should be a way out. Baba answered, "Attachment is only dispelled by grace."

    How can one obtain grace, came to Sah's mind. Baba said,"Constant repetition of God's name, even without feelings of devotion, in anger or lethargy, brings out his grace. Once this is realized, there is no room for misgivings."

    ~~~

    • Sevak

      Hare Krsna 

      So Bhagavad Gita has been manipulated but much older Vedas have not?  I myself don't trust the scriptures very much

      If you do not have any faith on the most important scripture of Sanatana Dharma which has been accepted by great sages, devotees etc , then you have no place in these forums. Please quit. 

      Hare Krsna

    • Illusion happens to people's perception, and the temporary nature of things can be mistaken for an illusion. But as Prabhupad has said, this world is not false as the Mayavadis say, it is simply temporary.

      Here is the exact quote from BG 9.33 Purport: 

      "In this material world there are classifications of people, but, after all, this world is not a happy place for anyone. It is clearly stated here, anityam asukhaṁ lokam: this world is temporary and full of miseries, not habitable for any sane gentleman. This world is declared by the Supreme Personality of Godhead to be temporary and full of miseries. Some philosophers, especially Māyāvādī philosophers, say that this world is false, but we can understand from Bhagavad-gītā that the world is not false; it is temporary. There is a difference between temporary and false. This world is temporary, but there is another world, which is eternal. This world is miserable, but the other world is eternal and blissful."

      https://vanisource.org/wiki/BG_9.33

      There are two types of senses. Material and Spiritual. Material senses will see imperfectly, and many may say they see illusion, but the mistake is in the perception. Spiritual senses that have achieved Brahma-Nirvana however, see with Divine Eyes, and they see things as they are, with that, they see this world for what it is, all the while full of Maya, but still full of life and reality, temporary and fleeting as material things are, Love and Compassion are not an illusion and Emanate from the Spiritual World. Follow such things, chant Hare Krishna, surrender to the Brahma-Sampradaya, as you know One Neem Karoli Baba greatly admired and supported, and sent some of His students to, and take up the process of chanting Hare Krishna and purifying yourself until you get the Krishna-Prema you are so seeking. That is what you want, need, and Love, and you will get there. All Blessings my friend.

      Hare Krishna.

      BG 9.33 - Vanisource
    • Hare Krishna kralaro prabhu ji,

      May I know what does it mean when you said--" "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion. What can you do about it ?"

      I know one thing for sure is our eyes are made up of matter, body and mind are made up of matter so they percieve wrongly!!!!! 

      Material things cannot perceive spiritual things . It is right.  

      But The statement is wrong that everything is illusion , temple is illusion, scriptures are illusion.

      If you can explain a bit more what do you mean by this " everything is illusion" explain. Becoz as far as we all Krishna conscious devotees know is. 

      Everything which we see is not illusion if we include Krishna in it. Away from Krishna yes it is illusion.

      Our perception of things is wrong when we don't have Krishna in our thoughts and actions.

      Like for example;.-- A rope is percieved as a snake when there is no light. But the same eyes see it as rope when there is light.

      Here In this Example you can understand that the eyes are the same. the observer is also same. what changed in this experiement is  the light.

      Light is Krishna ...when there is light there is no maya( darkeness) then we see things perfectly and correctly as it is. 

      It is NOT TRUE TO SAY EVERYTHING IS ILLUSION. 


      8940850261?profile=RESIZE_930x
      kralaro
      Hare Krishna and Welcome to ISKCON Desire Tree Multimedia social network of The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)
      • Hare Krishna Ma'm,

        "kralaro prabhu ji" sounds funny to me.

        The statement "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion." is by my guru but i can guess what it means. Whatever is seen by human eye is an illusion. Like inside of human body actually doesn't exist: one does't have any liver, lungs etc., unless the body is opened up, then the illusion of liver and lungs would be created and one would see them. I'm sitting under a fan but the fan doesn't exist, but if i look up then illusion of fan would be created and i would see it. If then i look down then there would be no more need of illusion of fan and then the illusion of fan would go away. This happens because there may be no need for God to sustain the existence of liver and fan when no one is looking at them. It's like movie "The Matrix" where people's brains are connected to computers which immerse them in virtual worlds. This world is virtual.

        • Sevak

          Hare Krsna

          This world is virtual.

          Please quit Iskcon Desiretree since you imageine it to be virtual. Your nonsensical ideas  have no place here. 

          Hare Krsna

        • Not really and exactly that what you said. Temple is existing, you and me are all exisiting. If we are illusion then why wear clothes. clothes also illusion.

          If everything is illusion as per this mayavaadi philosophy that means whatever we are doing is also illusion. that means simply that there is no karma applicable also.

          If I kill a man and say hey you are an illusion i never killed anything. Is it okay?

          Nothing is illusion. Every action you do is recorded.  But the way we percieve things is changed when we are not krishna conscious.

          If I am not krishna conscious. I can even kill a cow and say..hey i never killed that cow is an illusion, and if we are KC then we know that harming a being is a big sin.

          If fan is a illusion then put hand in a fan and say hey why did you cut my finger. you are an illusion right. No it is not like this.

          everything is not illusion our perception is illusionised when we are not aware of the truth. 

          Once you come to know the truth. the illusion is gone. 

          Let us say example-->  8942379274?profile=RESIZE_930x8942379482?profile=RESIZE_400xIn the above figures you can see different image at the start. But once you train your eyes to look beyond what is generally visible to the first sight then you will find a different image.

          that is how the world is. It appears to be maya only when youa re out of Krishna. If you apply Krishna and include krishna into life. The same material worldly things become spiritualized.

          Like one sanyasi ( mayavadi) sees a flower and says it is a just a flower an illusion. for him it appears useless and he sees negative side of things. Like flower stays only for a while and then it dries up. But a Krishna conscious person says what a beautiful flower it can be used in service of Lord. Seeing things positively is KC.

          every material thing can be utilized to Krishna's service if we use it for Krishna. 

          Maayavaadi's says that is material its is illusion. But if thats the case. I can even kill you and claim I never killed anyone. It all illusion.

          nothing is illusion. I will be put in jail for that act.

          Hare Krishna.

  • Sevak

    Hare Krsna 

    Arjuna directly asks this to Sri Krsna in BG -  Which worship is better -  impersonal or personal ?

    Lord Sri Krsna has given a direct answer. - Worship of personal form is better. This should be sufficient for any person with brains. 

    arjuna uvāca
    evaṁ satata-yuktā ye
    bhaktās tvāṁ paryupāsate
    ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktaṁ
    teṣāṁ ke yoga-vittamāḥ

    Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? (BG 12.1)

    śrī-bhagavān uvāca
    mayy āveśya mano ye māṁ
    nitya-yuktā upāsate
    śraddhayā parayopetās
    te me yukta-tamā matāḥ

    The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. (BG 12.2)

    But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable – the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth – by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me. (12.3-4)

    kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām
    avyaktāsakta-cetasām
    avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
    dehavadbhir avāpyate

    For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.( BG 12.5)

     

    Hare Krsna 

    • Sevak

      Hare Krsna 

      People who are in serious spiritual life follow path of bonafide sampradayas. Iskcon doesn't have its own ideology. Iskcon follows Brahma-madhwa-gaudiya Sampradaya.

      All these Arya Samaj etc are not bonafide. These are pseudo social institutions formed with political/ social motives during british times. They don't have any spiritual substance.

      Hare Krsna

  • Hare Krishna,

    After many many many life times one get an oppurtunity to become able to take Lord's name and one gets human birth to perform devotional service to Lord. You father really is a lucky man,  but he is foolishly and unecessarily leaning towards Mayavaad philosophy. Only one who has done vaishnava aparadh will lose the taste in KC.

    15 yrs of deity worship and still he never developed any attachement to the archa vigraha??? 

    First and foremost thing is this term " Idol worship" is wrong word. Our Lord is not just an idol like some Statue of Liberty or some Nehru or Gandhi satue. This is not  idol. This is having prana or life in it.

    This is archa vigraha. As when you chant and call Lord, offer bhog .. Lord really comes and sits there and has the bhog. This is not like some dead person's statue or idol. Prana Prathisthapan procedure is done to Archa Vigraha according to Shastras and They are not lifeless. They have life in them. This statues or idols of nehru gandhi etc. are dead people statues if u put food before them also the dead soul will never come back and eat food.

    Lord Shri Rama and Lord Sri Krishna are NOT  highly intelligient humans. They are divine personalities.

    You father and that Dayananada Saraswati are rightly VERY higly intelligient humans.. They are using stupid logical brain ( which weighs 3 pounds of flesh) to gauge Lord's potency. 

    our logics and our intellect is not even sufficient to even imagine Lord. We don't have so much capacity to think about HIM that is why we are so making some stupid theories and assumptions.

    Vedas says God is impersonal..so it doesn't mean Lord doesn't exist in His personal form.

    We have many instances and many leelas of Krishna and Rama who came personally to devotees and spoke out of Archa vigraha. 

    Yes Moorti pooja or idol worship is wrong If they are doing mooti pooja of dead people like Nehru, Gandhi, Amitab bachhan, Sachin tendulkar, Khusbhoo. etc. These are afterall humans. After death the soul leaves and takes up another body and there is no existence of these people at all.  But after Krishna's or Rama's dissappearance also we have seen many many instances where they showed devotees their presence by talking from the deity. Deity moving to places on itself. ( Sakshi Gopal leela).

    Sri Shakaracharya who advocated Advaitian philosophy itself finally accepted Krishna's Supremacy and sang many glorious songs on Krishna like " Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja moodha mate" and Govindaashtakam, Sri Krishna ashtakam.

    This "Tat tvam asi" and 'Aham Brahmasmi" is outdated concept. It was overruled later by Sri Ramanujacharya and Lord Sri Krishna Chaitnaaya Mahaprabhu. 

    God is present everywhere. In you in me in every place. But WE ARE NOT EQUAL TO GODS.

    God has 3 features. 1. Bhagawan ( personal form) 2. Parmatma form ( present in all beings)  3. Impersonal form ( omnipresent).

    Sun and sun's rays are not equal right?

    Sun is present? YES .. Sun's rays are illuminating whole world? YES

    where from sun's rays are emanating?? is the Sun's rays having some source?. YES

    That means Sun ( Bhagwan) personal feature is different from Sun's rays which are illuminating the whole world and present everywhere.

    Krishna is present as supersoul parmatma in our heart region HE ONLY TOLD THIS IN BG  " BG 15.15 "I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness"

    Krishna is indicating that HE is supersoul (Paramatha)  seated in everyone's heart.

    Krishna says In BG " O son of Kuntī, I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable "oṁ" in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man." He is only OMkara which means He is even appearing as impersonal form as sound of OM riverberating whole universe ( Impersonal form Omni present)

    Krishna is Such a beautiful form we all know it. He is not life less neither his DEITY is lifeless. 

    Watch this vid. and think how deity can also has life and now say whether your father's ideas of  Krishna as intelligent human is suiting? Krishna can walk in deity form also 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MaXmL6AIdg


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