All initiated devotees should be disciple of srila Prabhupada. Why this is not following now a days?
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All initiated devotees should be disciple of srila Prabhupada. Why this is not following now a days?
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Hare Krishna Prabhus
Srila Prabhupada was clearly saying that his disciples will become Guru and continue the Parampara.
Look in Vedabase you will find all informations.
Actually if we think about this, it is an insult to Prabhupada .
It would mean that Prabhupada is not able to make qualified disciples.
Prabhupada came on his own and spread Krishna consciousness in the all world, he is the Senapati Bhakta that Caitanya Mahaprabhu have send.
Nowhere in modern history we have seen such glorification of Krishna toward a devotee, Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Krishna.
And we know what is in history also about his disciples; Prabhupada had thousands of disciples ready to give there life for his mission, for any of his instruction.
Both Guru and Disciples were qualified
So where is the problem ?
It is mostly propaganda; Sometime due to envy, sometime because of painful experiences within Iskcon with immature devotees and often it is both.
Anyway the Ritvik movement had their role to play because the position of Prabhupada as preeminent Siksha guru needed to be clearer in Iskcon.
Let's cooperate and please Srila Prabhupada in his mission. No one want to be guru, we just want to serve, and some have this service, let's follow Krishna's system.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
Hare Krsna
All initiated devotees should be disciple of srila Prabhupada. Why this is not following now a days?
Because it has never been followed in the history of any Sampradaya. Because it is not how the parampara system works.
All initiated disciples are disciples of that initiating Guru. Narada muni is disciple of Lord Brahma. He is not direct Disciple of Sri Krsna. Vyasa Dev is disciple of Narada Muni and so on. There are no proxy initiations.
Hare Krsna
Hare krishna
But Prabhupada appointed 11 ritviks not guru
Hare Krsna Prabhu,
PAMHO.
This is the wrong information that has been fed to you. Think logically, if Srila Prabhupada had indeed appointed ritviks, then how is it that entire ISKCON is going against his divine grace? And growing. Another logical question - why stop at Srila Prabhupada? He is also in parampara - then how to decide that he is giving diksha nd everyone else giving diksha after him is on his behalf? What about Srila Prabhupada giving diksha on behalf of his guru....like this we can trace back right upto Krsna.....
Think clearly prabhu and decide for yourself.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Radha Rasamayi DD
Hare Krishna mataji
PAMHO
But in guru parampara we are seeing only one guru at a time.. and now a days so many gurus are there. And Prabhupada letter of 7th July he only appointed 11ritwiks.. actually I m practicing krishna consciousness from last 2years.. but one iskcon initiated disciple only told me these things. From that day I m not getting correct answer. Can you show me proof in which Prabhupada appointed any guru..
Hare krishna
Hare Krsna Prabhu,
PAMHO.
Loved the answers given by others.
With just 2 years into the system, why are you getting into challenging and debates? We have to be clear about oour purpose of being in this movement - are we trying to seek Krsna and re establish our lost relationship with Him or are we trying to see who is right?
Like it is already said, a sincere seeker finds. Others will get distracted by pebbles on the shore, not appreciate the jewels in the depth of the ocean.
I will end this debate from my side.
You are free to decide and do as per your understanding. Yathechasi tatha kuru.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Radha Rasamayi DD
Hare Krsna
First most important to understand is that Iskcon Guru parampara is not based on Diksha. It is based on Shiksha.
But in guru parampara we are seeing only one guru at a time.. and now a days so many gurus are there.
This is not 100% true. Not even in Gaudiya Parampara what to speak of other parampara.
During time Chaitanya Mahaprabhu there were many devotees who were initiating. Lord Chaitanya and Gadadhar Pandit had different Diksha Guru. There were many associates of Lord Chaitanya who gave Diksha Eg - Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita acarya, Haridas Thakur etc had disciples.
Narottam Das thakur, Srinivas Acarya and Shyamananda Pandit were contemporary devotees who together studied under Jiva Goswami. All three had different spiritual master. Narottam Das thakur took diksha from Lokanath Goswami. Shyamananda Pandit too diksha from Hridaya Chaitanya. Srinivas Acarya too Diksha from Gopala Bhatta Goswami.
During time of Ramanaujacarya there were many gurus - Kanchipurna, Shailapurna, Mahapurna, Ghosti Purna, Yamunacarya etc. Ramanujacarya accepted teachings from many of them.
Even now in Madhwa Sampradaya of Udupi there are at least 8 gurus diksha guru. If you include the many branches like Raghavedra Mutt etc there are many more. Even in Sri Sampradaya there are many initiating Gurus. Even in Gaudiya Matt there are many initiating Gurus.
So the statement made by you is factually not 100% correct be it historically or contemporarily.
Can you show me proof in which Prabhupada appointed any guru?
Once a reporter asked Srila Prabhupada this exact same question. When did your guru Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur give you instruction or appoint you as a guru to make disciples ? Ask this to yourself. Do you have an answer ? Is there any evidence of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati thakur giving an instruction to Srila Prabhupada about initiating disciples? Does it mean Srila Prabhupada is not a bonafide guru ? It is not possible to prove history.
So what did Srila Prabhupada say to the reporter ? Initially he tried to avoid the question, but the reporter kept on insisiting. In the end Srila Prabhupada went heavy on the reporter and said it is none of your business.
So it is none of our business to decide who can be a guru or who can't be a guru. We can at best decide whose disciple we want to be. And that cannot or should not be on evidence and arguments.
So this type of mentality of asking evidence, having debates, filing court cases will not help anybody's Krsna Consciousness.
One iskcon initiated disciple only told me these things. From that day I m not getting correct answer.
Sri Krsna has given each person a mouth. Anybody can say anything. What anyone says cannot be restricted. But Sri Krsna has given us intelligence to decide what is correct and what is not. We have to use our intelligence. If we are sincere, Sri Krsna will definitley guide us.
Once another reporter once asked Srila Prabhupada, there are so many bogus gurus, should you not stop these false gurus. Srila Prabhupada just said, it is not my purpose to expose false gurus. We just show the bonafide path. Those who want to cheat will get cheating gurus. It cannot be avoided.
Just imagine, Srila Prabhuapda being a genuine Guru was not interested in exposing false gurus at individual level like those who say I am god, I will make you god etc. Because Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee, he loved Krsna and gave that Krsna Prema to his followers.
But now there are self appointed people who go about spreading doubts in innocent people about genuine followers of Srila Prabhupada. These people who create such doubts have no respect for devotees of Sri Krsna. By associating with such persons, one could possibly lose faith in Krsna conscousness itself.
So it is very important to use one's intelligence, read Srila Prabhuapada books. I myself had these questions about Ritvik system years ago. It is difficult to get answers if you are asking evidence, debating etc. Only Sri Krsna who is present in our hearts can guide the sincere seeker. And when Sri Krsna guides us, it will become crystal clear. Such a person will not seek evidence.
There are responses to Ritvik system in this thread. You may find it useful - https://iskcondesiretree.com/forum/topics/what-is-good-in-both-iskc...
At this stage, it is better to focus on sincere practice of chanting of Hare Krsna. When the right time comes, Krsna will guide you.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna
Below is the exact quote by Srila Prabhupada Paraphrased by me above
Indian man (1): When did you began to become the spiritual leader of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Brahmānanda: He's asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?
Prabhupāda: When my Guru Mahārāja ordered me. This is the guru-paramparā.
Indian man (1): Did he just . . .
Prabhupāda: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
Indian lady: Guru dharan karne ke liye ye. (To have a guru, master . . .)
Prabhupāda: Pehle guru to smajho tab guru dharan samjhega. Jaise niyam hai guru jo bolega usko sunana padega. (First you understand master, then you will understand having a master. What the rules are. Whatever the master says, you have to listen . . .) Śādhi māṁ prapannam. "I am surrendered to You. Whatever You say, I shall carry out." That's all.
Indian man (1): When did he tell you to . . .?
Prabhupāda: What is the business, when did he tell me? And why shall I disclose to you? It is so very insignificant thing that I have to explain to you?
Indian man (1): No, I am just curious to know when.
Prabhupāda: You should be curious within your limit. You should know that one can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. This much.
Reference
The above is from a lecture given by Srila Prabhupada given in Nairobi on October 28, 1975 on BG 7.02 Lecture 751028.
Link - https://vanisource.org/wiki/751028_-_Lecture_BG_07.02_-_Nairobi
Hare Krsna
Bt in madhwa sampradaya... 10000 kids r trained (or i can say thy teach them) from age of 10, and only 1 is chosen by the guru to become peetadipathi.... Becoming sanyasi is diff... Nd becoming a peetadipathi is diff.... That means that yati is the head of tht mutt... And the 8 disciples of madhwacharya... Thy hv 8 mutts... D thy r incharge of their specific mutt... Bt i dont see that in iskcon... And it is after peetadhipathi leaves body...( Bfre tht only a disciple is chosen by guru.) .. And that yati get tht position of guru... So cn u explain me... Y i dnt see any transfer of position here? And y thrz no samadhi of other gurus who left body... Like thy do in other sampradayas... Thrz no bridavana, no samadhi...
So y is tht iskcon doesnt hv any of these things...??
Hare Krsna
So cn u explain me... Y i dnt see any transfer of position here?
It is not favourable for our Krana consciousness to compare and contrast the activties of 2 acaryas in a sampradaya who appeared in different ages. Nor is it conducive for our Krsna consciousnes to ask why an acarya acts in the way they did or didn't.
yāṅra citte kṛṣṇa-premā karaye udaya
tāṅra vākya, kriyā, mudrā vijñeha nā bujhaya
“Even the most learned man cannot understand the words, activities and symptoms of a person situated in love of Godhead. (CC Madhya 23.39)
As practitioners we have a lot of basic things to worry about like hearing the holy names, being humble etc. I am not trying to discredit the question, but not everyone is at the level of understanding how acaryas make decisions about succession of the parampara. Great acaryas do not act independently, they are are 100% Krsna concious. We don't need to understand how they administered their responsibilities, we need to follow their instructions to begin with. Again I am not trying to discredit the question
As far as the question is concerned as RR Mataji has mentioned, I see more similarity in actions of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Madhvacarya than difference.
Hare Krsna
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