Hare Krishna,
Birth Caste based arrogance and descrimination is mostly seen in India only.
Nowhere else in the world it is seen.
Caste feeling is in the genes of Indians.
I am from Andhrapradesh. The people here are obsessed with birth caste. All the politics here are based on
caste. The Kamma people here are arrogant and selfish brutes. Actually according to Varnasrama, all socalled
higher castes such as kamma, kapu, reddy are sudras. But these ignorant fellows think highly of themselves.
They say caste system is based on ones nature, not based on birth.
But in reality, it seems that one can't escape birth tag.
Krsna Book 78: " When Lord Balarāma saw that Romaharṣaṇa Sūta did not understand the highest principle of religion in spite of his having studied all the Vedas, He certainly could not support his position. Romaharṣaṇa Sūta had been given the chance to become a perfect brāhmaṇa, but because of his ill behavior in his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his low birth was immediately remembered. "
If we see in mahabharatha and other puranas, ones caste is clearly based on ones birth.
A king's son becomes a king. And a sudra's son becomes Sudra.
Every one follows occupation based on one's birth. Only in rare cases, a person behaves differently .
Moreover, they use the words such as lowborn, highborn etc.,
If caste is not based on birth, why do they use such words ?
Many times, they say sudra is lowly born. They even use words such as dog to sudra.
If caste is based on ones nature, and not by birth, why were Bhishma, Drona asking Karna about his lineage ?
In Anusasana parva, Bhishma so often uses words such as lowborn. He gave big lecture about mixed castes such
as chandala, vandi, magadha, suta based on their birth.
Actually Aswathama should be considered Kshatriya since he fought wars.
Eventhough he committed heinous crimes, Krishna says since he is brahmana, he must not be killed.
Hence caste descrimination based on birth was certainly there.
Dear devotees, Please share your thoughts.
Thanq.
Replies
Hare Krishna,
I understand what you are saying Mr. Ranga Krishna. I am also from Hyderabad. I know the politics going in there. Kamma and Kapus and reddy's dominate other castes. Arrogance is not because they are some high class. They are rich because by nature they are are stronger as they are meat eaters and moreover they earn money in many illegal ways. And the earned money is shared among them. They try keep mariages strictly within their own kith and kin so that their always remain stronger in the society.
Hare krishna.
Brahmin are fallen because they are marrying other caste people. These foolish Brahmins were once upon a time used to be higher class and they subjugated other castes. But since Kaliyuga there has been a dilution .. brahmins are no longer holding themselves to their coustoms, traditions and values and marrying low caste people and fallen to bad habits of meat eating and lntoxicants. Now brahmins lost their virtues and these shudras ( kamma, kapus and reddy's) maintaining their values and marrying amongst themselves and multiplying their properties and holding higher positions because of RICHES. Not because they have any values or morals.
See.. let us say A shudra earned a lakh rupees and has a daughter if he marries his daughter to a shudra .. the daughter will get that 1 lakh rupees as dowry and the son inlaw becomes rich by one lakh. But again think.. The money earned by a shudra transfered to a shudra and that shudra son in law will earn 3 lakhs and add the property given by the father in law now has 4 lakh.. and he will give his daughter in marriage to a shurda only. So the money is circulated and multiplied by shudra caste. Isn't it? Now they become higher and richer dominating class in that way.
Brahmins in olden days.. did the same.. Instead of money.. They transfered their study of vedas to the brahmin class only. The vedas upanishads and other sanskrit texts are learnt by brahmins only. So the brahmins were respected by other caste and they used hold high place in the society as they were treated as highly learned scholars. Now a days the brahmins are not studying any vedas nor any sanskrit mantras they are doing other occupations and marrying other lower caste girls and they in this way lost thier virtues.
To be more frank... these dilutions were created on a purpose by these shudras.. they planned this to trap young brahmin boys by sending them to brothel houses or luring them to drinking liquor. Anyways.. even the brahmins started to fall down because of Kali prabhava. No need of even pointing fingers at other caste.. The brahmin themselves have fallen under Kali prabhav.
The virtous class lost their virtues and the shudras became shaktimaan because of not virtues but because of MONEY, property and riches.
What can we say now.. This is the Kali prabhavam.
Ya, no one is more arrogant than these kammas..These fools are actually sudras.. But they don't know that..
In college classrooms, they used to demand to occupy front seats. This was my experience..
Hare Krsna
Thank you for mentioning this. Nobody is challenging these. What is being said is that the daivi-varnashrama system designed by Sri Krsna is not in-favour of such arrogance or disrespect. Let me explain through an analogy.
Govt makes traffic rules & implements traffic light system at busy junctions. If someone breaks the traffic light rules, then that action should not be blamed on the system designed by govt.
Similarly the daivy varnashrama system designed by Sri Krsna is not to be blamed. Caste system is not same as Daivi varnashrama system.
Following are examples of expected behaviour in Daivi Varnashrama system
1. Sri Rama happily accepted impure fruits tasted by Shabari, who had pure devotion although she was very simple.
2. Sri Rama accepted friendship of Guha although guha was from a different society that was not under King Dasharatha
3. Sri Rama heartfully thanked Jatayu and performed final rituals for Jatayu, out of love for Jatayu, who was in a different species.
4. Sri Rama was grateful towards small animals like squirrels who helped him in a very small way in building bridge.
The following are examples of higher varna people being not being honoured.
1. Drona(Brahamana) was insulted by Drupada(Kshatriya).
2. King Bali(Kshatriya) rejected instructions of his guru Shukracarya (Brahmana)
3. Lord Shiva the greatest devotee and very powerful personality was insulted by Daksha
All these are examples to show that no matter what the system is, the time is, the individual imperfections will always be there in material world. The goal is to not be affected by such imperfections and rise above the material considerations. If we get fixated on these imprefections, we will miss the opportunity to elevate our consciousness. This opportunity is only available in Human form of life.
If people are arrogant, disrespectful, then that is an imperfection in their consciousness and they will get appropriate treatment by material nature. Why should I be affected by others insult towards me when I can remember Krsna's pastimes and go closer to Krsna.
Hare Krsna
As I understand it, in previous yugas when the Vedic society was in place, with all the samskaras followed etc., birth and character were rather closely aligned. Sastra gives some warning in the form of examples of individuals who were exceptions to this.
In Kali yuga varnasrama degraded into casteism, with varna sankara and all, so those negativities you mention appeared. To offend someone that he is a sudra is stupid because if no one does the work of sudra, the society will collapse in no time.
Hari Hari
ys J.
Hare Krsna
Birth Caste based arrogance and descrimination is mostly seen in India only. Nowhere else in the world it is seen.
There have been aparthied movements, Nazi movements etc. Racial discrimination is/was present outside India also.
But these ignorant fellows think highly of themselves.
Ignorance/ Arrogance has nothing to do with caste. People can think highly of themselves irrespective of any caste. Arrogance is not restricted to higher caset only. People of all races, castes, professions, genders can be arrogant and ignorant. Lord Sri Krsna says anyone who thinks there are the body is not so intelligent.
Caste system is based on ones nature, not based on birth.
cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
tasya kartāram api māṁ
viddhy akartāram avyayam
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. ( BG 4.13)
The daivi varnashrama system was designed by Lord Sri Krsna. It is not based on birth. It is based on guna & karma or qualities and activity/behavior. The modern caste system in India of issuing caste certificate based on birth is a gift of British. There were no caste certificates issued by King or govt prior to British.
But in reality, it seems that one can't escape birth tag.
Lord Sri Chaitanya has given the process of Bhakti to escape birth, death and material world altogether by chanting the holy names of
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
Romaharshana Sage's low birth was immediately remembered.
Which means prior to this incident, his low birth was completely forgotten. It was his unexemplary actions that resulted in the remembrance of the caste. Hence varna was based on actions and qualities not birth as recent as 5000 years ago.
A king's son becomes a king. And a sudra's son becomes Sudra.
This is not a rule, but a trend. There are examples where unfit king was removed despite being son of King. Example - Vena, Duryodhana etc. Several thousand kings were removed by Lord Parashurama.
If caste is not based on birth, why do they use such words ?
First we have to make distinction between caste system and daivi varnashrama. Caste system is modern & always based on birth. Varnashrama system is based on guna & karma. These are two very different systems. Varnashrama is not based on birth.
Bhishma, Drona asking Karna about his lineage ?
Because of Karna's degraded activities. Karna was involved in insulting and harassign a chaste lade - Draupadi. Anyone who disrespects women meets demise - irrespective of caste.
Hence caste descrimination based on birth was certainly there.
Yes, but only since the british incorporated in their system of governance.
Hare Krsna
his low birth was completely forgotten. It was his unexemplary actions that resulted in the remembrance of the caste.
Why would they use the word lowbirth ? They would not at all utter the word birth , if caste is purely based on qualities alone..
If they considered Romaharṣaṇa to be a brahmana by examining his qualities, Why they called Romaharṣaṇa Sūta instead of saying just Romaharṣaṇa ?
Was not Karna a kshatriya ? Why did they kept calling him suta ? Why draupadi rejected him saying suta.
Bcz they were arrogant always thinking that they were born in higher caste. Same is continuing now also in India..
So, they followed castes based on purely on qualities , but didn't insult in the name of birth is a big lie.
This is not a rule, but a trend.
Why would they follow trend instead of rule ?
If caste is not based on birth, they would hold brahmana and kshatriya exams like IAS, IPS exams.
why would kings inherit kingdom from their fathers ?
That's why many dalits are somuch angry with Hinduism. Muslims and Christians are happily using this and converting many into their religions..
Hare Krsna
Why would they use the word lowbirth ?
They didn't use the word "low"
if caste is purely based on qualities alone
Caste is not purely based on any one consideration. It generally based on multiple considerations.
cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. ( BG 4.13)
They would not at all utter the word birth , if caste is purely based on qualities alone
Mental speculation.
Was not Karna a kshatriya ?
Karna was Kshatriya. But had imperfect character.
Why did they kept calling him suta ?
It doesn't matter who calls whom what. Reality doesn't change. Life goes on. It is not possible to control who calls whom what.
Why draupadi rejected him saying suta.
It was her Swayamvara. She has full 100% autonomy on whom she chooses. She rejected Karna. Doesn't matter the reason. Nobody even, Sri Krsna doesn't question it. But ignorant fallen conditioned souls who feel sympathetic to failed their sinful "hero" Karna only feel empathetic towards him, probably because it resontaes well with their own failures.
Bcz they were arrogant always thinking that they were born in higher caste. Same is continuing now also in India..
As mentioned earlier arrogance is there in amost all individuals at all times in material world. It has nothing to do with daivi varnashrama system of Sri Krsna.
Why would they follow trend instead of rule ?
They don't. They do what they consider is best. Based on what has been done, a trend maybe observed afterwards.
That's why many dalits are somuch angry
Nobody asked why anyone is angry. If they are not angry with this, they will be angry with something else. That is how modes of material nature work.
Hare Krsna
Your first statement
Which means prior to this incident, his low birth was completely forgotten.
Your next statement
They didn't use the word "low"
Did not you read Krsna Book.78, SB 10.78.24 which are your authorised books ?
Either you forgot your first statement or you lied.
I know again you will say, this is my mental speculation.
I believe you read Krsna Book.78, SB 10.78.24
Perhaps I am again doing mental speculation according to you, just bcz I used the word "believe"
If Drona, Kripa or any other brahmana committed an offence like this , would Balarama remember their births ?
Why forget, why remember birth at all if there is no Caste based descrimination based on birth ?
Who is a chandala ? born to sudra man and brahmana woman
who is Vandi or Magadha ? born to Vaisya man and Kshatriya woman
Suta - Kshatriya man , Brahmana women
Nishada - born to Sudra man , Kshatriya women
Ayogava - born to Sudra man , Vaisya women
How can you say that castes were not based on birth , if it depends on parents ?
You are the one who does more Mental speculation than anyone else ?
They didn't use the word "low"
Mental speculation
Caste is not purely based on any one consideration. It generally based on multiple considerations.
Mental speculation
"They would not at all utter the word birth , if caste is purely based on qualities alone"
Mental speculation.
Calling this statement as Mental speculation , is Mental speculation
Why draupadi rejected him saying suta ?
She has full 100% autonomy on whom she chooses.
Mental speculation.
She will be given to whoever achieves the condition put by his father.
She rejected Karna. Doesn't matter the reason.
Ya, reason doesn't matter if she didn't like him. But she was showing Caste based arrogance and descrimination. I just showed that.
To say "Doesn't matter the reason" when the topic here is Caste descrimination is Mental speculation.
Nobody, even,Sri Krsna doesn't question it.
So you proved that He didn't condemn Caste based arrogance and descrimination
But ignoran t fallen conditioned souls who feel sympathetic to failed their sinful "hero" Karna only feel empathetic towards him, probably because it resontaes well with their own failures.
ignorant fallen conditioned souls
So, you meant it is me. Surely not Mental speculation..
Perhaps you are highly elevated liberated transendental soul according to you though you don't even carefully read and understand what others are saying and what is the context etc.,
My point is why was she saying suta though he is Kshatriya, thereby bringing his birth into the scene. I didn't say Karna is a good person ..
So Mental speculation to think that I am empathetic towards him,
arrogance is there in amost all individuals at all times in material world
Going out of the topic.. Topic is "Caste based descrimination based on birth"
Firstly you better get rid of your arrogance
It has nothing to do with daivi varnashrama system of Sri Krsna.
Big lie. Doesn't befit to devotees. Surely you must have read Krsna Book 78, SB 10.78.24
So, talking without reading scriptures.. Again Mental speculation.
They don't. They do what they consider is best. Based on what has been done, a trend maybe observed afterwards.
Deviating from topic. Nobody asked what they considered best.
Topic is to prove whether there is Caste descrimination.or not , there is impartiality. or not,,
That means, they were not inviting the youth for conducting competetions for selecting the king, who best qualifies amongst all.
This is again based on birth.
Nobody asked why anyone is angry..
What is the need to ask for the wise who are never ready to ask anything, but only ready to preach ?
If they are not angry with this, they will be angry with something else.
But this is the main reason.
Hare Krsna
Did not you read Krsna Book.78, SB 10.78.24 which are your authorised books ?
Krsna book is in English or other language. The exact words are in Sanskrit. In SB 10.78.24 shloka, no word equivalent to "low" has been used.
Either you forgot your first statement or you lied.
Thank you for your accusations. But neither is true. I used word low, Not they.
would Balarama remember their births ?
It doesn't matter.
why remember birth at all
What someone remembers is upto them. It cannot be controlled. In this case, such remembrance is attributable to actions by Romaharshana. As mentioned, before such action, he was on a elevated seat giving discourse.
How can you say that castes were not based on birth
Sri Krsna says as mentioned previously daivi-varnashrama system is based on guna & karma. Caste certificate system based birth is administered by British. If someone has problem with a British system, Daivy Varnashrama system need not be blamed.
She will be given to whoever achieves the condition put by his father.
Not true, the will of bride is held as the foremost hence word Swayamvara. The conditions put forth by father is necessary but not sufficient for acceptance.
she was showing Caste based arrogance and descrimination.
Not True. But she was showing discrimination and rightly so, Because Karna didn't have good character.
So you proved that He didn't condemn Caste based arrogance and descrimination
Not at all.
Firstly you better get rid of your arrogance
Thank you I will
Topic is to prove whether there is Caste descrimination.or not , there is impartiality. or not,,
There is discrimination in british administered system which is based on birth.
But this is the main reason.
Reasons don't matter.
Hare Krsna
If a person is sleeping, one can wake him up.. But not the persons who are pretending.
But she was showing discrimination and rightly so, Because Karna didn't have good character.
You mean that , if a person's character is bad, you should criticize his birth by calling him suta, sudra like this. This is your wisdom.
You criticize his character..You can use words wicked, evil, bad, etc., Why should you criticize his birth ?
Was duryodhana a gentle man ? Why didn't she insult his birth ?
They spoke many harsh words to duryodhana also for his bad behaviour. But never talked abt his birth.
Yajnasena always cherished the desire of bestowing his daughter on Kiriti (Arjuna), the son of Pandu. But he never spoke of it to anybody. And, O Janamejaya, the king of Panchala thinking of Arjuna caused a very stiff bow to be made that was incapable of being bent by any except Arjuna. Causing some machinery to be erected in the sky, the king set up a markattached to that machinery. And Drupada said, 'He that will string this bow and with these well-adorned arrows shoot the mark above the machine shall obtain my daughter.'
"Vaisampayana continued, 'With these words king Drupada proclaimed the Swayamvara
And when that vast amphitheatre, O monarch, became perfectly still, Dhrishtadyumna possessed of a voice deep as the sound of the kettledrum or the clouds, taking hold of his sister's arm, stood in the midst of that concourse, and said, with a voice loud and deep as the roar of the clouds, these charming words of excellent import, 'Hear ye assembled kings, this is the bow, that is the mark, and these are the arrows. Shoot the mark through the orifice of the machine with these five sharpened arrows. Truly do I say that, possessed of lineage, beauty of persons, and strength whoever achieveth this great feat shall obtain today this my sister, Krishna for his wife.' Having thus spoken unto the assembled monarchs Drupada's son then addressed his sister, reciting unto her the names and lineages and achievements of those assembled lords of the earth.'"
.
Didn he say " Let me shortlist the achievers and then let her chose from them " ?
There is no end to your speculation.. stop this hypocricy man..
Krsna Book 78: " When Lord Balarāma saw that Romaharṣaṇa Sūta did not understand the highest principle of religion in spite of his having studied all the Vedas, He certainly could not support his position. Romaharṣaṇa Sūta had been given the chance to become a perfect brāhmaṇa, but because of his ill behavior in his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his low birth was immediately remembered. "
Thank you for your accusations. But neither is true. I used word low, Not they.
Good, You atleast accepted that you used the word low.
You are still lying by saying they did n't..
Krsna Book 78: " When Lord Balarāma saw that Romaharṣaṇa Sūta did not understand the highest principle of religion in spite of his having studied all the Vedas, He certainly could not support his position. Romaharṣaṇa Sūta had been given the chance to become a perfect brāhmaṇa, but because of his ill behavior in his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his low birth was immediately remembered. "
Who is using the word low here. you ? Both you and they used.
[Lord Balarāma said:] Because this fool born from an improperly mixed marriage sits above all these brāhmaṇas and even above Me, the protector of religion, he deserves to die.
Now you will say, show me the word low here.
Don't you feel guilty ? You are not truthful. How can you preach ?
A preacher should first accept the truth .. Then he can explain his views
Otherwise where is the credibility ?
See, if you can't explain the things agreeably to scriptures, better just sit and do your devotion.
Why lie and say senseless things ?
I beg you to forgive me saying this.. I am saying this only bcz of concern for you..
If you don't know, stay aloof, and do your sadhana..When you know the answer you comeback with references..
But don't try to twist the things..
I know you are a good man.. But You are eager to always prove your point...stick to the truth..
" I should be always right " leave this mentality. Accept your mistakes .Be carefree..
This is my sinciere advice.
Plz forgive my offences,
Always wishing you good..
Thanq..
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