here krishna,
all glories to srila prabhpada.
lord krishna said in bhagvad gita that,one who attain my transcendental abode never come back into this material world. then why those jivas already in the spiritual world fall,although they are serving the lord,and if they become envious, then next question is how cn they become envious in the presence of lord in the spiritual world and nt in the material world. ok for the sake consider jivas fall out of evvy,and as bhagvad gita they again attain spiritual world, then what is the garentee that they will nt become again envious. and if someone says they fall because they belong to marginal potency, and if it is true then it means that they will always bearing a tendency to fall from spiritual to material and vice varsa. then cant the krishnas word feel contradictory that one who attain my transcendental abode never come back into this material world.
Replies
The difficulty here is that you have not cited any sastra in your statements and Our Srila Prabhupada has spoken in both ways but in sasatra when writing purports he has made it clear that it is not possible to fall from the spiritual world I will cite with sastra why:
bhagavān anugāv āha
yātaṁ mā bhaiṣṭam astu śam
brahma-tejaḥ samartho 'pi
hantuṁ necche mataṁ tu me
bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anugau — to His two attendants; āha — said; yātam — depart from this place; mā —let there not be; bhaiṣṭam — fear; astu — let there be; śam —happiness; brahma — of a brāhmaṇa; tejaḥ — the curse; samarthaḥ— being able; api — even; hantum — to nullify; na icche — do not desire; matam — approved; tu — on the contrary; me — by Me.
The Lord then said to His attendants, Jaya and Vijaya: Depart this place, but fear not. All glories unto you. Though I am capable of nullifying the brāhmaṇas' curse, I would not do so. On the contrary, it has My approval.
As explained in connection with text 26, all the incidents that took place had the approval of the Lord. Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuṇṭha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.
śrī-bhagavān uvāca
etau suretara-gatiṁ pratipadya sadyaḥ
saṁrambha-sambhṛta-samādhy-anubaddha-yogau
bhūyaḥ sakāśam upayāsyata āśu yo vaḥ
śāpo mayaiva nimitas tad aveta viprāḥ
śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead replied;etau — these two doorkeepers; sura-itara — demoniac; gatim — the womb; pratipadya — obtaining; sadyaḥ — quickly; saṁrambha — by anger; sambhṛta — intensified; samādhi — concentration of mind;anubaddha — firmly; yogau — united with Me; bhūyaḥ — again;sakāśam — to My presence; upayāsyataḥ — shall return; āśu —shortly; yaḥ — which; vaḥ — of you; śāpaḥ — curse; mayā — by Me;eva — alone; nimitaḥ — ordained; tat — that; aveta — know; viprāḥ— O brāhmaṇas.
The Lord replied: O brāhmaṇas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.
The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuṇṭha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.
In Bhagavad-gītā (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhāgavatam
Also Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu when instructing Sanatan goswami explained we have manifested from the tatashta shakti of The Lord
jīvera 'svarūpa' haya — kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa'
kṛṣṇera 'taṭasthā-śakti' 'bhedābheda-prakāśa'
sūryāṁśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya
svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra 'śakti' haya
jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the constitutional position;haya — is; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nitya-dāsa — eternal servant;kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; taṭasthā — marginal; śakti — potency;bheda-abheda — one and different; prakāśa — manifestation; sūrya-aṁśa — part and parcel of the sun; kiraṇa — a ray of sunshine;yaiche — as; agni-jvālā-caya — molecular particle of fire; svābhāvika— naturally; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; tina-prakāra — three varieties;śakti — energies; haya — there are.
"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.
Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains these verses as follows: Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Who am I?" In answer, the Lord replied, "You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa's marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Kṛṣṇa as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire." Another explanation of these verses can be found in Ādi-līlā, Chapter Two, verse 96.
For fear of make this any longer I will leave you with one more piece of praman (sastric evidence)
Srila Prabhupada's Krishna Book Ch 28 paragraph 6
"The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vṛndāvana-līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. Kṛṣṇa therefore revealed the actual features of the Vaikuṇṭha planets so that the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana could know their destination."
You can read Jaiva Dharma of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur 15/16th Chapter as well.
In the service of Guru and Gauranga
Mukunda das
Sent from my iPad
Hare Krishna Pr,
Sorry for late reply. We have to understand in which context Srila Prabhupada is writing. Please go through the following link to a letter written by SP where he clearly mentioned that we were originally with Krishna:
http://prabhupadabooks.com/letters/los_angeles/may/16/1972/madhudvisa
Also there are so many other references as well I can't write them here but I am going to give a link to an article which shows most of the references given by SP himself.
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=9110
I hope this will help.
Your servant,
Bhupesh Gupta
Dear devotees, Hare Krishna. You will find different opinions on this subject among general devotees and by reading books you will see ambiguity ie it is not so clear.
It depends on your approach of this enigma that is, if you care to know the tattva.
Krishna says you can know the tattva if you approach a pure devotee who is a fully realized soul. uttama adhikari. and learn from him pure devotional service.
By that pure devotion Krishna will be pleased to reveal to you all the truths regarding transcendental knowledge.
Then with full faith chant the Holy Name and get the goal, love for Krishna.
If you use other approaches to this like logic, study of books, purports, debates, etc etc. you will get different, different opinions and theories.
Such theoretical speculators, jnanis who are very great in number here put forth these theories and get some followers who also like to argue in these speculative ways.
The end result is a waste of time.
So if you are serious to know the Truth you must approach the sad guru, the uttam guru who is fully realized in all the vedas, who is not a theoretical speaker only and then inquire with submissive inquiries and service.
Such uttam guru is very rare and you may feel frustrated not finding such a personal teacher so easily.
Krishna knows your heart and when He sees you are serious to advance in suddha bhakti and give up all other speculative diversions He will help you.
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna Pr,
Lets try to answer your question
It seems contradictory, but that is actual truth ....
With our finite understanding we didn't understand each and everything.
Lord says this many times in bhagavd gita...
However, we have to understand the intention of lord, what actually lord wants to convey..
In above verses Lord is comparing the situation of this world and that of spiritual world, if you read carefully nearby verses of them.
1) In Material World one may fall down from heavenly planets when his pious deeds are finished but there is no such things in abode of Krishna
2) This world which is created by Brahma is not eternal, which is govern by time factor and finally annihilated ... ( No time factor in Krishna abode, No fear of final annihilation)
So, Lord is explaining how in material world one is forced (by law of karma) but in spiritual world there is no such conditioning, one can living there without any fear of fall-down or annihilation.
Now lets talk about Contradiction.
Ques) Then why souls are here in this world? or from where these souls came from?
Ans) Souls comes from spiritual world to this world because to his own false desires, misuse of free-will, when soul wants to enjoy separately from lord or say doesn't want to serve the lord then lord gives him this facility too. Krishna doesn't force anyone for anything, it is individual's wish to love him or not... still he tries to save us but sometimes due to own mistakes we doesn't not listen him and forced him to come here.(due to our false ego)
Then for temporary period of time lord give us facility to come here & fulfill our false desires and with time he give us facility to purified and get back to home.
(Just like a child due to ignorance demands which is not worthy from father, when father won't allow him then child will force father or think i know what is good for me (false ego) and not listening father, and start doing wrong thinks in back then father sometimes knowingly allow the child, but as soon as child realize his mistake, father again welcome him with open arms & that's the day what father is actually waiting for and love become more increased due to long separation) well this is just a example of father and son..
We all have different relationships with supreme lord in spiritual world and we may fall down due to few reasons i.e
1) Free-Will
2) False desires
3) False Ego
Now, lets take example how souls actually fall from spiritual world?
Lets say a soul try to intimate the lord and similarly want to become controller, then due his false desire... lord give him post of Brahma, where he becomes controller and separate enjoyer, if soul doesn't get purified and just engage himself in its own creation and falsely think to be supreme enjoyer then soul again fall down from post of Brahma and get a lower post, in similar way it goes enjoying from one body to another until realization ...
Ques) How can they become envious in the presence of lord in the spiritual world?
Ans) As explain above, first we may have false desire (may arise due to soul's infinitesimal attribute) then if lord try to save us then due to our false ego we doesn't listen him or still he tries to stop us then we start developing envy and force him to come here.
Well there are many other reasons for soul to come here in this world ...
Sometime for temporary period of time, soul comes to fulfill particular desire of lord...
For example -- In case of Jay and Vijay they come here to serve lord in fighting as fighting is not a part of spiritual world so when lord desire to fight they come here to serve him in that way, and four kumars by giving curse is actually fulfilling the desire of Lord.
So, ultimately one doesn't need to worry about the fall down like we have in this material world which is working under cause and effect... There is no worry of exhaustion of pious deeds or annihilation. Those who reach there never likes to comes back because they have already attain highest perfection....
Hare krishna,
In a mahamantra recording somewhere by prabhupada, he said 'as living spiritual souls we were originally krishna conscious living entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our conciousness is now polluted by material atmosphere'
I found it difficult to understand....in the brahma jyoti, were we krishna conscious also?,
hare krishna
Read this S.B verse for Detailed Info on Brahma Jyothi.
SB 2.4.14
namo namas te ’stv ṛṣabhāya sātvatāṁ
vidūra-kāṣṭhāya muhuḥ kuyoginām
nirasta-sāmyātiśayena rādhasā
sva-dhāmani brahmaṇi raṁsyate namaḥ
Word for word:
namaḥ namaḥ te — let me offer my obeisances unto You; astu — are; ṛṣabhāya — unto the great associate; sātvatām — of the members of the Yadu dynasty; vidūra-kāṣṭhāya — one who is far from mundane wranglers; muhuḥ — always; ku-yoginām — of the nondevotees; nirasta — vanquished; sāmya — equal status; atiśayena — by greatness; rādhasā — by opulence; sva-dhāmani — in His own abode; brahmaṇi — in the spiritual sky; raṁsyate — enjoys; namaḥ — I do bow down.
Translation:
Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto Him who is the associate of the members of the Yadu dynasty and who is always a problem for the nondevotees. He is the supreme enjoyer of both the material and spiritual worlds, yet He enjoys His own abode in the spiritual sky. There is no one equal to Him because His transcendental opulence is immeasurable.
Purport:
There are two sides of the transcendental manifestations of the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. For the pure devotees He is the constant companion, as in the case of His becoming one of the family members of the Yadu dynasty, or His becoming the friend of Arjuna, or His becoming the associate neighbor of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana, as the son of Nanda-Yaśodā, the friend of Sudāmā, Śrīdāmā and Madhumaṅgala, or the lover of the damsels of Vrajabhūmi, etc. That is part of His personal features. And by His impersonal feature He expands the rays of the brahmajyoti, which is limitless and all-pervasive. Part of this all-pervasive brahmajyoti, which is compared to the sun rays, is covered by the darkness of the mahat-tattva, and this insignificant part is known as the material world. In this material world there are innumerable universes like the one we can experience, and in each of them there are hundreds of thousands of planets like the one we are inhabiting. The mundaners are more or less captivated by the unlimited expansion of the rays of the Lord, but the devotees are concerned more with His personal form, from which everything is emanating (janmādy asya yataḥ). As the sun rays are concentrated in the sun disc, the brahmajyoti is concentrated in Goloka Vṛndāvana, the topmost spiritual planet in the spiritual sky. The immeasurable spiritual sky is full of spiritual planets, named Vaikuṇṭhas, far beyond the material sky. The mundaners have insufficient information of even the mundane sky, so what can they think of the spiritual sky? Therefore the mundaners are always far, far away from Him. Even if in the future they are able to manufacture some machine whose speed may be accelerated to the velocity of the wind or mind, the mundaners will still be unable to imagine reaching the planets in the spiritual sky. So the Lord and His residential abode will always remain a myth or a mysterious problem, but for the devotees the Lord will always be available as an associate.
In the spiritual sky His opulence is immeasurable. The Lord resides in all the spiritual planets, the innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets, by expanding His plenary portions along with His liberated devotee associates, but the impersonalists, who want to merge in the existence of the Lord, are allowed to merge as one of the spiritual sparks of the brahmajyoti. They have no qualifications for becoming associates of the Lord either in the Vaikuṇṭha planets or in the supreme planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana, described in the Bhagavad-gītā as mad-dhāma and here in this verse as the sva-dhāma of the Lord.
This mad-dhāma or sva-dhāma is described in the Bhagavad-gītā (15.6) as follows:
na tad bhāsayate sūryo
na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yad gatvā na nivartante
tad dhāma paramaṁ mama
The Lord’s sva-dhāma does not require any sunlight or moonlight or electricity for illumination. That dhāma, or place, is supreme, and whoever goes there never comes back to this material world.
The Vaikuṇṭha planets and the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet are all self-illuminating, and the rays scattered by those sva-dhāma of the Lord constitute the existence of the brahmajyoti. As further confirmed in the Vedas like the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad (2.2.10), Kaṭha Upaniṣad (2.2.15) and Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (6.14):
na tatra sūryo bhāti na candra-tārakaṁ
nemā vidyuto bhānti kuto ’yam agniḥ
tam eva bhāntam anubhāti sarvaṁ
tasya bhāsā sarvam idaṁ vibhāti
In the sva-dhāma of the Lord there is no need of sun, moon or stars for illumination. Nor is there need of electricity, so what to speak of ignited lamps? On the other hand, it is because those planets are self-illuminating that all effulgence has become possible, and whatever there is that is dazzling is due to the reflection of that sva-dhāma.
One who is dazzled by the effulgence of the impersonal brahmajyoti cannot know the personal transcendence; therefore in the Īśopaniṣad (15) it is prayed that the Lord shift His dazzling effulgence so that the devotee can see the real reality. It is spoken thus:
hiraṇmayena pātreṇa
satyasyāpihitaṁ mukham
tat tvaṁ pūṣann apāvṛṇu
satya-dharmāya dṛṣṭaye
“O Lord, You are the maintainer of everything, both material and spiritual, and everything flourishes by Your mercy. Your devotional service, or bhakti-yoga, is the actual principle of religion, satya-dharma, and I am engaged in that service. So kindly protect me by showing Your real face. Please, therefore, remove the veil of Your brahmajyoti rays so that I can see Your form of eternal bliss and knowledge.”
Hare krishna ,PAMHO.
Those who are impersonalists can merge into the sunshinelike brahmajyoti, whereas those who are in love with the Supreme Person enter into the supreme abode
Therefore Krishna is the source of the brahmajyoti as well as the all-pervading ... Thisbrahmajyoti is but the personal rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead
The brahmajyoti, which is greatly appreciated by jñānīs, ... (Brahma-saḿhitā 5.40) Thebrahmajyoti is the beginning of the spiritual world, and beyond the ...
check this link for more info on Brahma Jyothi
http://harekrishna.wikia.com/wiki/Brahmajyoti
We dont have a Personal Relation with krishna in Brahma Jyothi,but we do have spiritual Bliss which is on a a Much much lower level of the vaikuntalokas and theres a tendency to fall down from there Eventually into the material world.
Hare Krishna Gaurav Prabhuju
I read your presentation http://gosai.com/writings/a-short-presentation-on-jiva-tattva
There it's mention that
"The living entities [jivas ] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned... [the first are] always awake to Krsna consciousness,... eternal associates.. eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text) In the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text) "
This presentation does not explain much about eternally conditioned souls..
So the question is eternally contioned souls means they can never be free from maya even after being Krishna conscious 24 hrs a day (eternally these souls have to keep taking birth in material life?)
If answer is NO, then why are these souls called eternally(forever) conditioned.They should be called only "conditioned souls".
Should we say only conditioned souls and remove the word eternally from it, so that it makes us possible to go back to vaikunth lok (after being Krishna conscious).
Please explain the meaning of "eternally conditioned"
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