Hare Krishna,
ŚB 6.4.9
अहस्ता हस्तयुक्तानां द्विपदां च चतुष्पद: ॥ ९ ॥
hy apadaḥ pāda-cāriṇām
ahastā hasta-yuktānāṁ
dvi-padāṁ ca catuṣ-padaḥ
By nature’s arrangement, fruits and flowers are considered the food of insects and birds; grass and other legless living entities are meant to be the food of four-legged animals like cows and buffalo; animals that cannot use their front legs as hands are meant to be the food of animals like tigers, which have claws; and four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings.
Then why it is a sin to eat meat ?
In God's design, one living being is the food of other living beings. Then how can we say He is compassionate ?
Lord Krishna never spoke on the topic of animal killing and meat eating. Nor did Lord Rama.
Moreover they hunted animals in the forest. ( May be Kshatriya Dharma ).
Lord Krishna silently watched, when arjuna hunted down many birds trying to escape during Khandava dahana.
Only devotees like Prabhupada , bhishma and narada showed compassion to animals.
It seems that devotees are more compassionate than Him.
I am wondering, when God himself is indifferent and silent, why meat eating should be a serious topic among devotees ?
Replies
Hare Krsna
Will u tell wht you saw from ŚB 10.69.35 ?
Yes, The purport clarifies that Lord Sri Krsna was performing His Kshatriya duties in-line with vedic shastras & regulations.
Will u tell wht you saw from ŚB 6.4.9 ?
Yes, The shloka describes the food cycle existing in material nature. The purport by Srila Prabhupada clarifies that cows should always be protected.
The above is what I see. There is nothing wrong in Kshatriya performing their duty or nature's food cycle.
Purpose of human life & of this temporary material world is spiritual self realization. Performing prescribed duties is in favour of spiritual self realization. Accepting food is in favour of spiritual self realization. Recommended food for spiritual self realization is grains, fruits, leaves , flowers & milk. But there will always be humans who are more interested in satisfiying their tongue's craving than spiritual realization. It is better to regulate such tendencies rather than leaving them unaddressed. In order to regulate such tendencies in humans, vedic scriptures allow (NOT RECOMMEND) sacrifice of certain animals.
This is like govt regulating the practice smoking by making rules - Should not smoke in public places, Health hazards mandatory, Not allowed to advertize in print/digital media etc. Such regulations should NOT be considered as prescription. It is restriction. In general people don't smoke because govt regulates, It is the other way around. Govt regulates because some people want to smoke & govt can't practically controll all smoking in all places for all times.
Similarly meat eating mentioned in scriptures is NOT A RECOMMENDATION but a REGULATION with purpose to control unrestrcited harm to other beings.That too it is not for all. Those people who are interested in spiritual development naturally restrcit themselves. Those aspiring to rise above material modes also give up. In any case, people dont kill because scriptures say. It is regulated in scriptures because some people have such tendencies to satisfy tongue. If scriptures don't regulate, those poeple will anyway do such acts without any control. So scriptures are not at fault or the regulations in scriptures are not at fault. Those who perfrom acts as per those regulations will not incur sin if done correctly. But the main point is that such acts are not in favour of spiritual development in general. Hunting/Killing of animals/ demons to maintain peace and order is suty of Kshatriyas.
There are no blind absolutes in general in vedic scriptures - 100% No killing or 100% do killing. Both are not recommended. There is subjectivity and there has to be balance.
The above is what I see. There is nothing wrong in Kshatriya performing their duty or nature's food cycle.
Hare Krsna
They show not what you see.
Will u tell wht you saw from ŚB 10.69.35 and ŚB 6.4.9 ?
Hare Krsana
So will you agree that Krishna ate meat ?
I will agree that Krsna can never commit any sin.
these verses show that
They show not what you see.
surely they would cook the flesh and eat right ?
Wrong.
since he is born as a kshatriya and since kshatriyas eat meat, surely he wouldhave eaten meat though it is not specificly mentioned.
Perfect example of how mental speculation leads to wrong, incorrect conclusion.
ISKCON thinks that only their books are authorised
Iskcon is not a person. Iskcon cannot think.
I actual read many books of the same scripture by different authors, compare them
Nobody has problems with such actions.
plz don't think that only prabhupada bhagavatham is authorised
I think, Bhagavatam is authorised. I think transalations & purports by Srila Prabhupada are completely aligned with the original author Vyasadeva. I see it as a possibility that translation & commentaries by other vaishnava acaryas are also authorised.
Without devotion they would not show interest in reading and authoring books..
I disagree. It is not always possible to ascertain intent of an action by observing action, let alone something as sublime as devotion.
But disappointed when I actually started reading puranas
The effect of diligently studying shastra under guidance of a bonafide teacher is NOT disappointment. Parikshit Maharaj heard Bhagavatam from Shukadeva Goswami and Parikshit Maharaj was not disappinted. He was purified, liberated & elated. That is the expected result.
Otherwise how will he cutoff the heads of criminals ? Maybe thats why sastra says to hunt animals to get accustomed to violent behavior.
The underlined word above -"Maybe" seems to be at center of all confusion & disagreement. Sastras rarely use maybe, Learned Acaryas rarely use maybe. Because they are certain of the realization of Supreme absolute truth.
can we conclude that it is not about compassion ?
Feel free to make any conclusions as you may see fit. That is your choice. I do not find much commonality between us to reach a definite conclusion.
Hare Krsna
Will you agree with this rule ? viz. " Eating meat cooked at sacrifice is not a sin . Great sin otherwise or elsewhere " ( accepted in almost all the sastras including Bhagavatham)
I showed reference from Bhagavatham by srila Prabhupada right ?
So will you agree that Krishna ate meat ? ( Becoz, these verses show that it was common for them to hunt animals. Obviously they will eat meat after killing animals right ? May be they would worship gods before eating.. But surely they would cook the flesh and eat right ? Moreover sastras says that there is no sin in eating meat at sacrifice. When Krishna incarnates as a human he behaves like a human eventhough he is Bhagvan. So since he is born as a kshatriya and since kshatriyas eat meat, surely he wouldhave eaten meat though it is not specificly mentioned. )
One more thing is, Iskcon devotees worship lord Krishna in a systematic manner...That is good..
But ISKCON thinks that only their books are authorised..
I am not a kind of person just read one book and come to a conclusion.. I actual read many books of the same scripture by different authors, compare them...I just try to observe, with what kind of mood the author is presenting the verses etc.,We can easily understand if he is having devotion or malintentions...whether he is twisting the meanings etc., I used to go to govt library and read many books of bhagavatham by so many different authors.. Almost all of them have same content in it. same as bhagavatham by srila prabhupada...
These ramayana, mahabharatha, puranas are not familiar to westerners.. But not new to indians..
So, plz don't think that only prabhupada bhagavatham is authorised...There are many devotees outside Iskcon also in India. Without devotion they would not show interest in reading and authoring books..
They may not be pure devotees like ISKCON , but has some kind of devotion.. Becoz in India people from their childhood are familiar with gods names festivals , ladies daily worship dieties, hear stories of rama, krishna from their grandparents littlebit of reading etc.,
But these people are eating meat. though they worship gods.
What I like about Iskcon is that they preach to abstain from eating meat..
So I thought that Rama, Krishna, Pandavas are like Iskcon devotees always compassionate.. But disappointed when I actually started reading puranas
So, can we conclude that it is not about compassion ?( Bcoz those vedic kings clearly hunted animals )
It is all about following sastras...
Ok..sastra says it is forbidden to eat meat... I will not eat ?
Ok, sastra says, since I am Kshatriya, I must hunt... So, I will kill animals..
Ok, sastra says, since I am Kshatriya, I must do yagna... So, I will kill animals..
Moreover, a Kshatriya can never afford to have compassion in his heart..He must have a stone heart...
Otherwise how will he cutoff the heads of criminals ? Maybe thats why sastra says to hunt animals to get accustomed to violent behavior.
Do you agree with this conclusion ?
I have one more question...
Devotees like you say that " Krsna is so compaasionate . He arranged one living entity is food for another living entity ". I just failed to understand what kind of compassion is this ?
As our great devotee asked me, "
" Do you know anyone who will agree to be come meat ?
Just put yourself in the place of the person who is being killed. Would you agree to become meat ? "
I ask you what krishna is thinking about the living entities which were cursed to be the food of others...Why this greatly intelligent devotee is asking this question to me instead of asking the person who made such arrangement ?
I didn't say I like to eat meat..I will be the first one who would condemn and disapprove meat eating...
Becoz I put myselves in the place of those poor animals and imagine their pain...
I have seen meat eaters amongst People who will make a big cry even for the slightest injury they suffer..
These people often argue that God arranged meateating, siting some examples which I showed..
I only asked a question why is it sinful, if the supreme being arranged it so that I become fit to answer them?
People like us who condemn meat eating must be masters of such topic..Thats why we need to clarify all doubts..
Not even the slightest doubt must remain...
We must have thourough understanding of the sastra..Otherwise how will we answer the fools who argue that killing plants is same as killing animals
Hare KRsna Prabhu,
PAMHO.
" Krsna is so compaasionate . He arranged one living entity is food for another living entity ". I just failed to understand what kind of compassion is this ? Have you seen any animal who can consume plastic and digest it? No na. Consuming plastic is causing so many deaths of animals. So God's compassion is He created the world such that one living entity is food for another. By doing so, there is no waste in the eco system. It is a balanced eco system, where no great waste is being accumulated. Nature has its way of clearing the waste and cleansing herself. Isnt that a wonderful, thoughtful creation?
Imagine our jails, do we provide so much flora or fauna or self sufficient eco system to our jails? Can we provide? Think about it. You will get your answer.
As our great devotee asked me, "
" Do you know anyone who will agree to be come meat ?
Just put yourself in the place of the person who is being killed. Would you agree to become meat ? "
I ask you what krishna is thinking about the living entities which were cursed to be the food of others...Why this greatly intelligent devotee is asking this question to me instead of asking the person who made such arrangement ?
I replied to your post because I saw a fight brewing. My purpose was to give a satvik reply and calm both sides. I do not wish to be drawn into these squabbles.
Prabhu, since you are so knowledgeable, you would have read pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya.... - right? If you are asking any question, be prepared for any and every type of answer. It may not be agreeing with you, but why get into fight? If someone is answering your question, then that person can be assumed to be in a higher level than you, right? If yes, then can you not take a little pinch from him? If no, then why bother to reply at all? What is your purpose of asking these questions - seeking answers na. Is it that you are trying to prove your intellectual superiority in finding these queries and asking them here? If yes, we accept. If no, then be open to the answers you receive.
People like us who condemn meat eating must be masters of such topic..Thats why we need to clarify all doubts..
Not even the slightest doubt must remain...
We must have thorough understanding of the sastra..Otherwise how will we answer the fools who argue that killing plants is same as killing animals
To get the answer to this question, please refer to Perfect Questions and Perfect Answers book. Srila Prabhupada has covered it very nicely.
My experience with doubts related to spiritual subject matters is - regardless of how much anyone explains to us, it is REALISED knowledge. It has happened that I have understood something even after 20 years of being part of the movement, or faster - maybe in few months. Sprititual topics are not so easy to understand. It is not only logic that will give us the answer. It is a lot of sadhana, devotion, meditation, service to devotees and surrender to Srila Prabhupada and Krsna that will help.
Give yourself time prabhu. Try prabhu. Wait for the answers to be revealed to you. Then its like sunrise in the heart. The entire heart illuminates, the mind becomes free and you feel great. That time you dont feel on top of the world, you feel that you are at the lotus feet of Their Lordships.
I am not at all stopping you from asking. I am trying to refrain you from getting into fights, accepting the answers provided and meditating on them before asking again.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Radha Rasamayi DD
Hare Krsna
Then why it is a sin to eat meat ?
1. Do you know anyone who will agree to be come meat ? Just put yourself in the place of the person who is being killed.
2. Would you agree to become meat ?
3. If a person kills you and eats you, should he be punished or rewarded for killing ?
Please care to answer these 3 questions if you want me to answer the remaining of your questions.
Hare Krsna
If a person kills you and eats you, should he be punished or rewarded for killing ?
I ask you same question, You answer first..
Did I tell my opinion ?..I clearly quoted from sastra..i.e Bhagavatha revered by vaishnava devotees
wherein it is clearly stated "four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings. "
Referring to sastra, I asked when sastra allowed it, why is it sinful ?
Instead of trying to discuss the sastra you ask me
" Would you agree to become meat ? "
I ask you the same . Since you think you are a great devotee, you may answer, Oh I am a great devotee of Krishna,
I don't care if I become meat and eaten. I dont care if a person kills me and eats me "
But I am not such a great devotee like you. No one wants to get killed. I think even you, who is a great person.
You question the animals killed by Lord Rama, pandavas the great devotees and Lord krishna..
"Kings pursuing games of hunting in great forests, oh, Lakshmana, will be felling deer either for the sake of flesh, or just for the purpose of sporting archery. [3-43-31] "
"This comely Vaidehi will be sitting on that invaluable golden skin of that gem of a deer along with me. [3-43-35] "
"I think the skin of Kadali deer, or of Priyaki deer, or of Praveni deer, or as a matter of fact the skins of best breed of deer or sheep will not be match to the deerskin of this deer, insofar as the soft-touch is concerned. [3-43-36]"
Is there any purana in which there is no deer hunt ? both the Ramayana and mahabharatha begin with the deer hunt. Even the story of Shakuntala’s romance begins with King Dushyanta going on a deer hunt.
Pandu replied, 'O deer, kings behave in the matter of slaying animals of thy species exactly as they do in the matter of slaying foes. It behoveth thee not, therefore, to reprove me thus from ignorance. Animals of thy species are slain by open or covert means. This, indeed, is the practice of kings. Then why dost thou reprove me? Formerly, the Rishi Agastya, while engaged in the performance of a grand sacrifice, chased the deer, and devoted every deer in the forest unto the gods in general. Thou hast been slain, pursuant to the usage sanctioned by such precedent. Wherefore reprovest us then? For his especial sacrifices Agastya performed the homa with fat of the deer.'
Now will you dare Rishi Agastya to ask this question ?
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