Even though this matter has been discussed earlier, i think this topic deserves a page/thread of its own.
After discussing this with IDT members, i came to know that the real karta is Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti, but due to Krishna's illusory power, we the jivatmas instead think that we are the doers.
Now, if its Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti who's doing everything and if the soul itself isn't doing anything but simply powering the machine called body then isn't it Krishna or his shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed for everything?
I mean, maya/prakriti produces pancha-mahabhutas, which in turn produces the mind and false ego.
So in my opinion its the Lord's shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed.
But Gayatri ji yesterday explained to me that its the false ego which is the culprit.
My question is, isn't false ego a product of maya/prakriti?
According to Gayatri ji, all the jivatmas in this universe, are equally gifted with mind and false-ego, from sinners like Hitler... to Saints like Haridas Thakura. Now what we do with this mind and false ego is up to us. And so it is our mind and false ego which is to be blamed. Not the Lord or His shakti maya/prakriti.
My question is, why gift us with a tool in the first place that is inclined towards evil? ... And more importantly a tool which is always under the spell of maya/prakriti's 3 gunas. Because of this spell we are always under the delusion of doership and always performing merits and incurring sins ... and therefore trapped in the cycle of reincarnation. In other words, why did Lord create his maya shakti to entrap the jivatmas in the cycle of reincarnation?
Would love to hear your views. Thank you.
Replies
One more Important thing I wanted to add is.
We keep on saying desire is the root cause of all evil. Just add " Material Desire"
Because there are spiritual desires. Some what to go to goloka, some have spiritual desire to attain liberation moksha etc. So all desires are not bad.
We are not mayavaadi's or Buddhists, because they say remove desires and ignorance is gone. they run to jungles to shut all their senses and keep away from people. and think they have overcomed their desires and they got enlightenment. Only to know that when they return back to normal world they again desire for material things and lust etc. We have seen Vishwamitra and many rishi's who did tapasya for many many years and yet when the senses are agitated by some sense object they got back all the desires which they supressed.
To remove desires totally is not possible but we can replace the desires with Spiritual desires.
When we go for higher desires, lower desires automatically will go away from us gradually.
hare krishna
I need to ask you one thing. Who invented the word mayavada? Did the ancient sages or Vishnu himself used this word in the scriptures? Just curious. :)
Hare Krsna
The word mayavada was used by Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
jīvera nistāra lāgi’ sūtra kaila vyāsa
māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa
“Śrīla Vyāsadeva presented the Vedānta philosophy for the deliverance of conditioned souls, but if one hears the commentary of Śaṅkarācārya, everything is spoiled. (CC Madhya 6.169)
Cautionary Warning : Any promotion of mayavad will not be tolerated in these forums / discussions
Hare Krsna
So your Third doubt that is.. Who is the real doer.
Real doer is always Krishna.
Tell me Practically do we exist seperately away from Krishna? We have been telling time and again we are part and parcel of Krishna. Jivatma and parmatama milan is only called Bhakti yoga.
So, who is the person that is existing in reality?
If you see Vishwarupa of Lord. Lord is occupying all whole Brahmanda.
Vishvam Vishnu vashatkaro bhoota bhavya bhavat Prabhuh: ( first sloka of Sri Vishnu Sahasranama).
It means Whole brahmanda is occupied by Lord. Do we Jiva exist somewhere away from Lord. Or Are we embedded in Lord.
there are 10000's hands, thousands of limbs, 1000's of mouths. you read in the creation chapter of SB. right?
Lord is present in the heart as Parmatma, as well as we are inside Lord. Practically speaking because of false ego we are thinking we are this body. But actually we are a tiny cells in the Body of Lord.
so, now it is easy to think that we are not the doer.
SEE, If you are a finger of Lord's body . If Lord wants to raise His finger up. He can do it. But this finger thinking that he is the one who can raise up. Its false ego.
Now tell who is the doer?
Hare Krishna Prabhu ji,
Why so much confusion? You are uncessarily dragging the topic too much and make me confused.
In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Kṛṣṇa.( SB 3.26.23-24)
When the soul is under the spell of material nature and false ego, identifying his body as the self, he becomes absorbed in material activities, and by the influence of false ego he thinks that he is the proprietor of everything.( 3. 27.2 SB)
The conditioned soul thinks, "I am this body," but a liberated soul thinks, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." This "I am" is called ego, or identification of the self. "I am this body" or "Everything in relationship to the body is mine" is called false ego, but when one is self-realized and thinks that he is an eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord, that identification is real ego.( SB-3.27.13)
Material bondage is caused by putting oneself under the control of matter because of the false ego of lording it over material nature.( 3.27.20)
Material desires are based on the false ego of the living being and are exhibited by his childish and useless activities to conquer the laws of material nature and by his desire to lord it over the resources of the five elements. With such a mentality, one is led to believe in the strength of material science, with its discovery of atomic energy and space travel by mechanical vehicles, and by such tiny advancements in material science the false egoist tries to challenge even the strength of the Supreme Lord, who can finish all man's tiny endeavors in less than a second.( SB 2.2.19. purport).
Desire is the root of all evil. I have explained at length in the previous question about How desires are the root of all problems. But you just kept on and on dragging.
Under the pressure of false ego, the conditioned souls, although parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, claim to be the enjoyers of material nature. This false ego is the binding force of material existence. The Lord again and again gives a chance to the bewildered conditioned souls to get free from this false ego, and that is why the material creation takes place at intervals. He gives the conditioned souls all facilities for rectifying the activities of the false ego, but He does not interfere with their small independence as parts and parcels of the Lord. ( 3. 5. 28 purport SB)
Now be pleased, my Lord, to dispel my great delusion. Due to my feeling of false ego, I have been engaged by Your māyā and have identified myself with the body and consequent bodily relations. ( SB 3. 25. 10)
When the living entity becomes free from false ego, he understands his superior position as a spirit soul, part and parcel of the pleasure potency of the Lord. Thus, due to Brahman, even while sleeping the living entity can enjoy. (SB 6.15. 55 purport)
My dear Parīkṣit, when the illusory false ego that binds the soul has been cut off with the sword of discriminating knowledge and one has developed realization of Lord Acyuta, the Supreme Soul, this is called the ātyantika, or ultimate, annihilation of material existence. ( SB 12.4.34 )
The living entity has this tendency of falling down by dint of misidentifying himself as fully independent to lord it over the material world. The root cause of all troubles is there in false egotism. ( SB 1.9.22)
Hare Krishna
Is there an option to remain in Krishna's spiritual kingdom after moksha and at the same time not get involved in the singing, dancing, playing that goes on over there as a part of his leela? Not everyone likes to play and dance, you see. But i still like Krishna. Not as a playmate but as a teacher. Do you think he imparts gyan to his devotees in goloka?
Hmm, so you are thinking mukti or moksha is the ultimate goal isn't it.@Anirudh pr.
but above moksha is bhakti and prema. to realize that you need to give up even the gyana.
one who loses all pride of even knowledge also and becomes maddened with Love for shyam sundar is only allowed in Goloka Vrindavan.
Gyani's can at max. get Sayujiya mukti. which in terms of bhakti is spiritual suicide.
Pride of Knowledge at some point makes people arrogant and fall down., you will have to take birth again to realize krishna prem.
Not everyone likes singing and dancing. That includes me ;-) I wish there was a heaven in our religion where people would rather attend serious lectures or rather be absorbed in deep meditation, without any disturbance and noise that usually comes from songs and music. Just saying.
Gyan marg ( Mayavaadi ) only follow can max. get to only Brahma jyoti.
Pride of knoweldge is only a hinderance to progress in bhakti at a point and there is surely a falling down again ...Its okay you will come back again to Earth and learn what is Krishna prema and it is just going to make ur journey to goloka a little late thats all.
Hello, Gayatri ji. This is going to be a long post. I request you to read with patience. Thank you.
Iskcon people say there is falling down again from brahmajyoti but they also admit that there is falling down from Goloka as well for liberated souls, when the thought arises in their mind "that i shall not serve krishna anymore and would like to live independently" ... isn't it so Gayatri ji? I read this many years ago in some hare krishna article. Don't have the link to that article. But you can always google it. Google is our friend :)
...........
Also If i'm not mistaken, iskcon people say that brahmajyoti is inferior to Krishna's two handed form. Merging into brahmajyoti is also inferior compared to spending time in Goloka. Isn't this what iskcon say? :)
But the learned non-dualist sages (like Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Shankaracharya) they all say that brahman or brahmajyoti is the background of everything. Its the source of everything. And that everything appears and dissapears within its infinite body of light. Just like waves rises and merges back into the ocean, same way jivas and jagat manifests and demanifests within this infinite field of Brahman.
Now you tell me Gayatri ji who is correct, the iskcon people or the non-dualists? ... Well, in my humble opinion, no one is wrong. Each has their own path to attain nirvana. Some prefer idol worship, bhakti, singing and dancing ... while others prefer gyan and meditation. Both the bhakta and gyani reaches his preferred destination.
The bhaktaas spends time with Krishna in goloka which is also liberation, and from there souls again fall down to material world when the thought arises in their head to live independently ... And the non-dualists also attain liberation by merging into brahman, and lose their individual identity... But if the need arises this infinite brahman or brahmajyoti again assumes the forms of mortal individuals and comes down into material world.
I like Krishna, don't get me wrong but I prefer the path of the gyaanis :) The iskcon people may call it mayavada, but many liberated non-dualist sages (Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi) don't call it mayavada because its just another path (different from the bhaktaas) to attain moksha. :)
Krishna mentioned about the impersonalist gyaanis in the gita. He never said that their path is mayavadi / false / bogus. He never showed any discrimination towards the gyaanis. He even explained to Arjuna about the various ashtanga meditation practices in Gita. What im trying to say is, Krishna never said their path is false, since everyone is his children ... But yes, its true that Krishna instead said that the path of bhakti is the easiest.
Jai sree krishna. Peace out :)
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