Even though this matter has been discussed earlier, i think this topic deserves a page/thread of its own.

After discussing this with IDT members, i came to know that the real karta is Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti, but due to Krishna's illusory power, we the jivatmas instead think that we are the doers. 

Now, if its Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti who's doing everything and if the soul itself isn't doing anything but simply powering the machine called body then isn't it Krishna or his shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed for everything? 

I mean, maya/prakriti produces pancha-mahabhutas, which in turn produces the mind and false ego.

So in my opinion its the Lord's shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed.

But Gayatri ji yesterday explained to me that its the false ego which is the culprit.

My question is, isn't false ego a product of maya/prakriti?

According to Gayatri ji, all the jivatmas in this universe, are equally gifted with mind and false-ego, from sinners like Hitler... to Saints like Haridas Thakura. Now what we do with this mind and false ego is up to us. And so it is our mind and false ego which is to be blamed. Not the Lord or His shakti maya/prakriti.

My question is, why gift us with a tool in the first place that is inclined towards evil? ... And more importantly a tool which is always under the spell of maya/prakriti's 3 gunas. Because of this spell we are always under the delusion of doership and always performing merits and incurring sins ... and therefore trapped in the cycle of reincarnation. In other words, why did Lord create his maya shakti to entrap the jivatmas in the cycle of reincarnation?

Would love to hear your views. Thank you. 

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  • One more Important thing I wanted to add is.

    We keep on saying desire is the root cause of all evil.  Just add " Material Desire"

    Because there are spiritual desires. Some what to go to goloka, some have spiritual desire to attain liberation moksha etc. So all desires are not bad.

    We are not mayavaadi's or Buddhists, because they say remove desires and ignorance is gone. they run to jungles to shut all their senses and keep away from people. and think they have overcomed their desires and they got enlightenment. Only to know that when they return back to normal world they again desire for material things and lust etc. We have seen Vishwamitra and many rishi's who did tapasya for many many years and yet when the senses are agitated by some sense object they got back all the desires which they supressed.

    To remove desires totally is not possible but we can replace the desires with Spiritual desires. 

    When we go for higher desires, lower desires automatically will go away from us gradually.

    hare krishna

    • I need to ask you one thing. Who invented the word mayavada? Did the ancient sages or Vishnu himself used this word in the scriptures? Just curious. :)

      • Sevak

        Hare Krsna 

        The word mayavada was used by Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. 

        jīvera nistāra lāgi’ sūtra kaila vyāsa
        māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa

        “Śrīla Vyāsadeva presented the Vedānta philosophy for the deliverance of conditioned souls, but if one hears the commentary of Śaṅkarācārya, everything is spoiled. (CC Madhya 6.169)

        Cautionary Warning : Any promotion of mayavad will not be tolerated in these forums / discussions

        Hare Krsna

  • So your Third doubt that is.. Who is the real doer.

    Real doer is always Krishna.

    Tell me Practically do we exist seperately away from Krishna? We have been telling time and again we are part and parcel of Krishna. Jivatma and parmatama milan is only called  Bhakti yoga.

    So, who is the person that is existing in reality? 

    If you see Vishwarupa of Lord. Lord is occupying all whole Brahmanda.

    Vishvam Vishnu vashatkaro bhoota bhavya bhavat Prabhuh:  ( first sloka of Sri Vishnu Sahasranama).

    It means Whole brahmanda is occupied by Lord. Do we Jiva exist somewhere away from Lord. Or Are we embedded in Lord.

     there are 10000's hands,  thousands of limbs, 1000's of mouths. you read in the creation chapter of SB. right?

    Lord is present in the heart as Parmatma, as well as we are inside Lord.   Practically speaking because of false ego we are thinking we are this body. But actually we are a tiny cells in the Body of Lord.

    so, now it is easy to think that we are not the doer.

    SEE, If  you are a finger of Lord's body . If Lord wants to raise His finger up. He can do it.  But this finger thinking that he is the one who can raise up. Its false ego.

    Now tell who is the doer? 


  •  Hare Krishna Prabhu ji,

    Why so much confusion? You are uncessarily dragging the topic too much and make me confused.


    In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Kṛṣṇa.( SB 3.26.23-24)


    When the soul is under the spell of material nature and false ego, identifying his body as the self, he becomes absorbed in material activities, and by the influence of false ego he thinks that he is the proprietor of everything.( 3. 27.2 SB)


    The conditioned soul thinks, "I am this body," but a liberated soul thinks, "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." This "I am" is called ego, or identification of the self. "I am this body" or "Everything in relationship to the body is mine" is called false ego, but when one is self-realized and thinks that he is an eternal servitor of the Supreme Lord, that identification is real ego.( SB-3.27.13)


    Material bondage is caused by putting oneself under the control of matter because of the false ego of lording it over material nature.( 3.27.20)


    Material desires are based on the false ego of the living being and are exhibited by his childish and useless activities to conquer the laws of material nature and by his desire to lord it over the resources of the five elements. With such a mentality, one is led to believe in the strength of material science, with its discovery of atomic energy and space travel by mechanical vehicles, and by such tiny advancements in material science the false egoist tries to challenge even the strength of the Supreme Lord, who can finish all man's tiny endeavors in less than a second.( SB 2.2.19. purport).

    Desire is the root of all evil.  I have explained at length in the previous question about How desires are the root of all problems. But you just kept on and on dragging. 


    Under the pressure of false ego, the conditioned souls, although parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, claim to be the enjoyers of material nature. This false ego is the binding force of material existence. The Lord again and again gives a chance to the bewildered conditioned souls to get free from this false ego, and that is why the material creation takes place at intervals. He gives the conditioned souls all facilities for rectifying the activities of the false ego, but He does not interfere with their small independence as parts and parcels of the Lord. ( 3. 5. 28 purport SB)


    Now be pleased, my Lord, to dispel my great delusion. Due to my feeling of false ego, I have been engaged by Your māyā and have identified myself with the body and consequent bodily relations. ( SB 3. 25. 10)


    When the living entity becomes free from false ego, he understands his superior position as a spirit soul, part and parcel of the pleasure potency of the Lord. Thus, due to Brahman, even while sleeping the living entity can enjoy. (SB 6.15. 55 purport)


    My dear Parīkṣit, when the illusory false ego that binds the soul has been cut off with the sword of discriminating knowledge and one has developed realization of Lord Acyuta, the Supreme Soul, this is called the ātyantika, or ultimate, annihilation of material existence. ( SB 12.4.34 )


    The living entity has this tendency of falling down by dint of misidentifying himself as fully independent to lord it over the material world. The root cause of all troubles is there in false egotism. ( SB 1.9.22)

    Hare Krishna

  • https://vedabase.io/en/library/bg/15/16/

    Bg. 15.16
  • The soul is covered by a subtle body (material mind, intelligence and ego) Whenn it comes into contact with material nature which covers its pure nature. The real ego of the soul is servant of Krishna (and participating in His lila ... Now for some reason we decided not to participate in Krishna lila but make our own lila (in the material world). You have to at some point stop crying and realize the first point in spiritual matter 'Brahman' what is Brahman? What is spirit. This is the whole point. Everything that happens in the material world is temp Because Krishna-lila is eternal. Our real body is spiritual called a siddha-deha (which entitles us to participate in krishna-lila. I am repeating because the 'lila' we are in is a gross refection of the real lila in the spiritual world. We kinda think usually 'oh lila' but right now we doing some mundane lila too. 

    You asked about why didnt krishna just make us enjoy in the spiritual world why did we have to come here? The problem is Krishna is the enjoyer and we are the enjoyed. Krishna has given the soul (we) spiritual independance. (JIVA-tattva) We are a tattva. Our inate nature is being independant (but we want to be without Krishna) and thats where the problem starts. We dont understand (I am repeating what Prabhupada always says) that we can only be happy with Krishna. Then we can stop Samsara -repeated birth and death. 

    You asked why is their so much evil in the world.. This is the domain of maha-maya, now go back to what i said in start. Who are we? Spirit. What is our goal? To realize we are souls and servants of Krishna (servant in the sence that we are to have love of Krishna and SERVE IN HIS LILA. This is the meaning of servant not some mundane servant. Hare Krishna

    • Is there an option to remain in Krishna's spiritual kingdom after moksha and at the same time not get involved in the singing, dancing, playing that goes on over there as a part of his leela? Not everyone likes to play and dance, you see. But i still like Krishna. Not as a playmate but as a teacher. Do you think he imparts gyan to his devotees in goloka?

      • Hmm, so you are thinking mukti or moksha is the ultimate goal isn't it.@Anirudh pr.

        but above moksha is bhakti and prema. to realize that you need to give up even the gyana.

        one who loses all pride of even knowledge also and becomes maddened with Love for shyam sundar is only allowed in Goloka Vrindavan. 

        Gyani's can at max. get Sayujiya mukti. which in terms of bhakti is spiritual suicide.

        Pride of Knowledge at some point makes people arrogant and fall down., you will have to take birth again to realize krishna prem.


      • I dont think its like a musical there Prabhu, ) Just singing and dancing.

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