I'm inquiring this to clear some confusion I have concerning the fate of Jay and Vijaya after their third birth as Sisupala and Dantavakra. Before their fall because of the curse of the four Kumaras, Lord Vishnu mitigated their sorrow by assuring them that they will be reunited with Him soon after the curse has run its course. (SB: 3.16.26) How did Jay and Vijaya reunited with Lord VIshnu? Were they restored to the original personal form or did they merge into the body of Lord Krishna because in the Srimad Bhagavatam: 7.1.14, Maharaja Yudhisthira saw Sisupala merge in the body of the Supreme Lord, Krishna after Sisupala was killed by the Lord? Could it be that it is the result of the offense committed at the lotus feet of Goddess Lakhsmi by stopping Her at the gate while Lord Vishnu was sleeping (SB:3.16.30)? Or is it all pre-ordanined by the Lord Himself for His pleasure? Maharaja Yudhisthira also inquired about this in particular because there is no way of any liberated souls falling down from Vaikuntha but Jay and Vijaya somehow did? My question, was it because of the Supreme will of Lord Vishnu or because of the offense committed to Goddess Lakhsmi or because of the curse of the four Kumaras? If it is either one of the cause or all of it, do Jay and Vijaya deserve to lose their identity by granting the merging of their soul into the body of the Lord? Please kindly clarify me on this? 

Hare Krishna.

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                    • Well said Bharat prabhu,

                      To add more to what is above said.

                      Defination of matter is not only that which occupies space and has a mass ( as per elemantary Physcis)  there is something more to It which is Time.

                      That which changes with time is called matter.

                      Ideas- change with time, Lust - changes with time, memories- forgotten changes, happiness and sadness- change over a period of time. today you are happy tomorrow sad, 

                      Intelligence - today ur intellect is good after 90+ yrs the same person's intellect is dull.

                      Mind- also changes with time.

                      False ego- when you are a baby you didnt have any false ego..over time you felt I am great then all these others as I know much better then others. This is one type of false ego which increases over time with age.

                      So this is the nature of material things they change with time.

                      They have shape and size.?

                      Love is measurable ( love doesn't exist on this earth  but the so called love ( selfish lust) is also changeable with time some person is more dear today tomorrow he or she become enemy..., so is your memory it can be measured these days. 

                      how much love you show to one person and how much enemity is shown is also measurable thing. 

                      Love for one person it is more for another person the same love is less.

                      ideas can be stopped they can be controlled. 

                      happiness and sadness are measurable-- Sometimes we reaact to certain situations with great emotions at times we don't react at all.

                      So we can measure these things ..is it not?

                      Size-

                      Soul is part of Supersoul or you can say it is a part of Lord's Spiritual body. If Lord is occupying the three worlds in His Vishwa roopa . You know where you will be? you will be one of the tiny cells in  HIs body. Or even a part of tip of His hair on His Chest or On His Hand.

                      Hare Krishna.

          • Sevak

            Hare Krsna 

            What is material and what is spiritual ?

            This is addressed by Lord Sri Krsna in Bhagavad Gita as below

            bhūmir āpo ’nalo vāyuḥ
            khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca
            ahaṅkāra itīyaṁ me
            bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā

            Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego – all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.(BG 7.4)

            Lord Sri Krsna describes any entity made of the above 8 constituting elements as belonging to materla energy or matter. As per this thoughts, memories etc which are part of mind is also material. Even ideas, theories, decision making etc which make up for intelligence are material. 

            Spiritual means sat-cit-ananda -  eternal, cognizant and blissful. 

            Living beings which are conscious are spiritual by nature. (BG 7.5) 

            Material means it has beginning and end. Like living body made of material elements. The soul is spiritual. It is eternal. It does not have beginning or end. 

            Soul is indestructible, therefore is this an implication to state that the soul has a material state ?

            No. Soul is indestructible. It is always spiritual. It does not have any material state.

            It is also said that the size of the sole is one ten thousand the size of a tip of a hair, therefore does this not contradict the concept of it being spiritual? 

            No. 

            Hare Krsna

            • I don't understand how mind and false ego can be classed as matter, you cannot "see" the mind and the same for false ego, but you can experience one's thoughts and their ego if they wish to share them. Mind is a culmination of cognitive aspects such as thoughts, intelligence, judgement, perception and language etc, how can these things be classed as material ? They are simply a result of information that is processed in one's brain. The same for ego, however earth, water, fire and air yes although you can also drill down into atoms, molecules, gases and material (wood, iron, carbon etc).

              So if Spiritual means eternal, cognizant and bliss, that means it's based on one's thoughts i.e. spirituality is a state of one's mind therefore is not material. The state being a result of the conscious material brain. So based on this one can transfer thoughts to others and therefore you can make the argument that their "soul" is undestructible, so doesn't this just mean that soul = personality? (based on the assumption that it is not material)

              No. Soul is indestructible. It is always spiritual. It does not have any material state.

              If it does not have a material state, then why are we told it's size? i.e. one ten thousand the size of a tip of hair? this clearly contradicts the above, in fact, this claim was posted very clearly in earlier posts. ( https://iskcondesiretree.com/profiles/blogs/size-of-the-soul )

              It also states that is situated near the heart. So this would imply it is material.

              Here are some more references

              Page 50 - The science of Self Realization (Prabhupada)

              But advancement of science will not be able to find the soul. The soul's presence can simply be accepted on circumstan­tial understanding. You will find in the Vedic literature that the dimen­sion of the soul is one ten-thousandth the size of a point.

              Page 213 - The science of Self Realization (Prabhupada)

              According to the Vedas, the measurement of the soul within the bodyis one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is very small; in fact, it is atomic.

              Page 235 - The science of Self Realization (Prabhupada)

              "There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of a hair." Because we have no instrument to measure the dimensions of the spirit soul, the small particle of spirit soul is measured in this way. In other words, the soul is so small that it is smaller than an atom. That small particle is within you, within me, within the elephant, within gigantic animals, in all men, in the ant, in the tree, everywhere

              This is contracdicting itself in that he's saying it's one ten-thousands of the upper portian of a hair, yet at the same time saying we cannot measure it as it's smaller than an atom, so I suppose the question here is, how did they measure it? This also contradicts the Gita below as that clearly states the size.

              Page 121 - Text 17 - Bhagavad Gita as it is

              This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad confirms this:

              bālāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā kalpitasya ca
              bhāgo jīvaḥ sa vijñeyaḥ sa cānantyāya kalpate.

              "When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul."

               

               

              Size of the soul
              The size of the soul is one ten - thousandth part of the tip of the hair. It means that if we take the tip of the hair and cut it into one ten - thou…
              • Sevak

                Hare Krsna

                how can mind be classed as material ?

                Because Krsna says so. Krsna is the creator  of the entrire world and Lord Sri Krsna knows best what His creation is. Just because something is intangible does not mean it automatically becomes spiritual. As mentioned previously spiritual means sat-cit-ananda. Earth, water, fire, air and ether are gross material elements. Mind, intelligence and false ego are subtle material elements. 

                Spiritual means eternal, cognizant and bliss, that means it's based on one's thoughts i.e. spirituality is a state of one's mind

                Above is false. Spirituality is not state of mind. 

                If soul not have a material state, then why are we told it's size?

                Why Not. Why can't spiritual entities have size ? Most of the doubts that have been raised here seems to be due to confusion between matter(anything that has mass and occupies space) as taught in primary school science. It is not the same as material elements and spiritual entities that vedic science describes. 

                Krsna says soul is spiritual and it has tiny dimension. Simple. 

                Hare Krsna

    • Hare Krishna,

      Thank you for your reply. 

  • Hare Krishna,

    In the purport of  this sloka pls. check

    https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/7/1/46/

    In their last birth, Jaya and Vijaya did not become demons or Rākṣasas. Instead they took birth in a very exalted kṣatriyafamily related to Kṛṣṇa’s family. They became first cousins of Lord Kṛṣṇa and were practically on an equal footing with Him. By personally killing them with His own disc, Lord Kṛṣṇa destroyed whatever sinful reactions were left in them because of the curse of the brāhmaṇas. Nārada Muni explained to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira that by entering Kṛṣṇa’s body, Śiśupāla reentered Vaikuṇṭhaloka as the Lord’s associate. Everyone had seen this incident.

    https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/7/1/47/

    Whatever their position, certainly Jaya and Vijaya always thought of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore at the end of the mauṣala-līlā,these two associates of the Lord returned to Kṛṣṇa. There is no difference between Kṛṣṇa’s body and Nārāyaṇa’s body. Therefore although they visibly entered the body of Kṛṣṇa, they actually reentered Vaikuṇṭhaloka as the doorkeepers of Lord Viṣṇu. Through Lord Kṛṣṇa’s body, they returned to Vaikuṇṭha, although they seemed to have attained sāyujya-mukti in Kṛṣṇa’s body.

    Everything is happening as per Lord's direction. Cause of all causes is Lord. Yes. It is approved by HIM only.

    https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/3/16/26/

    The Lord replied: O brāhmaṇas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

    Purport

    The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord’s sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord’s devotees in Vaikuṇṭha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord; otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

    Hare Krishna

    ŚB 7.1.46
    • Hare Krishna,

      Thank you for your reply. It cleared some of the things I've been trying to understand. As a follow up, do the incident of Jaya and Vijaya imply a lack of free will or limited amount of free will in their actions (and in ours') since it was all pre-ordained by the Supreme Lord? Also, can we take the incident as a hint as to how the jivas fell from their original place? Jivas are described as "marginal energy" which either gets engulfed by the material energy or by the spiritual energy. So, is it possible that the jivas go back and forth to either spiritual world or material world in an eternal struggle by their own limited choice and, do their choices get influence by the will of the Supreme Lord Krishna? Was the incident of Jaya and Vijaya anecdotal just to set an example or does it apply on how some of the jivas fell? Do the ordinary souls, except exalted personalities like Jaya and Vijaya, remain eternally marginal energy or do they get elevated to the position of Nitya Siddhas, that their position is not truly eternal if they make the right decision?

      "Through Lord Kṛṣṇa’s body, they returned to Vaikuṇṭha, although they seemed to have attained sāyujya-mukti in Kṛṣṇa’s body."

      I see but what about Kamsa, Bhauma, Kesi and various other demons who were killed by Lord Krishna? Do they require closer examination to understand their unique hostile relationship with Lord Krishna? In case of Kamsa, he was fully absorbed in the thought of Krishna even though it was in the mood of animosity. Did he get Sārūpya-mukti like Jaya and Vijaya or were Jaya and Vijaya an exception in attaining Sārūpya-mukti after being killed by Supreme Lord Krishna because of His promise? Furthermore, if a demon gets delivered by the Supreme Lord and by default attain sāyujya-mukti, what happens to them after their term of liberation (sāyujya-mukti ) expire? Since it is virtually impossible to lose the identity of individual soul by the so called "merging" of oneself into the body of the Supreme Lord or the Brahmajyoti, do they return back on the material realm? If they do return what happens to these souls after they get back? Do they live a life of penance and devotion to realize the Supreme Person or do they get entangled once again in the labyrinthe of Mahamaya?

      Hare Krishna!

       

      • Hare Krishna,

        These Jaya Vijaya are actually not falling actually it is by Lord's own will they are coming down to take part in Lord's leelas. Actually speaking once you attain Vaikunta there is no falling from there. It is for performing leela and taking part along with Lord they came putting on a mask of villan to fulfil the curse ( but this all is sanctioned by Lord)  after the drama is over they went back.

        Aghasura and Paudarak only attained swaroopya mukti. Putana attained eternal abode of Lord got the status of mother.

        Rest all demons attained the original form and places from they have descended. Kamsa and Bhaumasura got sayujya mukti. It is a kind of mukti were there is merging into to Lord's efflugence but they have not attained prema yet. So the cleansing is not yet finished.

        Until you attain prema and serve Lord you are not going back to Godhead and liberation 5 kinds out of them  Sayujya mukti is one kind where you need to come back to material world and do bhakti and go back to Lord with love for Him and serve HIM in HIs abode. That is only called complete surrender.

        See..If a person is killed there is no surrender feeling in him yet. A person is killed in defence or sometimes Lord Kills him to let the soul get another birth to cleanse oneself by doing bhakti.

        As this Kamsa was all the time remembering Lord in fear he was killed and got sayujya mukti. But the pravrutti in the soul is not yet cleansed. 

        Kamsa in comparision with Jaya Vijaya is not so great. Jaya Vijaya are eternal servants of Lord already. They came going only as per the direction of Lord and helped Lord in perfoming leela by enacting a bad character. 

        But Kamsa or Bhaumasura are not like them. They cannot get sarupya mukti. They will get only sayujya mukti and they will come back to the material world and perform bhakti and go back finally to Lord's abode.

        And jaya vijaya did this vaishnava aparadh against kumaras as per leela of Lord it has to happen like this and this jaya vijaya are an exception.

        In Chaitanya Charitamrita again these jagai madhai are same jaya vijaya and protected by Lord Nityananda and instead of getting killed this time they got initiated to take harinaam and become completely purified and go back to God. See they attained prema ...actually whenever Lord comes down to perform leela His whole entourage all the time comes with him all play a part in that leela to teach us something some play negative characters some play positive some are devotees. In gaura leela every one came. .. Including  Brahma, Narada, Maha Vishnu, Radharani..Hanumaan. so many characters came all at once.

        Narad - Srivaasa

        Maha Vishnu - Advaita Acharaya

        Radharani- Gadhadhara

        Brahma+ Prahalada= Haridas thakur

        Murari gupta- Hanumaan.

        Jagaai madhaai- Jaya Vijaya.

        These are not demons.. They are all devotees eternally Lord's nitya sevaks.

        They are not marginal thathastha jivas.

        Jivas are nitya bhadhas ( eternal bhaddhas). 

        and according to Jiva Goswami these Jaya Vijaya portion of play ( the negative villan characters) wont be repeated by same jaya vijaya every time.  I mean this wont happen in every kalpa. Hirayankasha, Hiranayakashyap this Ravana Kumbhakarna, Shishupala Dantavaktra characters would be played by the jivas the conditioned souls who are waiting for being killed at Lord's hands ( example these atheists). Not all the time Jaya Vijaya only do the mistake and fall down. It wont happen like this again and again. Even if it happens it wont be repeated the same way like blaspheming of Kumaras etc. there will be change in the story. These Jaya Vijaya might do the leela playing part of villan again who knows ( Hari anantha Hari Katha annatha).

        Keshi was actually in his previous birth a servant to Indra in heaven and he stole the horse which was kept by Indra for performing ashwamedha yaga. So Indra cursed him to become a horse- demon. 

        Many other demons some were gandharvas some some rishi who got cursed and all got relieved of the curses got back to the original forms and places. demon Keshi got sayujya mutkti as it was killed at the hands of krishna. All these would get a birth again practise Bhakti and reach back to Lord's abode.

        Hare Krishna.

        • Hare Krishna,

          "His whole entourage all the time comes with him all play a part in that leela to teach us something some play negative characters some play positive some are devotees."

          Even though Kamsa, Kesi, Aghasura etc. and Jaya and Vijaya were not on the same level, can these other demons, besides Jaya and Vijaya, be considered "entourage of the Supreme Lord"? If that is the case, is it correct in considering that the whole population, whether in large number or small number, whether they are taking the leading role or are in the background as witnesses, either as one of the residents in the area, or servant in the palace or a passersby, surrounding the Supreme Lord Krishna or any of His avataras at any given point in time, place and circumstance, if they are playing a role in any one of His pastimes, be considered one of His entourage regardless of their significance or how good, bad or neutral the characters are?

          Are the demons, like Rahu, in the Samudra Manthan a part of the Lord's entourage? Some of the characters like Asvatthama who had direct interaction with the Supreme Lord but instead got curse by the Supreme Lord because of his heinous crime be considered a part of the Supreme Lord's entourage? What about those who thrashed Haridas Thakura? Even though they did not had direct interaction with the Lord (correct me if I am wrong), they committed a grievous sin against one of the most exalted Vaishnavas. Are people like these a part of Lord's entourage because, though heinous, they did play a part?

          Finally, am I right in assuming that the Supreme Lord protected Jaya and Vijaya from their sins of atrocities committed by them during their time as demons against others including Brahmanas because Lord Krishna did declared in the Bhagavad Gita that He will protect those who totally surrender unto Him from all sinful reactions. Am I right in assuming that the actions of great personalities like Jaya and Vijaya, who are vaishnavas, sometimes involve "sinful" actions because the Supreme Lord desired it from them? 

          Thank you for your reply.

          Hare Krishna.

          • No not all of them. All those who are coming to be a part of the play are all nitya siddha devotees or sadhana siddhas. Not these muslims who thrashed haridas thakura.

            only exalted vaishnavas come along with Lord.  

            Jaya Vijaya are playing negative characters even though they are exalted devotees and eternal servants of Lord for a they want to get back to Vaikunta faster. They requested Lord to let them be enemies so that they can come back faster.

            I think you are taking wrongly and interpreting my statement wrongly.

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