Spiritual Form

Hare krishna... Does the form in the spiritual world of a living entity remains fixed.. Like if someone is a grass in spiritual world,  he would eternally remain a grass and serve Krishna or can one change from grass to becoming friend or elephant or relative to serve Krishna ... It is said that variety is the mother of enjoyment... How do we understand this? 

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        • Although the polestar existed before its occupation by Dhruva Mahārāja, it had no predominating deity. Dhruvaloka, our polestar, is the center for all other stars and solar systems, for all of them circle around Dhruvaloka just as a bull crushes grains by walking around and around a central pole. Dhruva wanted the best of all planets, and although it was a childish prayer, the Lord satisfied his demand. A small child may demand something from his father which his father has never given to anyone else, yet out of affection the father offers it to the child; similarly, this unique planet, Dhruvaloka, was offered to Mahārāja Dhruva. The specific significance of this planet is that until the entire universe is annihilated this planet will remain, even during the devastation which takes place during the night of Lord Brahmā. There are two kinds of dissolutions: one during the night of Lord Brahmā and one at the end of Lord Brahmā’s life. At the end of Brahmā’s life, selected personalities go back home, back to Godhead. Dhruva Mahārāja is one of them. The Lord assured Dhruva that he would exist beyond the partial dissolution of this universe. Thus at the end of the complete dissolution, Dhruva Mahārāja would go directly to Vaikuṇṭhaloka, to a spiritual planet in the spiritual sky. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura comments in this connection that Dhruvaloka is one of the lokas like Śvetadvīpa, Mathurā and Dvārakā. They are all eternal places in the kingdom of Godhead, which is described in the Bhagavad-gītā (tad dhāma paramam) and in the Vedas (oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ). The words parastāt kalpa-vāsinām, “transcendental to the planets inhabited after the dissolution,” refer to the Vaikuṇṭha planets. In other words, Dhruva Mahārāja’s promotion to the Vaikuṇṭhalokas was guaranteed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

          (Purport to SB 4.9.20-21)

          In this verse the word nāvartate is very significant. The Lord says, “You will not come back to this material world, for you will reach mat-sthānam, My abode.” Therefore Dhruvaloka, or the polestar, is the abode of Lord Viṣṇu within this material world. Upon it there is an ocean of milk, and within that ocean there is an island known as Śvetadvīpa. It is clearly indicated that this planet is situated above the seven planetary systems of the ṛṣis, and because this planet is Viṣṇuloka, it is worshiped by all other planetary systems. It may be questioned here what will happen to the planet known as Dhruvaloka at the time of the dissolution of this universe. The answer is simple: Dhruvaloka remains, like other Vaikuṇṭhalokas beyond this universe. Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has commented in this connection that the very word nāvartate indicates that this planet is eternal.

          (Purport to SB 4.9.25)

          Dhruvaloka IS Vishnuloka. The demigods headed by Lord Brahma and Lord Siva would enter the shores of this planet to pray to Lord Vishnu. Since they don't have access to Vaikunthaloka (the spiritual sky), they would enter Dhruvaloka, where the predominating deity, Lord Vishnu, along with her consort, Srimati Lakshmi Devi resides. Also, the furthest the demigods reached were the shores. They didn't have the qualification to venture further into Dhruvaloka. I did not say that Jaya and Vijaya were not in Vaikuntha. Dhruvaloka and Vaikuntha may be synonymous in some cases. This is what the Madhva's and the Ramanuja's say, and it makes sense to me. Actually, it does not matter whether this incident took place in Dhruvaloka or Vaikunthaloka (the spiritual sky), my point is that the "fall" of Jaya and Vijaya was a special arrangement of the Lord. It does not serve as an example of jivas falling from the spiritual sky, especially at an infinite rate. If that was the case, then Srimati Radharani, Krsna, Lalita, Vishaka, Balarama, Nanda, Yashoda, etc... also "fell" from the spiritual world. Without Jaya and Vijaya's descending, Rama-Lila, Krsna-Lila and Gaura-Lila would not have been manifest. I think that should conclude our discussion on Jaya-Vijaya.

          Fair enough that one shloka is not sufficient to prove tattva, but it becomes clear when Krsna aswell as the previous Acharyas continuously reassures that after attaining Krsna's divine abode, we don't return to the material world. Srila Prabhupada also writes the same thing in many of his purports. He, somehow, also wrote the complete opposite on many occasions. If you do get the time, please study the treatise. After which, you can come to your own decision, which I fully respect. I will repeat what I have previously posted in this thread, it does not matter how or from where we came from, what matters is that we get out.  



    • in the puranas there are stories of how narada muni & even arjuna became gopis for short time ... i don't have exact reference, google may help you 

  • Hare Krsna,
    The fact is we were never in the spiritual world, so how do we have a relationship with Krsna? We don't. We are jivas - emanating from the tatashta shakti of Mahavishnu, by glancing over the glaring effulgence of Maya, innumerable jivas were thus entrapped into samsara.

    Now that we have attained the rare form of human body, our sole purpose is to develop a relationship with Krsna (as a servant, friend, parent or conjugal lover). How do we do that? It's quite a long topic to go over in one post but the Nectar of Devotion will give you a very nice introduction, therefore please do refer to that book.

    I will try to explain very briefly. The highest form of dharma is to render unalloyed devotional service to Krsna - yato bhaktir adhoksaje. Bhakti Yoga (Devotional Service) is split into three - Sadhana, Bhava and Prema. Sadhana Bhakti is further split into two - Vaidhi and Raganuga. Vaidhi Bhakti is when we perform devotional service under the jurisdiction of Shastra, e.g "I have to do this because the Bhagavatam says it will give me a lot of benefit" or "I have to do this because if I don't it will be sinful". Raga Bhakti on the other hand is when we render devotional service out of natural, spontaneous love, e.g "I am doing this because I want to do this".

    Raganuga Bhakti, although in the stage of Sadhana, is an exalted level. The requirement to practice Raganuga Bhakti is an intense longing or greed to enter into the dealings of Krsna's pastimes. So when we're reading Krsna's pastimes with the Gopis, and we get an irresistible desire to enter into that particular pastime, then do we know that we are ready to practice Raganuga Bhakti with the similar mood of the Gopis. One important point to notice is that we don't become that particular person who we're observing. E.g I am reading about the pastimes of Subala, I also want to serve Krsna in Sakhya Rasa like Subala. This is ok, but we become servant of Subala, not Subala. Raga (loving attraction) Anuga (follower of). So we follow those who love Krsna according to our innate mood. If we feel that I am a servant of Krsna, we study and meditate on Raktaka, Patraka or Citraka. If we feel that I am a friend of Krsna, we study and meditate on Subala, Sridhama, Sudhama, etc... If we feel that I am parent of Krsna, we study and meditate on Nanda, Yashoda or Rohini. If we feel that I am a lover of Krsna, we study and meditate on Lalita, Vishaka, Rupa Manjari or Rati Manjari.

    For those aspiring to enter into Goloka Vrindavana, one MUST attain Prema Bhakti via Raganuga Sadhana Bhakti. This is the verdict of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Goswami. Seva sadhaka rupena siddha rupena catra hi.

    Raganuga Bhakti is an internal practice. Practicioners never advertise their innate mood, they always keep it to themselves.

    People beginning Bhakti, usually never starts with Raganuga Bhakti. Do not prematurely venture into such topics. We should always chant our min 16 rounds, follow 4 reg principles, read Srila Prabhupada's books everyday and go out regularly on sankirtan. Until that greed hasn't arisen, continue to practice Vaidhi bhakti whilst praying and crying to Krsna and Srila Prabhupada for their mercy. Regarding your svarupa, if you follow the procedure properly, your Svarupa gets revealed at the stage of Bhava. Please note this is a very brief description. Please refer to appropriate scriptures for more information.

    • Hare Krishna

      It seems you have not read Srila Prabhupada's books. He uses the words 'back to Godhead' hundreds of times in his books and interviews. This means we were there in the spiritual manifestation before and will go back there.

      There is also a magazine called 'Back to Godhead'. 

      Watch 'Going Back to Godhead'.

      • Hare Krsna, PAMHO,

        Thank you for your reply to my answer. Regarding this topic, it is an ongoing debate. My understanding is this:

        The previous acharyas always made it clear in their scriptures that the jivas did not originate from the spiritual world. The Bhagavad Gita also states that after attaining Krsna's divine abode, one does not ever return to the material world. Denizens of Vaikuntha are completely free from false ego and ignorance, so how does the idea of independence from Krsna come from? 

        As far as Srila Prabhupada is concerned, you're right, many times he does say that we fell from the spiritual world. I guess this is Srila Prabhupada's divine trick to protect his western disciples (who were completely oblivious to what Vedic culture is) from impersonalism, voidism and Sahajiyaism. Acharya's are allowed to alter the philosophy in order to adapt to their current situation, however that doesn't change jiva-tattva.

        We will not reach a conclusion by debating over this topic, hence let's end it here. At the end of the day, it's not important how we got here, it's important that we get out of here. It is my fault that I mentioned it in my reply, hence please accept my apologies.



        • Hare Krishna Suparno prabhu,

          Yes this topic of whether we came from the spiritual manifestation or not is an ongoing debate. By discussing this topic will purify our material existence and please Krishna as we are discussing about Him and thus thinking of Him.

          If devotees do not agree on this or other topics. This is perfectly fine and normal. Different devotees will have different realizations. Nobody is wrong. Just like the perfect couple, Radha and Krishna also have their differences.

          I agree with Srila Prabhupada that we originate from the spiritual manifestation based on the following:


          "That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode." (8.21)

          Yes it states in the Gita that we don't come back once we attain the spiritual abode. This also means if we were there already, then we shouldn't be here now. Based on this logic, some devotees say, we were never in the spiritual manifestation. My realization on this is that if Krishna stated 'he goes to My abode, but can come back'. Then people may not be interested in Krishna, because people want to badly get out of here and never come back, due to suffering and misery. Also Krishna knows that  most people cannot think of life in zillions of years of time. Most cannot think beyond a few thousand years. 

          A father will say things to his children to entice them. This is due to love. For example a father will say to his child, 'come home and I will give you unlimited sweets'. On coming home, the child forgets about sweets due to loving affection with the father.

          2. We are part of Krishna, and He is in the spiritual manifestation. So we must come from there. Just like we leave home for work and then return.

          "The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." (15.7)

          3. The Shrimad-Bhagavatam states this material life is a dream (or like a dream). So where are we dreaming from? The spiritual manifestation.

          4. We are eternal, time is eternal, and the universes are unlimited. if you look at a time period of say 100000000000000000000 zillion years to the power of 10000000000000000 zillion. Within this vast time period, we have been back and forth between the spiritual and material manifestations many times.

          5. Free will. We will always have free will and due to this souls will go back and forth between the spiritual and material manifestations many times.

          Please do watch 'Going Back to Godhead'.


          • Suprano Ji  jay vijay also fell from spiritual world and if you read the story the kumar s call the two as Imposters develop impurity etc etc so denizens of vaikunta can develop impurity similar to material world. So sp is very much right that we have fallen from spiritual world. Now how zillions have fallen really puzzles me!!!

            • Hare Krsna, PAMHO,

              The pastime concerning Jaya and Vijaya involves a lot of deep points that requires study with scrutiny. Krsna's transcendental pastimes are not what meets the eyes. It is clear that the Lord arranged for Jaya and Vijaya to get cursed by Kumara's in order to facilitate His pastimes. Another point to notice is that Jaya and Vijaya were not situated in Vaikuntha (in the spiritual world), rather they were the gatekeeper of Dhruvaloka/Vishnuloka in the material world where Lord Vishnu resides. 

              Also, they did not 'fall down'. They were already 'down', they simply descended to Earth in order to facilitate the pastimes of the Lord. Srila Jiva Goswami explains that although Jaya and Vijaya had the external body of Asuras, internally they remained absorbed in the service of the Lord. 

              It is indeed baffling that how infinite number of souls have fallen.



              • I am sorry you are totally incorrect .plz start reading from sb 3.15.27 infact start from 3.15.1 till sb 3.16.33. You will know the truth

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