Hare Krishna,
PAMHO,
Krishna says in BG 9.30
Even if one commits the most abominable actions, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated.
So my question is if a devotee hurts other devotee or talks ill of people or commits bad acts not under the four regulative principles is he still right? Or is there something I am missing?
I am confused. Please clarify my doubts.
Hare Krishna.
Replies
Hare Krsna
So my question is if a devotee hurts other devotee is he still right?
No, it means the devotee who has commited the hurt is not an advanced devotee and he/she will incur Vaishnava Aparadha. Sin and Aparadha are different. Vaishnava Aparadha is more severe then sin. It will have more severe rections upon the devotee who commits it.
So my question is if a devotee talks ill of people is he still right?
This is too generic. Talk what ill about whom ? Is what us told true or false ? It may not correct to think that one should always be speaking sweetly even if it is not true. The whole advertisement industry works on this principle - show/say nice things but which untrue and people will believe it. Lord Sri Krsna says
anudvega-karaṁ vākyaṁ
satyaṁ priya-hitaṁ ca yat
svādhyāyābhyasanaṁ caiva
vāṅ-mayaṁ tapa ucyate
Austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, beneficial, and not agitating to others, and also in regularly reciting Vedic literature. ( BG 17.15)
It is not a good idea to speak words that agitate the mind of others, but sometimes harsh truth needs to be spoken. That said blasphemy or insulting words out of anger, envy or hatred will cause a person's downfall whether the perosn is a devotee or not.
if a devotee acts not under the four regulative principles is he still right?
If you mean acts against the four regulative principles of bhakti, then the deovtee will get reaction from Krsna or material energy, but as devotees we should not encourage it or blaspheme it. We could stay away from such deovtee but still be respectful. Krsna will reform the devotee eventually, because he/she is a deovtee of Krsna.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krishna,
It is utter foolishness to think that we are the doers. It is out of false ego one believes that he or she is doing things. But actually he doer is Only Sri Krishna. Because we all are all part and parcel of Sri Krishna. No one is a unrelated to Lord.
do you think Duryodhana simply disrobbed Draupadi? Do you think Karna simply abused and insulted Draupadi?
There was previous instigating factor which lead to such a disastrous scene. Draupadi insulted Duryodhana long time back in Maya sabha saying blind man's son is also a blind and laughed at Duryodhana. It is seriously insulting isn't it..
Draupadi also insulted Karna saying a suta putra ( low class ) cannot seek the hand of a Rajakumari even if he is highly qualified. Was that not a insult?
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. But draupadi only insulted them and laughed at them but she had to severely pay for those insults. But Draupadi being completely surrendered to Krishna even if she was at fault got complete protection of Lord isn't it?
If you go more deep Draupadi in her past life was a gandharva itseems and she stole off some apsaras clothes when they were bathing in a pond. And even after pleading didn't return the clothes. Today she had to face the same situation where in she was disrobed. .. All we know is just this part of life this momment. Stroy is more and it is only known to Lord. But again As draupadi is totally surrendered now in very helpless situation seeked complete surrender to Lord she was given full support.
So why to blame anyone here?
Duryodhana and Yudhishtira both were cousins of Lord. To become relatives of Lord itself is a great status... We also are all related to Lord btw..!!!! and Lord is having Samadrishti towards all. Those who seek His help with complete surrender Lord will help them even if they did many bad karmas..
Example is Valmiki isn't it??
Valmiki in the past was a mrigari an vanjari/ tribal and killing those who pass the jungle and robbing them of their wealth and killing animals was his daily routine. But once he came in contact with Narad Muni and tried to rob him .. Narada only said I have nothing except the name of Lord which I can give you. Mrigari said whats the use of it? You give up all these bad activites at once and chant the holy name you will know what is the use of it Narad muni said. If I stop these activities how will I feed my family? said the mrigari.. Oh. Narad said.. do one thing.. You daily take these sins and feeds ur family right?? ( the sins by killing animals and humans) do one thing go and ask ur family if they are ready to share the sins accumulated by you in doing these activities. The Mrigari went to ask his family and they said NO we cannot take ur sins. they are urs and ur own sins. Mrigari's eyes opened and came fell at Sri Narada and seeked humbly to give him diksha to Harinama. Narad Muni gave him Lord Rama's name .. to chant but the tribal couldnt even repeat the name of Lord rama and was saying " Mara Mara Mara MaraMramaramaramaramaramramaramaraamaramaramaramramaramaram" You see. Once he started to chant he lost totally into that " Mara and it became Rama finally and He became saint Valmiki in due course of time.. Valmiki means the one whose body was covered by ant hill. While chanting he totally lost his senses and ants even formed a hill over his body he didn't even notice it.
Even after doing Abominable actions all his actions became nullified as he chose the right path and became to chant .. slowly he came perfected. It takes time few years or few life times. But someday they will realize their sins and become humble and seek forgiveness, sincerely repent and go back to Godhead in full surrender.
Its just a matter of time. Lord is watching everyone closely. He knows everything .. We need not rake our heads. Karma, Kartha, Kriya-- result of action,doer and action everything is Lord.
One is just out of false ego feels he is the doer thats all. Doer is only Krishna and Why He does .. is to rectify people to make them striaght, Why He does to give justice to people.
We may not know the larger plan of Lord but we just keep blaming someone of something simply .. because we like to blame all the time. Silence you mind and see.. All is being done by Lord. You are nothing.
When Barbarik was asked in the end of Mahabharata Yudh when Padavas won and Arjuna was feeling Proud that Padavas have won it and he was responsible for this. Krishna took him to Barbarik. Barbarik was asked by Sri Krishna who really won the battle? Barbarik replied I didn't see anyone except Keshav and His Sudarshan Chakra.. He was fighting from both the sides.. It is the biggest truth one must know.
False ego bewilders a person to think He is the doer simply. Arjuna's pride was shattered.
So why to even blame someone. Every one will suffer the deeds of the karma in some way. The person did is only visible but actually there is something more to the story which Lord only knows. So, my opinion is never label anyone bad or good. Only Krishna can pass such judgements upon anyone. For Krishna only knows past., present and future of all souls. We should never criticize others or label them bad or good. Basic Vaishnava Ettiquete is we humble surrender to Lord and say> LOrd will take care of everything. I am nothing Who am I to blame anyone.. I myself has 10000 mistakes in me. So, Lord will do the needful. This is basic Vaishnava ettiqute those who are in complete surrender to Lord.
Really also to such surrendered souls Lord really helps No DOUBT About it!!!!
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna.
Mataji PAMHO,
In Bhagavad Gita (18.14),
The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul – these are the five factors of action.
Purport
The word adhiṣṭhānam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring about the results of activity and is therefore known as kartā, “the doer.” That the soul is the knower and the doer is stated in the śruti. Eṣa hi draṣṭā sraṣṭā (Praśna Upaniṣad 4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra by the verses jño ’ta eva (2.3.18) and kartā śāstrārthavattvāt (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But all one’s activities depend on the will of the Supersoul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the supercause. Under these circumstances, he who is acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the direction of the Supersoul situated within the heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness are not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will, the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Srila Prabhupada writes that soul is the knower and doer. Only for devotee everything is dependent on the Lord and is the will of the lord. I am confused as you have told that God is the Karma, Kartha and Kriya.
Please explain.
Hare Krishna
I remember hearing it explained in a lecture (I forget the sannyasi's name); the example used was a hand. I have a hand. It is MY hand, right? But is it? I can use this hand, but if Krishna cripples me, I can no longer use it. I am not really the ultimate controller of my hand - I have temporary use of this hand, while I am in this body.
But with that temporary control of my hand I can make choices what I do. If I stick my hand in a fire, through choice or negligent action, I and my hand, will suffer the consequences. I have the free will to choose what I do with my hand, and will face consequences, good or bad, accordingly.
So, at a lower level I am the doer and controller of my hand, but Krishna is the ultimate doer and controller.
Hare Krishna
Yes prabhuji, that is a very good analogy.
Ultimately we are in control of Krishna but due to our assumed affinity with prakriti and false ego we think we are the doers. Krishna also has given us free will but ultimately it is the will of Krishna only.
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna Prabhu ji,
Soul is part and parcel of Supersoul. Soul has no seperate identity of its own. Soul is powered by Supersoul.
read in the purport.
"But all one’s activities depend on the will of the Supersoul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the supercause. "
Because of false ego the body thinks it is only the doer. which is totally wrong. as the body is seeing itself seperate from SUpersoul
Clear?
Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna ,
But mataji in the Bhagavad Gita Krishna tells Arjuna
Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do. (18.63)
If we as souls depend on the supreme fully and not the doer, why are we held responsible for our actions and why Krishna tells Arjuna to do as he desires?
Suppose you saw a sweet and you are craving for it to eat it.
1. first your eyes see the sweet.
2. eyes tell mind wow there is sweet
4.mind sends signals into the mouth to water salivate and cause you to crave for it.
5. then intellect tells mind.. no no there is prasadam after aarti don't eat now.
6. Mind and senses don't listen to the intellect take decision to eat the sweet. and mind sends signals to the hand to eat it..
But Body as it is tell me it is made of material things ( air water, fire earth. does it has any power to of its own to do any activity?)
who is powering the nervous system to do action?
is it brain? and the nervous system/
what is the difference between a dead body and a living body?
it is chetana shakti isn't it?
where is this chetana shakti coming from?
FOOD that u eat is giving energy to do work?
or the soul ??
Soul right?
Soul is powering the body to do work.
Who is powering the soul?
soul is powered by Supersoul to do action.
Now its upto ur mind if your mind wants to do bad activities than also.. it is powered by supersoul and soul to do it
When you want to do good activities than also supersoul is powering ur soul to perform activity.
Mind is the seat of all action.
Your mind and its decisions will impact the doing.
False ego makes you think that you are doing the activity but actually you are just made of material things what u think is you or your body.
Body is dead matter without the soul
when person dies soul leaves body is lifeless.
hare krishna.
Hare Krishna.
Now I have understood mataji.
Thank you very much
Hare Krishna.