Hare Krsna
Please accept my humble obeisance. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
There was a person in a village who had acquired occult powers through intense penance. He was a close friend of a merchant in the village. Whenever the merchant had any problems or troubles in his business or personal life, he would approach this person and have his issues instantly resolved by virtue of the divine powers acquired through penance.
After all, the merchant was human too. One day, he picked up a quarrel with this divine person over some issue and it became a big fight. Now the merchant was in depression. He lost his self-confidence and fell sick. This was because he was terribly afraid that the same friend of his, who had done a lot of good to him during his heydays, could now deploy his occult powers to harm the merchant, now that he is his deadly enemy. This very thought troubled the merchant and he became fit for nothing owing to depression.
One goes to the temple and prays to the Lord. Imagine that the Lord destroys all his bad Karma. Fickle-minded human that he is, tomorrow he may turn against God and start abusing Him or denying His very existence. Then he would think, Oh! God! when I was close to God, He absolved all my bad karmas. Now that I am no more grateful to Him, will He destroy my good Karmas too? This very thought will make his life a miserable one.
Hence, unless one is a great Bhakta or surrenders to God through a Uttama Guru, the Lord does not interfere with his karmas.
Replies
THE LAWS OF KARMA. PART 1.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
THE LAWS OF KARMA. PART 2.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
THE LAWS OF KARMA. PART 3.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
THE LAWS OF KARMA. PART 4.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. CAN ONE CHANGE THE RESULTS OF ONE`S KARMA ?
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
First of all, a devotee is not concern of his Karma and karmic reactions because these things only keep us bound in this material world. All a devotee always wants is akarma meaning no karma. This is possible by doing our duty and offering the results to Krishna.
Further more on to your example of a devotee after loosing his karmic reactions turn against god, this is not something hypothetical situation. This was, is and will be happening in this material world. There are many examples that we can see even today how people are trying to earn their living by declaring themselves to be God. This is a sign of envy.
Philosophically it is true that when one accepts a bonafide spiritual master, he looses all his previous karmic reactions and will be free from any previous karma. But we must know that the disciple takes a vow in front of Lord, Vishnavas and Fire that he will follow the instructions of Guru faithfully and will not sin any more. If the disciple wants to commit more sin latter because his Guru is ready to take it then Krishna understands such a person and will reject him. This is what Christians do. The do all nonsense whole week and on Sunday they go to church and confess to Jesus that they are sorry about what they did and get themselves free from their sin. And then from Monday, they are back to their duty of committing more and more sin for asking forgiveness next week. this is cheating religion.
More over, Krishna is our loving father. A child out of ignorance may talk all nonsense about his own parents. But parents will not take it to their heart and are always forgiving. Though sometimes, parents may want to teach lesson to their spoiled child and take away some facilities like pocket money, etc... But its out of his love for his son. When the son becomes submissive, the father will give back all he had taken back. Similarly, we have to develop the faith in Krishna to such an extent that anything that happens, is only for our own betterment and to make us come closer to Krishna.
hari bol!!!
harE krishnA !! my humble pranAms to the bhagavAn and bhAgavathAs
Sudheedra prabhuji, you are right when you say that people didn't follow the last words of Guruji SP and that's why they are fighting with cases against each other. Unless the court gives justice, who can say who is right - GBC or ISKCON Bangalore. Ritvik system is a solution offered when an ideal guru is not available. Even Mahaprabhu Chaitanya, when he didn't get a vaishnava-guru for taking sanyaasa, got initiation from an Advaita-guru (who is termed as Mayavadic by ISKCON) in order to maintain the parampara-system and later ensured he initiated and continued a vaishnava-guru parampara. So to have a sadguru is better than not having a guru at all. Since not all believe that GBC is a 'pure-enough' organizational structure, having seen some of its bitter past and havoc it spread in the name of Krishna-Consciousness, they see Ritvik with Prabhupadji as Guru and start service in Krishna-Consciousness.
In your example of school as an analogy to GBC, its not the students but the teachers who were at fault here, so that students had to look for other school with good teachers. So which system was at fault, we may not know.
Just as you explained that blaming a system is not right for the fault of one or two people, similarly it is not right to blame the Christian Confession system when some people misuse it. A true christian would use that process to clear his guilt and rededicate himself to transcendental service to Jesus and Holy Father just like we believe that chanting maha-mantra will eradicate our sins and increase our love for Krishna.
||shri krishnA sharanam mama||
Suresh Pr,
I was hearing sanyaas leela of Mahaprabhu by HG Krishnaananda Pr and he explained that When he was about to be initiated as Sanyasi, Mahaprabhu said that he has a mantra and a name that he would like to have and whispered in the ears. And latter got the same mantra and name from the mayadi sanyasi. So Mahaprabhu first initiated the mayadi sanyasi in vishnava sampradya and then took initiation from him.
regarding christian confession system im not blaming it or somthing. All I am trying to say is how people are eager to commit more sin only because they can go infront of Jesus and ask for forgivness and remove all the sinful reactions. This attitude is not good is what i said.
harE krishnA, thanks for your clarification Sudheendra prabhuji
||shri krishnA sharanam mama||
Hare Krishna
Thank you Bhaktin Mataji and sudheendra prabhuji for your clear explanation.
However I didn't get an answer to if it's only Rajajinagar,Bangalore ISKCON that follows this perfected reflection of ritvik system or there are other temples around the world?
Bhaktin Mataji, your point regarding false ego on not worshiping a live guru is well taken. thank you!
jai shree gokulesh
Alka Mataji there are many temples started by Madhupandit Pr around the world where they have this ritvik system still being practiced. The ones that I know are in Mysore, Mangalore, etc and there is one in Vrindavan also now. You can see in all such temples they collect donations for Akshyapatra which is nothing but siphoning of Krishna's wealth to MPD's personal account.
Hare Krishna
Please go through this.Nice one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLfK3z8dUlI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uAZfYsKMUg
Hare Krishna
Nice discussion. Helps to understand both the system.
Can you please advise Sudheendra prabhuji why Bangalore ISKCON follows..
"perverted reflection of actual ritvik system.
I couldn't understand this statement. It's important for me to understand this, since I visit this temple mostly.
What's the difference between an actual Ritvik system and perverted ritvik.
Is it only Bangalore ISKCON that follows Ritvik system or there are other temples around the world?
What Suresh prabhuji is saying here makes more sense to me.
Why is guru so important to just love GOD?
Did Meera bai had any guru? Was she even initiated formally? What about Tukaramji? (I don't know the answers, please advise)
jai shree Gokulesh
Alka mataji
i called it a perverted reflection because they are not following the ritwik system mentioned in the scriptures according to which ritvik initiation can be given by a disciple of a spiritual master only when the spiritual master is physically present on the planet and has instructed his disciple(s) to accept other aspiring disciples as his own disciples. SP approved this when he was present on this planet and after he has left, his disciples will have to be initiating gurus.
Regarding your other question about why we need a guru, Krishna himself tells this in BG tadviddi pranipathana pari prashnena sevaya... when one serves his spiritual master and makes submissive inquiry from him, the guru will show the truth as he has seen and realized. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and he proved it in many ways and times. He is not bound by any laws or rules. But still as a matter of following the social etiquette and also to follow the scriptures, he accepted a guru.
Latter when he appeared as Lord Sri Chaitnya Mahaprabhu, he again accepted initiation from Isvara Puri just to show that it is only by the grace of Guru one can attain Krishna. It is not possible by our own strength to reach Krishna.
I am not sure about Meera bai but Tukaram maharaj was initiated by Mahaprabhu sri chaitnya himself when he was on south India yatra. This has been quoted by SP in the introduction of SB.
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