Hare Krishna, please accept my humble obeisances.
I have some questions which have been the cause of my doubt over the years as an aspiring Krishna devotee.
Why are we here in the material world? Was there a time before we were in the material world and was in union with God?
How did we ever fell down? Or were we here for all eternity without an initial karmic cause? If that is so what launch us to be here in the first place? It is said that the kingdom of God is infallible and if we were there and fell down doesn't that contradict its characterization? It is confusing and sometimes makes everything seem so meaningless.
Why the trouble to put us through where we are and all the ordeals if the goal is to reach the Godhead because the place we are in now is at odds against Godhead.
I am not trying to nail in any doubt in the minds of practicing devotees here. Some of you may even have an answer to my question for you ought to know much more than me who is new to Krishna Consciousness. I thought I have to clear my doubt if I want to continue unhindered, with my mind fixated on the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna. But having a questioning mind is helpful since it becomes the means to unflinching conviction.
Thank you and Hare Krishna.
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HK: PAMHO:
This material world is also a part of Spiritual World.
We being Nitya Baddhas, we have been part and parcels of Him who came into existence in this material part of the spiritual world when this creation was done as part of 8.4 million species.
There are Nitya Siddhas like Narad Muni and other elevated devotees, who travel without any obstruction in both material and spiritual worlds trying to help the nitya baddhas about Supreme Consciousness.
Somehow, when we are reminded about Krsna, the nitya baddhas become self realized and live a theist lifestyle by surrendering onto Him.
Atheists on the other hand, transcend from one body to another and remain here eternally. When everything is annihilated, they go into Maha Tattva and come to life again, go back, come again, go back, come again.... this happens continuously.
"Or were we here for all eternity without an initial karmic cause?"
This sentence is perfect understanding, we have been here from the time of initial creation of this part of Material world.
This is the reason Goswamis and Prabhupad always said it's enough of Material life, take up to Spiritual life and live blissfully ever after.
If everything emanated from Krsna, then obviously we were with Krsna. Beyond Krsna, It's Krsna only, nothing else to have a doubt.
Chant Hare Krsna and be happy....
Hare Krishna Devotees
With regards to GOPAKUMARA story(journey to material world) Rakesh Prabhuji can you please provide an appropriate link or mention where in Bhagvatam is it mentioned.
WHEREVER THERE IS LOVE FOR GOD , THAT IS SPIRITUAL WORLD.
A DEVOTEE SHOULD NOT FEAR TO RETURN BACK TO MATERIAL WORLD.ONLY THING A DEVOTEE FEARS IS WHAT IF HE FORGETS KRISHNA WHEREVER HE IS.
A DEVOTEE IS NOT EVEN CRAZY ABOUT GOING TO GOLOKA. FOR HIM, WHEREVER THERE IS KRISHNA AND HIS DEVOTEES, THAT IS GOLOKA.
Let me narrate one story I heard long back. Don't ask me the source/book where it comes from.I don't know.
But here's the story.
Once Narada muni went to Lord Visnu and asked him , "is there anyone more devoted to you than me?"
Lord said if that question is to be answered, you must come to earth with me. Disguised as farmers,Lord Vishnu and Narada came to earth at dusk and walked towards a hut. And Lord said over there in that hut lives one of my greatest devotee!
Narada thinks "whose devotion is deeper that mine ?" And he asks Lord Vishnu, does he think of you all the time as I do?
Lord says "wait and see yourself".
Lord Vishnu and Narada both approach towards that poor farmer who was feeding grass to the cows while chanting "Narayan,Narayan"
Lord Vishnu and Narada ask that poor farmer to provide shelter for one night as it was too dark to proceed further in the jungle.The poor farmer welcomes them and asks them to take dinner whatever was prepared for them, they offer it to Lord Vishnu and Naradaji and the family sleeps empty stomach.
Lord Vishnu says "see Narada , the farmer and his family has eaten nothing still he sings my glory."
Narada says " I have remained without food for days and still remembered you"
The next morning the poor farmer bows down and pays obeisances to Lord Vishnu and Narada and ask them permission to let him go to work in the fields. Lord Vishnu and Narada accompanied the farmer to his field.
Narada muni says to the poor farmer" What a pious man you are! you are a great devotee of the Lord, you keep repeating his name"
The poor farmer says" I remember Lord's glorious name as often as my work permits"
Narad muni says "How often would that be"?
The poor farmer says "I think of Hari as I get up in the morning, before I go to bed, and as many times in between as my work permits" After this farmer goes to his field to work,
Narada muni starts thinking deeply as to why Lord calls him one of his greatest devotee?
Lord Vishnu interrupts his thinking and asks Narada to carry the vessel filled to the brim with oil up to the hill and asks him to come back without spilling a drop of the oil.
Narada says as you order Lord and sets off walking towards hill.
He starts thinking "I must be cautious lest the oil should spill","Ah I almost slipped, I must be more careful"
When Narada successfully completed the walk around the hill with that oil vessel in his head and came towards Lord Vishnu, Lord said "Tell me how many times did you remember me during the walk?"
Narada says "Not even once ".
Narada bows down on Lord's lotus feet and says "THOSE WHO REMEMBER YOU AMIDST WORLDLY CARES ARE WITHOUT DOUBT YOUR GREATEST DEVOTEES"
jai shree Gokulesh
Hare Krishna Mataji, my humble obeisances,
That is truly beautiful. I feel that way too. "THOSE WHO REMEMBER YOU AMIDST WORLDLY CARES ARE WITHOUT DOUBT YOUR GREATEST DEVOTEES" These words will be etched in my mind for a long time to come. Thank you so much and Hare Krishna.
Your servant,
Ernesto Chongtham
This Holy book is here Mataji: http://ebooks.iskcondesiretree.info/pdf/Gaudiya_Books%20/Sanatana_G...
Written by Sanatana Goswami: http://ebooks.iskcondesiretree.info/index.php?q=f&f=/pdf/Gaudiy...
Your servant,
Hare Krsna Ernesto P
most humble obeisances
With all respects to everyone.. I hereby give VEDIC REFERENCE TO THE FACT THAT WE WERE IN SPIRITUAL WORLD performing pastimes with KRSNA and RADHARANI.. Salvadores p is saying that it is not true though HE HIMSELF DOES NOT have any proof from VEDAS for what HE IS saying.. IN BRIHAD BHAGAVATAM there is a pastime of GOPAKUMARA, a gopa RETURNING FROM MATERIAL WORLD BACK TO SPIRITUAL WORLD AND AFTER THAT KRSNA EXPLAINING HIM HOW HE LEFT SPIRITUAL WORLD(GOLOKA) FOR THIS MATERIAL WORLD AND HIS ENTIRE JOURNEY in this material WORLD. Also , i am sure SENIOR BRAHMACARIS WHO HAVE SPENT 20-25 YEARS IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS AND ARE TEMPLE PRESIDENTS AND ARE UNDER DIRECT GUIDANCE OF SANNYASIS WILL NOT TELL FALSE INFORMATION.. I WILL GIVE YOU THE REFERENCE OF THE VERSE WHICH CONTAINS THE PASTIME IN DETAIL.
ALL THE EXAMPLES THAT ARE QUOTED BY SALVADORES P, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY VEDIC BASIS THEMSELVES AND HENCE WE CANNOT ACCEPT THEM AS WELL. BUT WHAT I HAVE HEARD AND AM SAYING IS FROM SCRIPTURES..
PLEASE SEE, HOW CAN A LIVING BEING B CREATED, If it is created it has to end also... Also no where in VEDAS IT IS WRITTEN WHAT SALVADORES P is saying...INFACT, MANY OF HIS INFORMATIONS ARE IN CONTRADICTION WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN IN VEDAS and what I HAVE HEARD IN THE LECTURES OF VERY SENIOR BRAHMACARIS ...
I HUMBLY BEG FORGIVENESS, IF MY COMMENTS HURT ANYONE...PLEASE DO NOT TAKE ANY OFFENSES..PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I SAID ANYTHING THAT HURT..
YS
Humble obeisances Rakesh Roshan Prabhu,
please cool down little bit! In the above statement Salvadores Prabhu is telling that it is written in Jaiva Dharma of Bhaktivinod Thakur.
And i also heard with my ears that HH Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami Maharaja read Jaiva Dharma and told clearly that mostly souls fall from brahmajyoti not from Spiritual world.
Gopa Kumar is a pure Devotee, his case is different. He is eternal associate of Krishna. And he might come to this world to glorify his Lord....
Again when Vasudeva Datta requested Lord Chaitania to liberate all living entities in this universe THAT TIME ONLY LORD LIBERATED ALL RESIDENTS OF THIS UNIVERSE AND BROUGHT THEM BACK TO GODHEAD AND FILLED UP AGAIN THIS UNIVERSE WITH SOULS FROM BRAHMAJYOTI.
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It is a illlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll subject.
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Concerning spiritual body. When sadhaka does his sadhana and cultivates particular desires his svarupa will be accordingly. In spiritual world Krishna Himself becomes their bodies. Spiritual bodies. It is not that we are very tiny souls become big in spiritual world. No. Krishna knowing our desires to serve to Him in a particular body He Himself becomes our spiritual body.
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Your servant,
Hare Krishna Mataji, My humble obeisance,
"Again when Vasudeva Datta requested Lord Chaitania to liberate all living entities in this universe THAT TIME ONLY LORD LIBERATED ALL RESIDENTS OF THIS UNIVERSE AND BROUGHT THEM BACK TO GODHEAD AND FILLED UP AGAIN THIS UNIVERSE WITH SOULS FROM BRAHMAJYOTI. " Why would the Lord do that? Is there anything wrong with making the material world devoid of souls? The Lord desire the living entities to return back to Him right? I don't know. Please enlighten me in this regard. Should there be a balance of some kind that should exist between the spiritual world and the material world?
Your Servant,
EC
my humble obeisances Ernesto Prabhuji,
In the reality even material world is eternal. It seems as like temporary because it is manifested for some time and non manifested for other time.
Because of that this cycle does not have end. Krishna is unlimited. The quantity of souls also unlimited. This truth is in conceivable to our human brains.
Material world is created for conditional souls. In order to fulfill their material desires which based on false ego "I" and "mine".
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In the reality for a pure soul there is no difference between material and spiritual worlds. Because within our heart there is already Vrindavan dhama where Krishna along with His eternal associates reside.
By being in this world we can be in spiritual it depends on our consciousness.
Then when proper time comes Krishna may come and take us to His abode.
I also heard that when soul goes back to home it will seem like he was in a dream and saw such like horrible dream and never ever wants to have such like dream again.
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About falling down: in spiritual world there is no false ego and no material energy. Everything is controlled by internal energy - Yoga maya. Because of that it is little bit not correct that the soul become envious to Krishna there. But where as in brahmajyoti one lives because of envy to Him. Because he wants to become god.
It is the difference.
In our natural state we - souls full of knowledge, bliss and eternity. We do not have any material qualities. Qualitatively we are same with Krishna but quantitatively different from Him.
We are very tiny will remain tiny even in spiritual world. But Krishna only fulfills our desires by giving us whatever we want there. Big body, many bodies....
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This material world is like a jail. Jail is created not with bad intentions. But with only good intentions. In order to protect other citizens and to stop from foolishness some of them.
Your servant,
My humble obeisances Mataji,
"But where as in brahmajyoti one lives because of envy to Him. Because he wants to become god." If fallen souls like me were initially one of these envious souls in Brahmajyoti who fell down here, it's a very sad thing. :( Could go crazy with remorse. I wish I was someone fortunate. :(
Thank you anyway. I will try my best to be Krishna conscious as much as possible with the Grace of Guru and Krishna.
Your servant,
EC
it is not only Your situation Prabhuji, :( all we who are in this prison of material body are envious of Krishna.
Maybe at this time we might not know about it but when chant the Holy Names, They remove dirt from our heart and we will start to see other dirts which will bring much much pain.
Our position is insignificant. And for all those life times we performed many many sinful things. At this stage Krishna puts us in some forgetfulness other wise if we know who we are in the reality we won't be able to survive.
That reality of our insignificance will destroy us. Because of that Krishna shows those dirts little by little.
And it says that ENVY is the most dirtiest one and it leaves only in a very high stages of love to Krishna. Even in bhava stage there might be some envy but it goes away only in the stage of prema.
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To be only sad is material consciousness but being sad to have hope is the spiritual Krishna Consciousness.
Hope that: "even though i am insignificant, dirty, useless entity ...You can save me my Lord!" "It so happened please forgive me my dear Krishna, please forgive me and please help me!"........ :(
Your servant,
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