Hare Krishna Prabhujis and Matajis.
I am from Surat, Gujarat. My father and I have been member of ISKCON Surat since 15 years and my father was very dedicated towards ISKCON Surat and has been chanting rounds of Hare Krishna Mahamantra since last 15 years and also regularly attending ISKCON Sunday Feast and so am I. But recently, my father was provided a copy of Satyarth Prakash by Dayanand Saraswati. He is very much influenced by the book and is now confused whether the Supreme Lord is personal or impersonal. As per Satyarth Prakash, the Supreme Lord is impersonal and Krishna and Rama were very intelligent human-beings. My father is very much convinced by this and is very confused whether to believe ISKCON ideology or this Arya Samaj.
I am very much convinced that the Krishna is the supreme Lord and no one is above or equal to him. I have thoroughly read Bhagwad Gita-as it is, Krsna, Nector of Devotion and now reading Srimad Bhagvatam (reached Second Canto). I have no doubt about the supremacy of Krishna. Yesterday, I and my father had a very healthy discussion, you can call it debat, on personal feature of impersonal feature of Supreme Lord. I want to further state that my father is well-versed with the ideology of ISKCON as he has been actively involved with the ISKCON, Surat since last 15 years and now he is so much convinced by the Arya Samaj Theory. Father is still chanting his rounds but he tell me that he is not feeling any change by chanting hare krishna mahamantra. However, earlier, say 6-7 years ago, he used to say that he has experienced very positive change after he started chanting hare krishna mahamantra.
My father told me that he is not aginst ISKCON ideology but actually confused about what is real and what is not. So he says that he will do futher research in this matter. I am so much in pain after seeing my father talk like this after having associated with ISKCON for 15 years. Change in my father's thinking has not affected by faith in ISKCON and my faith that Krishna is everything and everything is Krishna.
I even tried to explain him that Lord Krishna himself has said in Bhagwad Gita that he is the Surpeme Lord and not a blade of grass moves without his wish. I even cited slokas from Brahma Samhita where Brahma ji cited that Govinda is the cause of all causes. But he says that as per Satyarth Prakash, the shastras have been manipulated by the brahmanas and they are not 100% dependable. He says that as per Vedas, God is impersonal and nowhere is it written that God has a shape. That Krishna and Rama were great human personalities and the Shastra have been manipulated.
I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance. Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking. Please Help.
Hare Krishna
Replies
Hare Krishna Prabhu ji
looks like you only believe what neem karoli baba said so there's no point in saying anything else.
i just wanted to suggest that you quit this forum considering our answers or advices won't help you because gaudiya vaishnavas believe krishna is everywhere, (ito narsimha parato narsimha, yato yato yami tato narsimha) and we also believe chaitanya mahaprabhu was krishna in the mood of radha rani (by believe I don't mean personal whim, it's 100000000xinfinite% true) but you don't seem to believe that since neem karoli baba didn't say so. our advices aren't helping you so what's the point staying here and trying to divert us from our path when we're so happily situated right?
Hare Krishna
(p.s I know I said I won't comment any further but this felt important)
Hare Krishna Ma'm,
"looks like you only believe what neem karoli baba said so there's no point in saying anything else."
I believe in logic too :)
Neem Karoli Baba said "Everywhere I look I see only Ram and that is why I’m always honoring everything.".
When Neem Karoli Baba gave one American devotee the name of Chaitanya Maha Prabhu, he told him that his name meant 'consciousness of God within the heart.'.
I was glorifying "repetition of God's name" to the OP / OP's father. I don't see it as diverting them from ISKCON's path. I was under the impression that ISKCON also teaches chanting of Hare Krishna mantra.
Hare Krsna
Saying everything is illusion is mayavada philosophy. No matter which baba says it is, it is not acceptable.
Hare Krsba
Hare Krsna
So Bhagavad Gita has been manipulated but much older Vedas have not? I myself don't trust the scriptures very much
If you do not have any faith on the most important scripture of Sanatana Dharma which has been accepted by great sages, devotees etc , then you have no place in these forums. Please quit.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krishna kralaro prabhu ji,
May I know what does it mean when you said--" "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion. What can you do about it ?"
I know one thing for sure is our eyes are made up of matter, body and mind are made up of matter so they percieve wrongly!!!!!
Material things cannot perceive spiritual things . It is right.
But The statement is wrong that everything is illusion , temple is illusion, scriptures are illusion.
If you can explain a bit more what do you mean by this " everything is illusion" explain. Becoz as far as we all Krishna conscious devotees know is.
Everything which we see is not illusion if we include Krishna in it. Away from Krishna yes it is illusion.
Our perception of things is wrong when we don't have Krishna in our thoughts and actions.
Like for example;.-- A rope is percieved as a snake when there is no light. But the same eyes see it as rope when there is light.
Here In this Example you can understand that the eyes are the same. the observer is also same. what changed in this experiement is the light.
Light is Krishna ...when there is light there is no maya( darkeness) then we see things perfectly and correctly as it is.
It is NOT TRUE TO SAY EVERYTHING IS ILLUSION.
Hare Krishna Ma'm,
"kralaro prabhu ji" sounds funny to me.
The statement "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion." is by my guru but i can guess what it means. Whatever is seen by human eye is an illusion. Like inside of human body actually doesn't exist: one does't have any liver, lungs etc., unless the body is opened up, then the illusion of liver and lungs would be created and one would see them. I'm sitting under a fan but the fan doesn't exist, but if i look up then illusion of fan would be created and i would see it. If then i look down then there would be no more need of illusion of fan and then the illusion of fan would go away. This happens because there may be no need for God to sustain the existence of liver and fan when no one is looking at them. It's like movie "The Matrix" where people's brains are connected to computers which immerse them in virtual worlds. This world is virtual.
Hare Krsna
This world is virtual.
Please quit Iskcon Desiretree since you imageine it to be virtual. Your nonsensical ideas have no place here.
Hare Krsna
Not really and exactly that what you said. Temple is existing, you and me are all exisiting. If we are illusion then why wear clothes. clothes also illusion.
If everything is illusion as per this mayavaadi philosophy that means whatever we are doing is also illusion. that means simply that there is no karma applicable also.
If I kill a man and say hey you are an illusion i never killed anything. Is it okay?
Nothing is illusion. Every action you do is recorded. But the way we percieve things is changed when we are not krishna conscious.
If I am not krishna conscious. I can even kill a cow and say..hey i never killed that cow is an illusion, and if we are KC then we know that harming a being is a big sin.
If fan is a illusion then put hand in a fan and say hey why did you cut my finger. you are an illusion right. No it is not like this.
everything is not illusion our perception is illusionised when we are not aware of the truth.
Once you come to know the truth. the illusion is gone.
Let us say example-->
In the above figures you can see different image at the start. But once you train your eyes to look beyond what is generally visible to the first sight then you will find a different image.
that is how the world is. It appears to be maya only when youa re out of Krishna. If you apply Krishna and include krishna into life. The same material worldly things become spiritualized.
Like one sanyasi ( mayavadi) sees a flower and says it is a just a flower an illusion. for him it appears useless and he sees negative side of things. Like flower stays only for a while and then it dries up. But a Krishna conscious person says what a beautiful flower it can be used in service of Lord. Seeing things positively is KC.
every material thing can be utilized to Krishna's service if we use it for Krishna.
Maayavaadi's says that is material its is illusion. But if thats the case. I can even kill you and claim I never killed anyone. It all illusion.
nothing is illusion. I will be put in jail for that act.
Hare Krishna.
"If we are illusion then why wear clothes. clothes also illusion."
I may get locked in a psychiatric centre and force feeded harmful drugs if i stop wearing clothes.
"If I kill a man and say hey you are an illusion i never killed anything. Is it okay?"
Suppose you kill a character in a video game and the game is designed to punish you for that then you'll be punished inside the video game. Illusory punishment for illusory killing. If you kill a man in our world then govt may lock you up in jail but that jail will itself be an illusion. Whether killing is okay depends on the reason behind killing.
"If fan is a illusion then put hand in a fan and say hey why did you cut my finger. you are an illusion right."
One illusion can affect another illusion. The bullets in a video game can harm the character in the video game. Fan and finger both are illusion.
"
Like one sanyasi ( mayavadi) sees a flower and says it is a just a flower an illusion. for him it appears useless and he sees negative side of things. Like flower stays only for a while and then it dries up. But a Krishna conscious person says what a beautiful flower it can be used in service of Lord. Seeing things positively is KC.
"
Someone can think "this flower is real but it will dry up after a while", while another person can think "this flower is illusion but it can be gifted to Lord". Seeing things positively/negatively is separate from considering things illusion/real. I've played an online game where people from all over the world used to participate in a single virtual wordld, and the players used to sometimes gift each other items in game, while knowing that those items are illusion. By the way, i hope you know gifting a beautiful flower, withered flower or a stone to Lord is same to Lord, it doesn't matter to him, what matters to him is the love behind the gifting.
Illusion is only for Mayavaadi's ..Not for KC devotees.
if you want to see Krishna you can see in everything. Be it a stone, or flower, you or me. or even this laptop.
Maayavaadi's only run away quit everything thinking it is illusion.
But a devotee can utilize everything for KC. Only thinking and perception changed.
You cannot understand it. We cannot explain it .. waste of time arguing on this maya and illusion etc. topics.
Just chant hare krishna. Krishna will remove all illusion and make your perception clear.
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