Hare Krishna Prabhujis and Matajis.
I am from Surat, Gujarat. My father and I have been member of ISKCON Surat since 15 years and my father was very dedicated towards ISKCON Surat and has been chanting rounds of Hare Krishna Mahamantra since last 15 years and also regularly attending ISKCON Sunday Feast and so am I. But recently, my father was provided a copy of Satyarth Prakash by Dayanand Saraswati. He is very much influenced by the book and is now confused whether the Supreme Lord is personal or impersonal. As per Satyarth Prakash, the Supreme Lord is impersonal and Krishna and Rama were very intelligent human-beings. My father is very much convinced by this and is very confused whether to believe ISKCON ideology or this Arya Samaj.
I am very much convinced that the Krishna is the supreme Lord and no one is above or equal to him. I have thoroughly read Bhagwad Gita-as it is, Krsna, Nector of Devotion and now reading Srimad Bhagvatam (reached Second Canto). I have no doubt about the supremacy of Krishna. Yesterday, I and my father had a very healthy discussion, you can call it debat, on personal feature of impersonal feature of Supreme Lord. I want to further state that my father is well-versed with the ideology of ISKCON as he has been actively involved with the ISKCON, Surat since last 15 years and now he is so much convinced by the Arya Samaj Theory. Father is still chanting his rounds but he tell me that he is not feeling any change by chanting hare krishna mahamantra. However, earlier, say 6-7 years ago, he used to say that he has experienced very positive change after he started chanting hare krishna mahamantra.
My father told me that he is not aginst ISKCON ideology but actually confused about what is real and what is not. So he says that he will do futher research in this matter. I am so much in pain after seeing my father talk like this after having associated with ISKCON for 15 years. Change in my father's thinking has not affected by faith in ISKCON and my faith that Krishna is everything and everything is Krishna.
I even tried to explain him that Lord Krishna himself has said in Bhagwad Gita that he is the Surpeme Lord and not a blade of grass moves without his wish. I even cited slokas from Brahma Samhita where Brahma ji cited that Govinda is the cause of all causes. But he says that as per Satyarth Prakash, the shastras have been manipulated by the brahmanas and they are not 100% dependable. He says that as per Vedas, God is impersonal and nowhere is it written that God has a shape. That Krishna and Rama were great human personalities and the Shastra have been manipulated.
I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance. Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking. Please Help.
Hare Krishna
Replies
I had shared that Neem Karoli Baba replied "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion." and when his devotee thought "there should be a way out", Baba replied "Constant repetition of God's name" is a way out. I've shortened the incident, you can read the original account in my reply to the OP. Then you started arguing on this. How's "Constant repetition of God's name" a running away quiting everything according to you?
arey bhai, listen temple and deity are not and never illusion.
everything is real. If not why then we are facing karmic effects? simple. I dont know about neam karoli baba ji but I all i know is chanting names of hari you can get liberated from all karma bandhanas. So don't worry.
One more important thing is this is not simply a ordinary forum like some india divinity forum. This is ISKCON related forum.
Here only devotees of Krishna who are followers of Srila Prabhupada are coming to discuss about the books related to ISKCON only. no other talks about other baba ji's are other forums are allowed here. It is some strict rules that the site follows.
You may have faith in any baba ji or any other person its not a problem but don't talk about them here. and more over what you are saying is wrong. I stand on that.
TEMPLE is not an illusion.
"everything is real. If not why then we are facing karmic effects? simple."
It's like saying if a video game is designed such that the player gets punished for doing something bad or rewarded for doing something good, then the world inside video game must be real.
"no other talks about other baba ji's are other forums are allowed here."
The OP's father had lost faith in ISKCON's ideology and the OP was requesting for help. So i presented him an alternate route which he can share with his father to reach the same practice which ISKCON teaches i.e. repetition of God's name. And you have problem with that. In my post in which i shared from India Divine forum, i shared a practical proof of glory of the Gita and Hare Krishna mantra. And you have problem with that. Gayatri ma'm 's opinion that "TEMPLE is not an illusion", which is contradicotry to the Gita is allowed here in this forum but opinion of an avatar of Hanuman (who is a great Vaishnava) isn't allowed here?
"you are demon then no less to a muslim"
Oh my God, your hatred for Muslims!
If quoting Hanuman and Bhagavad Gita makes me a "demon" then i take word "demon" to be praise :)
hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare.
Temple is not an illusion for those who can see Lord in every sand particle and every stone, plant tree living non living has Krishna.
Kan Kan mein Ram Jan Jan mein Ram. Ram Base hai Har kan mein.
This mayavaadi philosophy is fake. If temple is illusion and all material made. Then even the deity is made of the stone. tomorrow you will say Archa Vigraha also has no God as it is also material.
this Mayavaadi shuniyavaadi philosophy is more or less closer to Muslim who are against moorti pooja.
Muslims destroy temples and laugh at hindus saying you see God is stone. And they say God is everywhere and in everything. Allah has no form and its present sarvatra. How can it be possible when they cannot see Allah in Stone?
But they can see Allah in only one black stone which is in Kaba.
If Shankaracharyaa ment everything is illusion ask Sri Shankara to destroy linga also just like how muslim invaders did to many temples.
Sri Shankaracharaya's Mayavaad philosophy is misunderstood by its later followers. He didn't mean it that way. Only a true Vaishnava only can understand really what is Advaitism. Not a false pretensious Mayavaadi like a muslim or those who see idols and temples are also ilusion.
Shivites really who are into Advaitism see God in everything. Have you seen an Aghori? who eats the flesh of dead bodies.? They drink piss and eat poop also. they say shiva is in everything. Real Advaita vaadi are pure Vaishnavas.
Shiva and adi shankaracharya see Lord everywhere. Where does Shiva reside in a burial gound. applies ashes to his body. That is a real Vaishnava. Ashes ?? of dead bodies how much this is material? SHiva sees even ashes as pure and see Lord in that also.
Satyam shivam sundaram a true Vaishava Parama Vaishnava is Shiva. Lord is present everywhere to those who has the eye to see it. If not he will perceive everything as material. even a deity also.
It is a shame Advaitavaadi's who are basically Pure Vaishnavas are now deviated to Mayavaadi. Chaintaya Mahaprabhu condemned fake Mayvaadi's.
One time Vivekananda ( pure advaitavadi) was approached by a king muslim king. the muslim king started to insult Hindu idolatory and laughed at him saying your hindus pray to a stone. Cant you see It is stone If I hit it will break and is there a God in that? I can spit on the hindu God and your God cannot do anything as He is a stone.
Vivekananda said. -bring a picture of your grand father. The King ordered the sainiks to get a photo of the grandfather. Now standing before it Vivekananda said to him now spit on this? Why hesitating?? spit come on it is just made of paper. tommorow it will degrade. King was dumb and humbled down.
Shankaracharyaa prayed to Lord Shiva's diety and so also Lord Rama. Lord Rama made a shiva linga In Tamilnadu.
Ramanathaswamy Temple in tamilnadu was built by Lord Rama and the presiding deity is Shiva. Before corssing to Lanka and buildinga bridge Lord Rama made this temple installed Linga. What are you talking?
If that is so linga is also made of stone. tomorrow you will say that is also maya. and you are demon then no less to a muslim.
Advaitavaad mayavaadi turns vikruta ( deformed ) at this juncture where they see maaya in everything it is fake theory. Real Shivites see Everything shiva mayam. even material thing is also shiva. even ashes also shiva.
Vaishnavanam yatha shambu- “Vaishnavanams yatha Shambu – Lord Shiva is the greatest devotee of Lord Vishnu.”
"HMM, As you are being too fussy about this TEMPLE IS AN ILLUSION"
In the story i shared with OP i was focussing on the conclusion of the story, but you picked a statement from inside the story and requested me to tell you what it means. I obliged to your request and then you started arguing on it, and i've just been replying to your arguments.
"PLS give me what is your proof that temple is illusion. Let me also deal with it now. Time to talk it out."
I've already shared 3 proofs in this thread, 1 to Pranavi Ji, 1 to OP and 1 to you.
HMM, As you are being too fussy about this TEMPLE IS AN ILLUSION
PLS give me what is your proof that temple is illusion. Let me also deal with it now. Time to talk it out.
I don't have any personal grudge on you or neam karoli baba ji.
It is just my opinion it is upto ur discretion to take it or not take it.
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krsna
Arjuna directly asks this to Sri Krsna in BG - Which worship is better - impersonal or personal ?
Lord Sri Krsna has given a direct answer. - Worship of personal form is better. This should be sufficient for any person with brains.
arjuna uvāca
evaṁ satata-yuktā ye
bhaktās tvāṁ paryupāsate
ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktaṁ
teṣāṁ ke yoga-vittamāḥ
Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? (BG 12.1)
śrī-bhagavān uvāca
mayy āveśya mano ye māṁ
nitya-yuktā upāsate
śraddhayā parayopetās
te me yukta-tamā matāḥ
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. (BG 12.2)
But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable – the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth – by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me. (12.3-4)
kleśo ’dhika-taras teṣām
avyaktāsakta-cetasām
avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaṁ
dehavadbhir avāpyate
For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.( BG 12.5)
Hare Krsna
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