Hare Krishna Prabhujis and Matajis.

I am from Surat, Gujarat.  My father and I have been member of ISKCON Surat since 15 years and my father was very dedicated towards ISKCON Surat and has been chanting rounds of Hare Krishna Mahamantra since last 15 years and also regularly attending ISKCON Sunday Feast and so am I.  But recently, my father was provided a copy of Satyarth Prakash by Dayanand Saraswati.  He is very much influenced by the book and is now confused whether the Supreme Lord is personal or impersonal.  As per Satyarth Prakash, the Supreme Lord is impersonal and Krishna and Rama were very intelligent human-beings.  My father is very much convinced by this and is very confused whether to believe ISKCON ideology or this Arya Samaj.  

I am very much convinced that the Krishna is the supreme Lord and no one is above or equal to him.  I have thoroughly read Bhagwad Gita-as it is, Krsna, Nector of Devotion and now reading Srimad Bhagvatam (reached Second Canto).  I have no doubt about the supremacy of Krishna.  Yesterday, I and my father had a very healthy discussion, you can call it debat, on personal feature of impersonal feature of Supreme Lord.  I want to further state that my father is well-versed with the ideology of ISKCON as he has been actively involved with the ISKCON, Surat since last 15 years and now he is so much convinced by the Arya Samaj Theory.  Father is still chanting his rounds but he tell me that he is not feeling any change by chanting hare krishna mahamantra.  However, earlier, say 6-7 years ago, he used to say that he has experienced very positive change after he started chanting hare krishna mahamantra.

My father told me that he is not aginst ISKCON ideology but actually confused about what is real and what is not.  So he says that he will do futher research in this matter.  I am so much in pain after seeing my father talk like this after having associated with ISKCON for 15 years.  Change in my father's thinking has not affected by faith in ISKCON and my faith that Krishna is everything and everything is Krishna.  

I even tried to explain him that Lord Krishna himself has said in Bhagwad Gita that he is the Surpeme Lord and not a blade of grass moves without his wish.  I even cited slokas from Brahma Samhita where Brahma ji cited that Govinda is the cause of all causes.  But he says that as per Satyarth Prakash, the shastras have been manipulated by the brahmanas and they are not 100% dependable.  He says that as per Vedas, God is impersonal and nowhere is it written that God has a shape.  That Krishna and Rama were great human personalities and the Shastra have been manipulated.

I am very much disturbed by this and needs your help and valuable guidance.  Even my mother who reads Bhagwad Gita as it is regularly is confused by my fathers's sudden change in thinking.  Please Help.

Hare Krishna

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  • thanks, i like when prabhupada says from that site that does actaully anybody even believe that krishna even exsists?

  • Hare Krishna Prabhu ji!

    PAMHO

    don't worry. your father is chanting, so he will understand the sidhanta again. meanwhile, tell him how bhagavatam is still as it is! there has been no change in the bhagavatam because all the devotees were consistenly writing commentaries on it. the 10th canto of shrimad bhagavatm shows lila of lord krishna and can a impersonal being have any lilas? here are few more points-

    god is perfect. if he's perfect but doesn't have a personal form, isn't that an imperfection?

    we are god's children. can it be that the father is impersonal but the son is personal?

    Hare Krishna

    • main reason he have this conception is simple.. he didnt read bhagavatam

  • So Bhagavad Gita has been manipulated but much older Vedas have not? I myself don't trust the scriptures very much; i trust my guru more: Neem Karoli Baba. Baba used to do miracles like resurecting a dead person, giving eyesight to blind, turning water into ghee, etc. and he used to encourage chanting God's name(s).

    He said "Ram's form left this world, Krishna's form left this world, but the name stays. By reciting his name, everything is achieved." Shaking his head, he reiterated, "Everything is achieved."

    Here's an incident related to Neem Karoli Baba:

    ~~~

    Kishan Lal Sah, a teacher from Ramgarh, Nainital often visited   Kainchi to have Baba's darshan. His devotion was such that Baba was both his guru and God.

    Inspite of his deep faith, Kishan Lal was feeling depressed. He was disturbed by the evil seen in the world and by his own lack of spiritual progress. One day he went to Kainchi with the thought of discussing the matter with Baba.

    When he arrived, Kishan Lal saw Baba sitting on one end of the wooden bridge over the river. He went to him and bowed reverently.

    Before he could ask anything, Baba said, "You see others trapped by maya(illusion). Narada and Bharata were entrapped by maya. These great sages were entrapped by it, so what is there to say about others?"

    Kishan Lal felt that there was no need to question Baba further.

    On a different occasion Sah went to Baba with innumerable questions on spirituality. He greeted Baba, who was lying in his kuti(room), but he could not think of which question to ask first. Baba selected one important question from the unexpressed ones and answered it without being asked.

    Baba said, "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion. What can you do about it ?"

    This led to other questions and doubts in Kishan Lal's mind. Baba again answered them without being asked. Baba said, "Delusion makes everything look real."

    Kishan Lal thought that there should be a way out. Baba answered, "Attachment is only dispelled by grace."

    How can one obtain grace, came to Sah's mind. Baba said,"Constant repetition of God's name, even without feelings of devotion, in anger or lethargy, brings out his grace. Once this is realized, there is no room for misgivings."

    ~~~

    • Hare Krishna

      Prabhu ji, I had a humble question for neem karoli baba so if you can ask him... or maybe he'll answer even before you ask him! considering how great he is.

      what is the proof given in the scriptures that everything is an illusion?

      Iskcon is completely shastrik and the devotees have shastrik proof for everysingle practice they do (including deity service and making temple) I know about shastras telling how deity service is great and about making temples so, I have no doubt about it. but I feel that if I just trust your baba because he is so great, that is blind faith. so let's not fall into that right? kindly ask baba about my question. I would like to dispel it as soon as possible

      Hare Krishna

      • Hare Krishna Ma'm,

        "what is the proof given in the scriptures that everything is an illusion?"

        Prabhupada's translation of Bhagavad Gita 2.16: ( https://asitis.com/2/16.html )

        "Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent there is no endurance, and of the existent there is no cessation. This seers have concluded by studying the nature of both."

        If earthly temples would have been "existent" then they would be having "no cessation", but instead they cease over time, so they are "nonexistent", according to the above translation.

        It's like when Ramana Maharshi said: "What is not continuous cannot be real. If real, the thing must ever be real - and not real for a short time and unreal at other times.".

        I didn't ask your question to Baba because he has already said what he has said, and i don't want to ask him for scriptural proof for what he has said, especially when i myself don't trust what people call as "scriptures". Like if Krishna appears in front of you and gives you some knowledge, i don't think you would ask him for proof from scriptures for what he's teaching you.

        "if I just trust your baba because he is so great, that is blind faith. so let's not fall into that right?"

        You would rather have blind faith on scriptures? We don't know who wrote the scriptures, why should we trust the writers & translators of the scriptures, we don't know whether scriptures have been modified over time since they were written so long ago, and there are contradictions in scriptures. In the Gita, Krishna has said that he's God. I was reading Mahabharata; in it i was suprised to find a conversation between Arjuna and Krishna that after the war was over, they both were in palace, Arjuna asked Krishna to repeat the Gita, then Krishna replied that even he (Krishna) has forgotten it. If Krishna is God then how can he forget his own words, but that's what's written in scripture Mahabharata, of which Gita is part of. In Srimad Bhagavatam ( https://vedabase.io/en/library/sb/10/89/58/ ), Maha Vishnu said to Krishna and Arjuna: "I wanted to see the two of you, My expansions, who have descended to the earth to save the principles of religion.". If Krishna is God then how can he be an expansion of another being? But i still consider Krishna to be God because Neem Karoli Baba used to consider him God. I've been using "used to" with Neem Karoli Baba because Baba has left his body.. but still he has been giving darshan to people after that.

        You wanted proof from scriptures to which i replied to you BG 2.16 Prabhupada's translation. Are you satisfied dear sister?

        Bhagavad Gita As It Is Original by Prabhupada
        Bhagavad Gita is Krishna's battlefield discussion with Arjuna. By A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. With search engine, art gallery, original Sans…
        • Hare Krishna Prabhu ji!
          dear brother, I'm still not satisfied... because, if srila prabhupada meant it in this way, then would he establish so many temples? kindly read the purport my dear brother. it is based on body. not deities. and the scriptures are written by ved vyas who is the literary incarnation of the supreme personality of godhead. all the doubts you had about the scriptures can be easily dispelled by vaishnavas so please visit the nearest iskcon temple and ask them. since you consider me as your sister, I am saying this as a matter of concern just like a sister show towards her brother

          Hare Krishna

    • Sevak

      Hare Krsna 

      So Bhagavad Gita has been manipulated but much older Vedas have not?  I myself don't trust the scriptures very much

      If you do not have any faith on the most important scripture of Sanatana Dharma which has been accepted by great sages, devotees etc , then you have no place in these forums. Please quit. 

      Hare Krsna

    • Hare Krishna kralaro prabhu ji,

      May I know what does it mean when you said--" "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion. What can you do about it ?"

      I know one thing for sure is our eyes are made up of matter, body and mind are made up of matter so they percieve wrongly!!!!! 

      Material things cannot perceive spiritual things . It is right.  

      But The statement is wrong that everything is illusion , temple is illusion, scriptures are illusion.

      If you can explain a bit more what do you mean by this " everything is illusion" explain. Becoz as far as we all Krishna conscious devotees know is. 

      Everything which we see is not illusion if we include Krishna in it. Away from Krishna yes it is illusion.

      Our perception of things is wrong when we don't have Krishna in our thoughts and actions.

      Like for example;.-- A rope is percieved as a snake when there is no light. But the same eyes see it as rope when there is light.

      Here In this Example you can understand that the eyes are the same. the observer is also same. what changed in this experiement is  the light.

      Light is Krishna ...when there is light there is no maya( darkeness) then we see things perfectly and correctly as it is. 

      It is NOT TRUE TO SAY EVERYTHING IS ILLUSION. 


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      • Hare Krishna Ma'm,

        "kralaro prabhu ji" sounds funny to me.

        The statement "This temple and whatever is seen by the human eye are illusion." is by my guru but i can guess what it means. Whatever is seen by human eye is an illusion. Like inside of human body actually doesn't exist: one does't have any liver, lungs etc., unless the body is opened up, then the illusion of liver and lungs would be created and one would see them. I'm sitting under a fan but the fan doesn't exist, but if i look up then illusion of fan would be created and i would see it. If then i look down then there would be no more need of illusion of fan and then the illusion of fan would go away. This happens because there may be no need for God to sustain the existence of liver and fan when no one is looking at them. It's like movie "The Matrix" where people's brains are connected to computers which immerse them in virtual worlds. This world is virtual.

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