Prabhupada once asked this question to his diciples in Vrandavan(I think). They were all sitting there in front of him and were expecting a lecture. But instead, Prabhupada, innocently ask them "How they can be sure that Krsna is what he say He is -- i.e The Supreme Personality of God. How can we be sure?? I mean other then writings in the Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures, and what the Guru tells you, how can you be sure that Krsna is God. What if Prabhupada lied, how can they be sure he was telling the truth?
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I think you are right Jagadatma Das when you say that by direct perception you can know Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thats what Srila Prabhupada also recommended to the devotees at that time. You have to feel Krsna in your heart (direct perception) to truly know He is the Supreme Lord.
Dear devotees Hare Krsna. Srila Prabhupada writes in the introduction to Bhagavad Gita that to know Krsna you have to become like Arjuna.
You have to enter into a direct relationship with the Lord.
Krsna gave Arjuna the vision to see the Truth.
bhaktya mam abhijanati only by bhakti can you know Me in Truth.
At the present you are dependent on faith and scriptural evidence but as you advance you will see Krsna and experience Krsna in a loving relationship. bhava.
This is explained in the beginning of Srimad Bhagavatam that by hearing from the pure devotee you will become completely purified and gain direct perception of the Truth.
So by direct perception you will know that Krsna is factually the Suprerne Personality \of Godhead. Hare Krsna.
You need to be more specific when you say "Chanting clears the muck in our hearts."
when you say chanting, its like saying the word snow to an eskimo. You need to be more specific. Chanting that you are referring to is japa, bajan or nagar Sankirtan? Chanting of who's names?
Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... in the 1st instruction,
ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaḿ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaḿ
śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaḿ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam
ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ prati-padaḿ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaḿ
sarvātma-snapanaḿ paraḿ vijayate "śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtanam"
Instruction is clearly for Harinam, (nagar) Sankirtana and not Japa.
Unfortunately, the word "chanting" is a fluff word and does not have enough information in it.
Please forgive me if I offend you or anyone.
Hare Krishna Joshi Prabhu,
Can you please let me know what answer did prabhupad gave or got from student, i want to know the concluding answer.
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Thank you for your replies. They were enlightening.
The sastra say who God is, even explicitly in some. We get information from Guru and also from pure devotees (Sadhus). They are the right source to get the right information. Generally, a newcomer does not immediately know or feel anything towards Krsna. He may be told Krsna is God, but he does not have any real experience about this.
Thats why it is important for more advance devotees to help and reassure the newcomers in their devotional service. My question was primarily to ask about Krsna "experienced" by more advance devotees. Krsna is real, and his relationship is also real, all we need is FAITH, ACCEPTANCE and PATIENCE to realise this. Chanting clears the muck in our hearts. And the Guru's advice clears the way for progress. And sastra's re-inforce our own experiences.
Jitesh Prabhu, what you have asked is a very nice question. Your question should actually word, why our friend Krishna, who is so easily approachable is the Supreme Lord, the Father of all fathers and Lord of all lords, the Supreme Personality of Godhead?
"Saadhu, Shastra and Guru" is the method to test any information.
Bhaktin Maral mataji has giving a very nice explanation that we must go to authority to get answers.
Lets say you want to know who your father is, who would know that answer?
Only your mother, the one who gave birth to you knows who your father is.
In this case she is the authority for the required information.
If one does not know who the father is, one should ask their mother.
And if your mother says so and so is your father, then, you accept it by faith.
Then you say, this is my father. You dont question it.
So you go to authority. In this case your mother.
Same way the one who gave birth to all of us is Lord Brahma.
Lord Brahma is the Authority who can give us the information who our supreme father is.
The fifth chapter of Sri Brahma smahita, the hymns of Brahma, who is the adi-guru of the Madhva sampradaya, begins with the statement:
"The supreme controller is Krsna, who has an eternal form of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. He is known as Govinda and he is the cause of all causes."
Once we test with Sadhu, Shastra and Guru, we accept it by Faith.
Follow the 1st instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by performing Sankirtana and start distributing the Holy Names of Krishna and pretty soon the layers of dirt accumulated on our hearts will be lifted.
Prabhupada on 8 Instructions of Caitanya Mahprabhu
Lord Caitanya gave us eight stanzas of His mission, what He wanted to do. They are explained in eight stanzas, and they are known as Sikṣāṣṭaka. Sikṣā means instruction, and āṣṭaka means eight. So in eight stanzas He has finished his instruction, and His next disciples, the six Gosvāmīs, have explained them in volumes of books. So Lord Caitanya says the subject is paraḿ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṇkīrtanam: all glories to the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra or Kṛṣṇa saṇkīrtan movement. All glories. All victory. How it is victory, all victory? That He explains, that ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then the dirty things which have accumulated in your heart due to material contamination will be cleared off. He gives the example that the heart is just like a mirror. If on the mirror there are heaps of dust accumulated, then one cannot see the real face by the reflection of the mirror. Therefore, it should be cleansed. So in our present conditional life, our heart is overloaded with so much dust accumulated due to our material association from time immemorial. So if we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then the dust will be removed. Even not immediately, it will begin to be removed. And as soon as the mirror of the heart is cleansed of all dust, immediately one can see the face what he is. That face means real identification. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one will understand that he is not this body. This is our misconception. The dust means this misconception, accepting this body or the mind as self. Actually, we are not this body or the mind. We are spirit soul. So as soon as we can understand that we are not these bodies, immediately bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. The blazing fire of material conditions, or the blazing fire of material miseries, immediately becomes dissipated. No more misery. Ahaḿ brahmāsmi. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Immediately one understands his real identification as spirit soul, he becomes joyful. We are not joyful. Due to our material contact, we are always full of anxieties. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we shall immediately come to the stage of joyful life. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. And this is called liberation. When one becomes joyful, free from all anxieties, that stage is actual liberation because every living creature, the spirit soul is by nature joyful. The whole struggle for existence is that he is searching after that joyful stage of life, but he missing the point. Therefore, in every effort for joyful life we are being defeated. This constant defeat can be overcome immediately by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That is the effect of this transcendental vibration. And after liberation, after being joyful, the material joys decreases. Whatever joy you want to enjoy, that decreases. Take, for example, for eating. If we want to eat some nice foodstuff, after eating a few morsels of food we do not like to take any more. That means here in the material world, whatever joy we accept, it will decrease. But spiritual joy, Lord Caitanya says ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, the spiritual joy is just like ocean. But here in the material world, we have got experience that ocean does not increase. Ocean remains within its limit. But the ocean of spiritual joyfulness increases. Anandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Sreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam. How it increases? He is giving the example like the moon, rising moon. As the waxing moon. As the moon from the day of new moon, new moon night, the first day it is just like a small curved line. But second day, third day it increases, gradually it increases. Similarly, the spiritual life, the spiritual joyful life increases like the moon rays day after day, day after day, till it reaches the full moon night, yes. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam, śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam. And the life then becomes full of knowledge because spiritual life means eternal life, full of bliss and full of knowledge. So we increase our volumes of joy because proportionately we increase the volume of our knowledge. Sreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaḿ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ. It is just like a ocean, but still it increases. Anandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ, sarvātma-snapanaḿ. It is so nice that once situated in this state of life, one thinks that "I am fully satisfied." Sarvātma-snapanaḿ. Just like if one takes bath dipping into the water, he feels refreshed immediately. Similarly, this spiritual life increasing joys day after day makes one feeling that he is fully satisfied.
Jai Srila Prabhupad. All glories to Sankirtana Movement.
Thank You Deepak Prabhu, for deep explanation.
yes, i also agree that in order to feel Krishna first we have to clean our heart. Because we may misuse it with some other feelings. Maybe become little bit "sahajiya". Please forgive me if i said something bad, or please correct me!
But sometimes in the beginning Krishna gives some realization for a neotype Devotee in order to fixture his heart in Krishna Consciousness. And Devotee starts to feel spiritual ecstasy by following Sadhana, chanting, serving to Devotees...
but when he becomes fixed enough Krishna takes away that feeling and he starts to say: durdaivam idrisham... how unfortunate i am that i do not have taste for chanting.
As like He did it with Srila Narada Muni. He appeared to him for a moment then disappeared just to increase in him desire to see Him again.
---------------
Jitesh Joshi Prabhu, by saying by chanting we become happy i mean exactly same thing which You told later. I did not mean that we become happy just because of some external things but we become so because we for a moment felt that the same Naam is sitting in our heart and it is joyful. I mean that happiness, the happiness of sweetness of the Holy Names.
Your servant,
Hare Krishna,
Nice question.
Just adding some points to what Maral mtj answered,
The first process of knowing the authority of shastras is by the guru, sadhu and shastra triangle. Shastra are a process from which we can just hear and realize by practicing the process.
There are always four kinds of people in this world:
1st class is the one who realizes by hearing
2nd class realizes by seeing experience of others
3rd class person realizes by experience
4th class doesn't realizes even after repeated experience.
Ex : if we tell a person that by jumping from a 14 storey building, you'll break your bones, The 1st class person doesn't understands by hearing. 2nd class person sees the other person jumping and going to hospital and he understands.
3rd class person thinks maybe i can jump better and jumps off, and when he goes to hospital he realizes. The 4th class person even after getting discharged from the hospital, he comes back to the same place and thinks " maybe last time i jumped in a wrong angle, let me try again", so he doesn't realize at all.
Similarly some need to just hear from scriptures, some need to see examples of realized people, some need to experience the results, and some don't understand at all.
So our faith develops when we get step by step realization in Krsna consciousness. For ex: if you ask me "how to go to station D?" i tell you "first of all go to station A, then you'll get B, then you'll get station C, then you'll reach your destination D". Initially you may not have faith, but by following the process, when you get station A, you develop some faith, you'll think maybe that person was right, let me go ahead, so subsequently you will get all the checkpoints and then you get complete faith when you achieve the destination.
feeling krsna in heart is a very far away process for a conditioned soul. First of all the heart should get freed from anarthas, "ceto darpana marjanam", that is the first step. that can be achieved by chanting.
Replies
Hare Krsna,
I think you are right Jagadatma Das when you say that by direct perception you can know Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thats what Srila Prabhupada also recommended to the devotees at that time. You have to feel Krsna in your heart (direct perception) to truly know He is the Supreme Lord.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krishna pr,
pamho agtspsg
My way: do some activity purposefully that would be unacceptable to Krishna.. you will get the reply soon :)..
i have tried..
You have to enter into a direct relationship with the Lord.
Krsna gave Arjuna the vision to see the Truth.
bhaktya mam abhijanati only by bhakti can you know Me in Truth.
At the present you are dependent on faith and scriptural evidence but as you advance you will see Krsna and experience Krsna in a loving relationship. bhava.
This is explained in the beginning of Srimad Bhagavatam that by hearing from the pure devotee you will become completely purified and gain direct perception of the Truth.
So by direct perception you will know that Krsna is factually the Suprerne Personality \of Godhead. Hare Krsna.
You need to be more specific when you say "Chanting clears the muck in our hearts."
when you say chanting, its like saying the word snow to an eskimo. You need to be more specific. Chanting that you are referring to is japa, bajan or nagar Sankirtan? Chanting of who's names?
Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... in the 1st instruction,
ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanaḿ bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaḿ
śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaḿ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam
ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ prati-padaḿ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaḿ
sarvātma-snapanaḿ paraḿ vijayate "śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtanam"
Instruction is clearly for Harinam, (nagar) Sankirtana and not Japa.
Unfortunately, the word "chanting" is a fluff word and does not have enough information in it.
Please forgive me if I offend you or anyone.
Haribol
Can you please let me know what answer did prabhupad gave or got from student, i want to know the concluding answer.
Eagerly waiting for your reply.
Thank you for your replies. They were enlightening.
The sastra say who God is, even explicitly in some. We get information from Guru and also from pure devotees (Sadhus). They are the right source to get the right information. Generally, a newcomer does not immediately know or feel anything towards Krsna. He may be told Krsna is God, but he does not have any real experience about this.
Thats why it is important for more advance devotees to help and reassure the newcomers in their devotional service. My question was primarily to ask about Krsna "experienced" by more advance devotees. Krsna is real, and his relationship is also real, all we need is FAITH, ACCEPTANCE and PATIENCE to realise this. Chanting clears the muck in our hearts. And the Guru's advice clears the way for progress. And sastra's re-inforce our own experiences.
Hare Krsna.
And just a little love also helps :)
"Saadhu, Shastra and Guru" is the method to test any information.
Bhaktin Maral mataji has giving a very nice explanation that we must go to authority to get answers.
Lets say you want to know who your father is, who would know that answer?
Only your mother, the one who gave birth to you knows who your father is.
In this case she is the authority for the required information.
If one does not know who the father is, one should ask their mother.
And if your mother says so and so is your father, then, you accept it by faith.
Then you say, this is my father. You dont question it.
So you go to authority. In this case your mother.
Same way the one who gave birth to all of us is Lord Brahma.
Lord Brahma is the Authority who can give us the information who our supreme father is.
The fifth chapter of Sri Brahma smahita, the hymns of Brahma, who is the adi-guru of the Madhva sampradaya, begins with the statement:
isvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah
sarva-karana-karanam
"The supreme controller is Krsna, who has an eternal form of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. He is known as Govinda and he is the cause of all causes."
Once we test with Sadhu, Shastra and Guru, we accept it by Faith.
Follow the 1st instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by performing Sankirtana and start distributing the Holy Names of Krishna and pretty soon the layers of dirt accumulated on our hearts will be lifted.
Prabhupada on 8 Instructions of Caitanya Mahprabhu
ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇaḿ
śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaḿ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam
ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ prati-padaḿ pūrṇāmṛtāsvādanaḿ
sarvātma-snapanaḿ paraḿ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtanam
Lord Caitanya gave us eight stanzas of His mission, what He wanted to do. They are explained in eight stanzas, and they are known as Sikṣāṣṭaka. Sikṣā means instruction, and āṣṭaka means eight. So in eight stanzas He has finished his instruction, and His next disciples, the six Gosvāmīs, have explained them in volumes of books. So Lord Caitanya says the subject is paraḿ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-saṇkīrtanam: all glories to the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra or Kṛṣṇa saṇkīrtan movement. All glories. All victory. How it is victory, all victory? That He explains, that ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam. If you chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then the dirty things which have accumulated in your heart due to material contamination will be cleared off. He gives the example that the heart is just like a mirror. If on the mirror there are heaps of dust accumulated, then one cannot see the real face by the reflection of the mirror. Therefore, it should be cleansed. So in our present conditional life, our heart is overloaded with so much dust accumulated due to our material association from time immemorial. So if we chant this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, then the dust will be removed. Even not immediately, it will begin to be removed. And as soon as the mirror of the heart is cleansed of all dust, immediately one can see the face what he is. That face means real identification. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, one will understand that he is not this body. This is our misconception. The dust means this misconception, accepting this body or the mind as self. Actually, we are not this body or the mind. We are spirit soul. So as soon as we can understand that we are not these bodies, immediately bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. The blazing fire of material conditions, or the blazing fire of material miseries, immediately becomes dissipated. No more misery. Ahaḿ brahmāsmi. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā. Immediately one understands his real identification as spirit soul, he becomes joyful. We are not joyful. Due to our material contact, we are always full of anxieties. By chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, we shall immediately come to the stage of joyful life. Bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam. And this is called liberation. When one becomes joyful, free from all anxieties, that stage is actual liberation because every living creature, the spirit soul is by nature joyful. The whole struggle for existence is that he is searching after that joyful stage of life, but he missing the point. Therefore, in every effort for joyful life we are being defeated. This constant defeat can be overcome immediately by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That is the effect of this transcendental vibration. And after liberation, after being joyful, the material joys decreases. Whatever joy you want to enjoy, that decreases. Take, for example, for eating. If we want to eat some nice foodstuff, after eating a few morsels of food we do not like to take any more. That means here in the material world, whatever joy we accept, it will decrease. But spiritual joy, Lord Caitanya says ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, the spiritual joy is just like ocean. But here in the material world, we have got experience that ocean does not increase. Ocean remains within its limit. But the ocean of spiritual joyfulness increases. Anandāmbudhi-vardhanam. Sreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam. How it increases? He is giving the example like the moon, rising moon. As the waxing moon. As the moon from the day of new moon, new moon night, the first day it is just like a small curved line. But second day, third day it increases, gradually it increases. Similarly, the spiritual life, the spiritual joyful life increases like the moon rays day after day, day after day, till it reaches the full moon night, yes. So ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-mahā-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam, śreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇam vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam. And the life then becomes full of knowledge because spiritual life means eternal life, full of bliss and full of knowledge. So we increase our volumes of joy because proportionately we increase the volume of our knowledge. Sreyaḥ-kairava-candrikā-vitaraṇaḿ vidyā-vadhū-jīvanam, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ. It is just like a ocean, but still it increases. Anandāmbudhi-vardhanaḿ, sarvātma-snapanaḿ. It is so nice that once situated in this state of life, one thinks that "I am fully satisfied." Sarvātma-snapanaḿ. Just like if one takes bath dipping into the water, he feels refreshed immediately. Similarly, this spiritual life increasing joys day after day makes one feeling that he is fully satisfied.
Jai Srila Prabhupad. All glories to Sankirtana Movement.
yes, i also agree that in order to feel Krishna first we have to clean our heart. Because we may misuse it with some other feelings. Maybe become little bit "sahajiya". Please forgive me if i said something bad, or please correct me!
But sometimes in the beginning Krishna gives some realization for a neotype Devotee in order to fixture his heart in Krishna Consciousness. And Devotee starts to feel spiritual ecstasy by following Sadhana, chanting, serving to Devotees...
but when he becomes fixed enough Krishna takes away that feeling and he starts to say: durdaivam idrisham... how unfortunate i am that i do not have taste for chanting.
As like He did it with Srila Narada Muni. He appeared to him for a moment then disappeared just to increase in him desire to see Him again.
---------------
Jitesh Joshi Prabhu, by saying by chanting we become happy i mean exactly same thing which You told later. I did not mean that we become happy just because of some external things but we become so because we for a moment felt that the same Naam is sitting in our heart and it is joyful. I mean that happiness, the happiness of sweetness of the Holy Names.
Your servant,
Nice question.
Just adding some points to what Maral mtj answered,
The first process of knowing the authority of shastras is by the guru, sadhu and shastra triangle. Shastra are a process from which we can just hear and realize by practicing the process.
There are always four kinds of people in this world:
1st class is the one who realizes by hearing
2nd class realizes by seeing experience of others
3rd class person realizes by experience
4th class doesn't realizes even after repeated experience.
Ex : if we tell a person that by jumping from a 14 storey building, you'll break your bones, The 1st class person doesn't understands by hearing. 2nd class person sees the other person jumping and going to hospital and he understands.
3rd class person thinks maybe i can jump better and jumps off, and when he goes to hospital he realizes. The 4th class person even after getting discharged from the hospital, he comes back to the same place and thinks " maybe last time i jumped in a wrong angle, let me try again", so he doesn't realize at all.
Similarly some need to just hear from scriptures, some need to see examples of realized people, some need to experience the results, and some don't understand at all.
So our faith develops when we get step by step realization in Krsna consciousness. For ex: if you ask me "how to go to station D?" i tell you "first of all go to station A, then you'll get B, then you'll get station C, then you'll reach your destination D". Initially you may not have faith, but by following the process, when you get station A, you develop some faith, you'll think maybe that person was right, let me go ahead, so subsequently you will get all the checkpoints and then you get complete faith when you achieve the destination.
feeling krsna in heart is a very far away process for a conditioned soul. First of all the heart should get freed from anarthas, "ceto darpana marjanam", that is the first step. that can be achieved by chanting.
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