Hare Krishna Devotees
Please forgive me for my ignorance or stupid questions but I need to clarify my doubts and want to be more invovled in KC
Does moksha or going back to god head means to become one with God.
After moksha do we lose our independent soul identity? and merge with god
when we speak about moksha or going back to god head. Assuming that all the souls in this world go back to God head and never come back then what's the meaning of this whole material creation of God.
Isn't this all a game of Bhagwan Krishna that he wants people to play the game of life and death.
If Bhagwan Krishna wants everybody to come back to his home (vaikuntha lok) then what remains is only spiritual world . What does it mean to have only spiritual world. I feel that God himself wants people go to material world and let the whole show of material existence begin.
Replies
Hare Krishna, mataji!!! It will be automatically given to you, there is nothing to pray for it. Krishna arranges things in such a beautiful way for His devotee so that the devotee can enjoy His association eternally.
Hare Krishna, mataji!!! Here I extract a portion from Srila Prabhupada's 'science of Self-Realization' Chapter 8-
'There are different kinds of salvation. There is salokya liberation, to live on the same planet as the Supreme Lord. The residents of the Vaikuntha planets live on the same planet as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sarsti liberation means to have almost the same opulence as Narayana.
The liberated individual soul can appear just like Narayana, with four hands, the four emblems, almost the same bodily features, the same opulence, the same ornaments, the same buildings, everything. Sarupya means to have the same form or features.
Samipya means never to be far away but always to be associated with the Supreme Lord. For example, just as we are sitting together, so one can associate with the Lord. This is called samipya-mukti, the liberation of being nearer.
Pure devotees, however, do not accept these various forms of liberation. They only want to be engaged in Krishna’s service. They are not concerned with any kind of liberation.
Those who are actually Krishna conscious achieve the association of the Supreme Lord, but they do not desire it; their only ambition is to be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The highest perfection of devotional service, or Krishna consciousness, is exhibited when a devotee refuses to accept any benediction or profit from the Supreme Lord.
Prahlada Maharaja was offered whatever he liked, he had only to ask for it, but he said, “My Lord, I am Your eternal servant. It is my duty to serve You, so how can I accept any benefit from it? Then I would not be Your servant; I would be a merchant.”
He replied in that way, and that is the sign of a pure person. Krishna is so kind that He fulfills all the desires of a devotee, even if he wants material benedictions. If at the bottom of the devotee’s heart there is some desire, He also fulfills that.
He is so kind. But the sublime position of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service, is that a pure devotee refuses to accept the various kinds of liberation, even if offered by the Supreme Lord.'
In ekavatam, unlike the four kinds of liberation mentioned above(where there one retains his individuality in a spiritual form known as Bhagavati Tanu with which he renders service unto Lord in Vaikuntha or Goloka), there is a complete ontological cessation and loss of individuality. This is not a liberation in proper sense, this is, being totally extinct. For a devotee,this is more painful than suffering in hell. So it's better to have a personal relationship with Lord because individuality is never lost in this relationship and there is a constant exchange of love.
Hare krsna Prabhuji
Thank you for taking your time out to explain this.
So shouldn't a pure devotee be looking for liberation/mukti same as samipya since he/she would be in close association of Lord krishna as an individual soul and can serve him forever.
Hare Krishna Mataji!!! First , I would try my best to answer this part of question-'what's the meaning of this whole material creation of God'. Prabhupada in of his conversations with his devotees said,' The individual soul due to independence may act foolishly and crave for Lordship due to which, they gradually fall into the material world. So material house is just a prison house where you are held as a captive and the moment you realise your constitutional position that you are the eternal servant of Lord Krishna, you are released. Just like the government erect prisons to hold captives for the sins they commit, so the material world has been created to imprison the fallen souls.' In Bible, we see, Satan was banished from heaven and sent to hell for revolting against God. The same is the case for fallen souls. But when one regains his true spiritual position and goes back home, back to Godhead, he never falls down, for now, he is well aware of the consequences of his insanity. This is confirmed by Krishna in Bhagavad Gita-
Bhagavad Gita Chapter 12 Verse 8
mayy eva mana adhatsva
mayi buddhim nivesaya
nivasisyasi mayy eva
ata urdhvam na samsayah
SYNONYMS
mayi--unto Me; eva--certainly; manah--mind; adhatsva--fix; mayi--upon
Me; buddhim--intelligence; nivesaya--apply; nivasisyasi--you live;
mayi--unto Me; eva--certainly; atah urdhvam--thereafter; na--never;
samsayah--doubt.
TRANSLATION
Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and
engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live with Me always,
without a doubt.
Regarding your question on liberation, I hope this will help you---
Srimad-Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana) 3.29.13:
salokya-sarsti-samipya-
sarupyaikatvam apy uta
diyamanam na grhnanti
vina mat-sevanam janah
salokya--living on the same planet; sarsti--having the same opulence; samipya--to be a personal associate; sarupya--having the same bodily features; ekatvam--oneness; api--also; uta--even; diyama--nam--being offered; na--not; grhnanti--do accept; vina--without; mat--My; sevanam--devotional service; janah--pure devotees.
A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
SB 9.4.67:
mat-sevaya pratitam te
salokyadi-catustayam
necchanti sevaya purnah
kuto 'nyat kala-viplutam
mat-sevaya--by being engaged fully in My transcendental loving service; pratitam--automatically achieved; te--such pure devotees are fully satisfied; salokya-adi-catustayam--the four different types of liberation (salokya, sarupya, samipya and sarsti, what to speak of sayujya); na--not; icchanti--desire; sevaya--simply by devotional service; purnah--fully complete; kutah--where is the question; anyat--other things; kala-viplutam--which are finished in the course of time.
My devotees, who are always satisfied to be engaged in My loving service, are not interested even in the four principles of liberation [salokya, sarupya, samipya and sarsti], although these are automatically achieved by their service. What then is to be said of such perishable happiness as elevation to the higher planetary systems?
Ekatva, onenesss, is also called sayujya. Here are two relevant paraphrases of Vedanta-sutra:
"Many upanisadic passages describe liberation as the absorption of the soul into Brahman. This initial stage of the soul's entry into the effulgent Brahman sphere is called sayujya-mukti. Having attained the spiritual world, the soul may attain four higher kinds of mukti, all of which share the quality of unity established in sayujya-mukti. (Vs 4.4.4)
"The liberated soul is an enjoyer. In sayujya-mukti, the soul enjoys transcendental bliss without a spiritual body like a sleeping person enjoys dreams. The bliss of personal liberation, in which the soul manifests a spiritual body, is far greater. The desire of the liberated soul to enjoy is not materially motivated, for his pleasure is the mercy of the Supreme Lord." (Vs 4.4.13-14)
Vaishnava theology says that an individual 'soul' (jiva) ascends from the material world to the spiritual realm, passing through brahmajyoti (spiritual rays of God's abodes) and ends up where her eternal position (svarupa, 'inherent form') is, i.e. in relationship with a particular form of God - Krishna, Rama, Visnu, etc. (They are not only avataras but also have their own abodes.) This is nicely narrated in Sanatana Gosvami's Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrta, '(great) nectar of the (great) Bhagavata Purana'.
The main difference between monistic and monotheistic version is about the end situation. Vaisnavas do not consider be in the brahmajyoti a permanent position as per Bhagavata Purana 10.2.32, etc.
So sayujya is not really a liberation because it is not permanent. The efforts of brahma-vadis, impersonalists, are therefore misplaced. The other four types can be achieved only by bhakti, devotional service to the Lord. Thus bhakti is considered the real mukti and pure devotees don't aspire for anything else. There are nine processes of bhakti listed in SB 7.5.23-24:
sri-prahrada uvaca
sravanam kirtanm visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam
iti pumsarpita visnau
bhaktis cen nava-laksana
kriyeta bhagavaty addha
tan manye 'dhitam uttamam
Prahlada Maharaja said: 'Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of the Lord, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) -- these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krishna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.'
These processes are executed under the guidance of advanced devotees. In the beginning they may be done out of a sense of duty. Later, as the practitioner advances in his love for the Lord, these items of devotional service are carried out spontaneously.
adau sraddha tatah sadhu-
sango 'tha bhajana-kriya
tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat
tato nistha rucis tatah
athasaktis tato bhavas
tatah premabhyudancati
sadhakanam ayam premnah
pradurbhave bhavet kramah
"In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krishna consciousness, which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life."
Hare krishna prabuji
Thank you for explaining in detail.
Can you clarify this : salokya, sarsti, samipya and sarupua in more detail
salokya-sarsti-samipya-
sarupyaikatvam apy uta
diyamanam na grhnanti
vina mat-sevanam janah
salokya--living on the same planet; (is it living as individual soul but in the same planet as Shri Krishna and having souls own freedom?)
sarsti--having the same opulence;( is it living as individual soul and having the same qualities/attributes/power/potency as Shri Krishna?)
samipya--to be a personal associate; ( a personal associate as a friend or as a devotee or as a servant?)
sarupya--having the same bodily features; ( since there is no physical body in spiritual world then what does bodily features means ;does it imply Shri Krishna subtle body mind and intelligence?)
ekatvam--oneness;( does it mean to get merged into Shri Krishna himself losing the soul's individual identity?)
Hare Krishna Mataji. Please Accept my humble obeisances . All Glories to Srila Prabhupada
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Does moksha or going back to god head means to become one with God.After moksha do we lose our independent soul identity? and merge with god
*/
Moksha means liberation from the cycle of repeated birth and death. Birth and Death is due to material body which a soul gets according to its desire and karma. Now in material existence a soul is like a fish out of water, i.e the soul is spirit thus its constitutional position is to be in spiritual world where Krishna resides. So when the spirit soul go back to its original home in the spirtual world then its called MOKSHA. MOKSHA MEANS NO MORE MATERIAL BODY beacuse birth and death subject to only Material
body not the soul.
Moksha is of two kind Personal and Impersonal so there are too kind of transendentalist accordingly who strives for Moksha:
1. Mayavadi(The impersonalists)
Mayavadis wants to merge in the impersonal feature of lord (i.e bramhajyoti) . Bramhajyoti is the golden effluence that is coming out from Krishna's body. Now just consider sun and sunlight, sun is Krishna and sunlight is bramhojyoti.Bramhojyoti contains innumerable souls but they remain there without identity and activity. So aspiring to attain the impersonal feature of lord is one type of moksha in which the individual soul loose its identity and remain as a molecule.
But there is chance of falldown again in this material world. So therefore this kind of sadhana has no gurantee.
2. Devotee(The personalists)
Devotee or Bhaktas are those who want to serve Krishna. To serve Krishna Personally the devotees needs a spiritual body. As Krishna is a person and he lives in Vaikuntha with his associates so the transendentalist who practice Bhakti yoga reach Vaikuntha after death and they get a spiritual Body according to their mood of serving and associate with lord personally.
No falldown. ever blissful and joyful eternal life. This is highest perfection.
In short BACK TO GODHEAD means SERVING LORD PERSONALLY WITH INDIVIDUAL IDENTITY IN VAIKUNTHA and TO BECOME ONE WITH GOD means LOSING ONE'S IDENTITY AND JUST REMAIN AS A MOLECULE IN THE BODILY EFFLUENCE OF KRISHNA.
/*when we speak about moksha or going back to god head. Assuming that all the souls in this world go back to God head and never come back then what's the meaning of this whole material creation of God.Isn't this all a game of Bhagwan Krishna that he wants people to play the game of life and death.*/
It is not that GOD want to play and created this material world for his enjoyment. Krishna is atmarama (who takes pleasure in his own soul) . He has nothing to do with this material world.
Being a part and percel of Krishna we have some minute independence as Krishna is supreme independent.So sometimes the individual soul want to misuse its minute independence and desire to enjoy separately of Krishna. The individual soul thinks "why Krishna sould alone be Lord I want to be Lord also". Then Krishna out of his causeless mercy as a merciful father gives the facility to the individual soul by creating the material world to enjoy. Where the soul can think that they are lord, forgetting Krishna (Krishna also gives the forgetfullness thus we can enjoy forgetting Krishna. See HOW MERCIFUL KRISHNA IS) . Just think we all have a tendency to be served by others....... How RASCAL WE ARE:)
So the world is created for our enjoyment. Its not GOD's play. we desire to be separated so HE has given the facility.
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If Bhagwan Krishna wants everybody to come back to his home (vaikuntha lok) then what remains is only spiritual world . What does it mean to have only spiritual world. I feel that God himself wants people go to material world and let the whole show of material existence begin.*/
Spiritual world always exists. It is the basic teaching of VEDAS that we are spirit soul so we are eternal. If we are Individual and eternal then there must be some place where these individuals resides.As we are here resides in a home but it is temporary here so in spiritual world we have our home but it is eternal. Krishna want us to get back in his abode but we don't want. Here we are making plan for our family,wife and children..........WE ARE RASCAL NO ONE :)
Again GOD dosen't want, we want. IF GOD is the cause of our suffering the HE wouldn't have personally taught BHAGAVAD GITA.
Please read Srila Prabhupada's books. All your queries will be solved.HARI BOL...................
hare krsna mataji
thank you for your detailed explanation. it was wonderful
However one question arises in the same context.
It might be possible that while we are serving Lord Shri Krishna in the vaikuntha lok we might have the same thought of enjoying things independently and fall back again to material world. Is that possible?
Hare Krishna Mataji. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not Mataji . tell me Prabhu Bhai................:)
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It might be possible that while we are serving Lord Shri Krishna in the vaikuntha lok we might have the same thought of enjoying things independently and fall back again to material world. Is that possible?*/
Yes it is possible. Once for a second if we forget Krishna we comes under clutches of maya. Actually we are MARGINAL POTENCY or Tathastha Shakti of Krishna. So we always have a tendency to forgetting Krishna's spiritual energy "Yogamaya" and become Conscious of HIS material energy "Mahamaya" . So our position is not independent in any condition whether in Spiritual world or in Material world. So we have to always be in the consciousness of Krishna to be in Vaikuntha for ever.
Your aspiring Servant....Hari BOL.......
hare krishna prabhuji
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.
Hare Krishna Mataji.. Please Accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
This is not my knowledge. This is the mercy of Prabhupada and his knowledge only. Please go through HIS books and lectures all your doubts will be cleared.
Your aspiring Servant.........Hari Bol