Alot of devotees are facing this issue of initimacy within marriage other than procreation which is not allowed. Shouldn't the devotees be trained well by their local temples and the devotees there before they actually take vows of initiation??? VOWS CAN'T BE BROKEN. Its in the welfare of the senior devotees to check that people(newcomers) are trained well b4 accepting a spiritual master and their lifes adjusted in such a way that they can follow all the vows of initiation. Suppose a young iskcon couple(both 25yrs)get married and they have been in Iskcon for just a year, and have both previously been in various relationships outside of marriage, going to nightclubs, bars, cinema etc..how can we expect that they're ready to take the vows without YEARS of practice. NEWCOMERS SHOULDN'T BE FORCED TO TAKE INITIATION... especially they shouldn't be rushed as there's a lot of RAW ENTHUSIASM in the beginning. Nevertheless suppose they both enjoy physical intimacy now (at 25yrs) but say at around 30yrs they both by the dint of their devotional service give up sex life altogether.

My question: eventhough( in the above example) the couple eventually overcame their sexual desires by serving the vaishnavas and by their devotional service + by mutual understanding between the two..... what about their early marriage days when they enjoyed each others company despite taking vow of no illicit sex (other then procreation within marraige).

I think this is a typical case of "MOST" iskcon couples, especially those who are serious they eventually are able to give up their sexual desires maybe not immediately but surely soon.PLEASE EMPHASISE ON THIS AS I THINK THAT ONE SHOULD RATHER REMAIN A ISKCON DEVOTEE, BUT ONLY TAKE INITIATION ONCE WELL TRAINED AND ONCE HE/SHE HAS OVERCOME THEIR SEX DESIRE TO AVOID GURU APARADHA BY HAVING SEX FOR PLEASURE WITHIN MARRIAGE IN THEIR EARLY YEARS OF MARRIAGE.

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  • Hare Krishna,

    Who is the enjoyer? Krishna. .. Who is Jagatpati? Krishna. 

    Krishna is the patidev for all living things be it male or female ... We are all females in front of Lord. Lord is only the enjoyer. Isn't it?

    That is why there is a concept in our sanatana dharma that.. Pati is only pratyaksh daivam.. 

    One who sees Lord Krishna in his patidev and treat him as Lord is called a pativrata naari.

    Similarly.. A man.. too Should treat his spouse as His ardhangini just like Lord Shiva. or Lord Narayan who gave place to the Patni right in his heart.

    marital vows are Dharmecha, Arthecha, kamecha.. mokshe cha naati charami.. It means I take promise in front of the sacred fire that I will be beside you in your all endeavors of dharma..( rightfully living abiding laws, Artha..in good and bad times in earning for practising dharma... kama..I will stay besides you for satisfying you completely in all desires.. .. and also in Moksha or liberation.)

    This mantra is taken as a vow infront of all witnesses, sacred fire and.by invoking all devi's and devatas as witness... both couple take the vow.

    Similarly... a Man should treat a woman as.. '' Karyeshu dasi, Karaneshu manthri; Bhojeshu mata, Shayaneshu rambha; Kshamayeshu dharithri, Roopeshu lakshmi; Satkarma yukta, Kuladharma pathni"

    look at that line.. our Indian culture states that man should treat woman such and such way... Roopeshu Lakshmi...

    The woman should treat husband as Lord Krishna Himself. She should see God in her patidev.  its the ideal way to live.

    So who is the ENjoyer? now? Is it you? or Lord Krishna?

    Don't  think you are Krishna..

    Just think that one who does is Krishna.. just remove the doership and in this way you can be free from the attachements.

    Selfish feeling of lust wont bother you that time.

    Simple fact that .. False ego makes us feel we are separate from Lord. If we think we belong to Lord or completely know the fact that we are part and parcel of lord.. Then you say?>> DO you even exist?

    then who is exisiting?? ONLY LORD.. karta is Him, Karvane wala bhi....Him...this fact you must imbibe into your system fully... every cell within ur body should feel I am Lord's part. I belong to HIM. I am not seperate from Him .. When you are doing any work on this plane.. be it having sex with ur wife also. >.. Then You will not feel it as you enjoyed.  You will think only aaha.. Lord is the enjoyer.. I am just a vessel. He is acting thru me. 

    IN this way only... one can be free from these vices. Otherwise its very difficult to curb selfish lust. 

    Become zero. You are not existing at all. You are just Lord's part.  And that is what Guru ment. 

    If you are able to practise this perfectly then someday you can leave all this or even if you don't also..Lord is satisfied.

    lust cannot be curbed without Lord's intervention by ur own shakti samardhya.( own efforts)... You cannot do anything without Lord's help.

    Surrendering in such a way.. thinking you are nothing ..Only Lord is the enjoyer.. one can become free from this sin.

    Wife should also take her husband as Lord Krishna .. as she should know clearly that.. Who is enjoyer..? Its only Krishna. And who is pleasure giver to Lord..Its only Shrimati Radha rani. 

    What is happening within ur body right now? is the leela of lord. 

    If you selfishly enjoy seperately from Lord then.. its Lust. which is a sin.

    I know people don't feel this all when they become wild.. overcomed by lust.. No one will have time at that time to think about Lord.. some people even think its a sin to think about Lord when we are indulging in such an activity.

    That is why.. its important for us to be reminded always ..this fact. even when you are about to have sex. ..you need to sit and chant for sometimes.. take control on ur self. 

    garbhadaana samskara means.. to think about Lord before you have sex to procreate good santaan ( good offsprings) who can cultivate KC later. both couple have to sit and chant 50 rounds they say.

    What does it mean? It mean that you need to sit and remind urself that You are not the doer... The real enjoyer is Lord and to clear this false ego within you .. You are asked to sit and chant before you have sex to procreate also.

    People rarely understand ....the vows on the first night cermony also.. the brahmina comes and does the ritual ties a knot and chants some slokas.  Well.. no one really knows what these slokas are.. 

    they are just making you feel that You are a part of Lord.. But in reality we must understand clearly that we r not the enjoyer. 

    One person initiated devotee was talking to me .. he was getting married to a initiated devotee girl.. the guy tells me....." we are going to undergo garbhadharan samskara as per shastras..after marriage. then he continues says after 50 round chanting i don't think I will have any mood to do anything later.. ..."  I felt pity on that statement. But I cannot correct him.. Becoz.. ya people are all .. after enjoying their own senses.

    Its okay.. everyone likes maya afterall..If there was no maya.. we all would be in Goloka right now.

    Its becoz of maya we are bound to earth. Afterall, brahma ji also keeps us in maya to cause procreation. 

    Maya is like gravitational force which is pulling us downwards.

    Well.. without crossing and fulfilling all the desires it is impossible to attain moksha or even krishna bhakti.

    Krishna and Trishna are completely opposite.

    So many great sages like Vishwamitra, Jaimini.. and even narad muni at one time was attacked by lust.. What are we.?

    Its okay...until it is within marital boundaries. 

    the thing that you should keep in your mind is.... The real enjoyer is Krishna. I momment you see Krishna in any person..that lust will be removed. It become pure.

    See look at gopis' they were all married but they fellin love for Krishna. They know one fact properly that THEY BELONG TO ONLY KRISHNA and Krishna is only the rightful enjoyer.  In this way they way lost in Krishna... forgot that they really existed at all. False ego completely broken.

    Krishna tells and warns them on that sharad paurnami day to... Please return back to ur husbands...

    The highest religious duty for a woman is to sincerely serve her husband, behave well toward her husband’s family and take good care of her children.( SB10.29.24)

    But the gopi's plead that..they have completely accpeted Him as their husband. They quit all other dharmas.  if they are sinner also they don't care now. 

    Sarvadharman parityajyam mam ekum sharanam vrajah.. then Lord will accept all ur sins and make you purified. They lost their ego that they completely surrendered saying we belong to You. We are part and parcel of You.

    If one sees Krishna as only the enjoyer and leave everything else that is the stage of losing false ego and that time there is no selfish lust. It is only pure love. 

    if you keep enjoying urself seperately from Krishna its ilicit relationship only. Ya then that type of sex is lust only. That is a sin only. 

    Ya we are basically a product of sin. We are here on this Earth becoz we sinned. We should now change our selfish lust to Pure love for Krishna .. Realizing that Only Krishna is the enjoyer. 

    It will take time to come to this platform. We cannot expect this change overnigh and not by our own endeavor ofcourse..without help from Krishna.. Even great sages have fallen for selfish satisfaction of lust. We are nothing before them. 

    Give urself some time to get over this all. or go with the flow.. When time comes Krishna will get you back to Him by purifying you.

    any endeavor to supress anything will only flare up this all..  Well one may try hard ..if he keeps on falling...then by the grace of guru and Govid some day.. becoz of some punya accumalated you can get over this sinful deed. You cannot do anything on ur own will. One cannot lift even a dry leaf without guru or Krishna kripa.  Have faith in guru and keep trying hard.

    The Blessed Lord said: O mighty-armed son of Kunti, it is undoubtedly very difficult to curb the restless mind, but it is possible by constant practice and by detachment.(BG 6.35) 

    Krishna is Jagadguru He said to constantly practice..but He didn't say you can achieve it by restricting sense overnight.

    The word Constant practice is very imporant. 

    No one can become perfected as soon as one learns to ride a bike.. 10 times they fall..the 11th time they can learn to balance the bike and learn to ride it.

    Similarly... It is not a big aparadh. Guru also knows its Kaliyuga .. It is not so easy to control the mind. He also knows the pitfalls on the path. But ya.. He wants you to learn to safely ride the bike. Guru is like a very caring mother..who wants you to learn...the art of contorlling mind.. You can take your sweet time to learn the art of controlling the mind.. Or restrict the senses forcefully.

    One gentleman tells me that he will make 10 kids if thats the case..atleast 10 times he has time to enjoy ..( When asked why you need 10 kids? how can you raise all of them.. you are only having a small job?) he says i will send to gurukul...I can't believe it. That is how lust is. People want to enjoy for that make kids and in the name of dharma prachaar want to send kids to gurukul? is that what your guru wants it? What I see in this case is pure lust selfish enjoyment. Not even having to take up responsibility of raising kids.. This type of people do you think they can attain any moksha or vairagya? Well ... the person says.. I am doing with my wife only so its pure not ilicit.

    The thing is...anything you do seperately enjoying away from lord is ilicit only. If you include Lord and feel Lord is only the doer.. then only its not lust.

    But thats a highest stage of realization that I am not the body I am soul and I am part and parcel of Lord.  I am nothing only Lord is the enjoyer is the highest realization. 

    Sages took many many years of tapasya to realize that fact. some fell back to lust again raised again.. what are we??? we are just mere kaliyugi mortals .. ( examples are Jaimini, Vishwamitra)...and many others.

    Hare Krishna.

    Вкусный блог о шаурме — Почувствуй вкус шаурмы
    • Haribol !!! I'd agree to your reply...the fact is that its Kaliyuga and we all are fallen souls and its gonna take time. But its possible if one is sincere and serious and has Guru and Krishna's mercy. We don't have any strength of our own. Like Srila Prabhupada mentions several times in his purports that one should overcome this sex indulgence and he also says that this is the most "dangerous" type of conditioning. 

       

       

       

      • NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO TRY HARD. AND FORCEFULLY GIVE UP THE IDEA OF ILLICIT SEX THAT IS LUST FOR FEMALES EVEN IN MARRIAGE. BECAUSE EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO FOR YOUR PLEASURE IS ILICIT ONLY BE IT IN MARRIAGE ALSO OR OUTSIDE MARRIAGE ALSO.

        ITS NOT SO GREAT THING FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN AND EXPERIENCED THE LOVE OF LORD KRISHNA.

        JUSt Like Meerabai or TUkaraam.. or Bilvamangal thakur or Haridas thakura ....IF you have experienced lord's love.. You will find this lust utterly waste of time.

        But to become like these great saintly people one must have that much punya karma accumulated in past life.

        most of these those who are joining KC movement .. are joining with all vikaras in them.. aren't they? some are eating meat.. some are drinking intoxicants.. some are gamblers.. some are having many many past histories.. suddenly if you come to KC wont it take time..for purification?

        Ya if you are able to follow the 4 regulative principles and leave all bad things for one year and get guru gives you test in SP books and says you are ready for initiation.. and they take up initiation

        do you think the past bad karmas that they did all vanishes in one second?

        the  Vishyaa ( objects of Senses) are forcifully stopped but the memories of Vishaya are still stamped in ur subconscious mind.. DOES IT NOT TAKE TIME FOR CLEANSING Purification 

        so don't hurry so fast for initiation. take some time decide on it fully.. If you feel you are ready then only go for it.

        otherwise you see.. people stop eating meat and then.. suddenly they start it.. you know a tiger once can be tamed but it basic insticnt is of the tiger only it cannot become a cow ever.

        You will start ur journey of cleansing in this life.. but you may end to become a cow in may be a couple of lives from now when all ur bad karmas and good karmas get neutralized then you can become a Meerabai or Tukaraam or .. Haridas thakura.. in next life.. then your bhakti is steady and ur love for Krishna is real that time.

        Okay hope u get it..  WE ARE ON THE STEP ONE OF SURRENDER. Cleansing is a  step by step process.

        You must be born with complete aversion to non veg.. complete varagya to this lust  from the begning of ur life.

        hare krishna

        • Hare Krishna

          Thank you for your reply's Mataji. They're really practical and inspiring.We don't get to discuss such things anywhere and with every1.

          Btw Iam following the 4 regulatory principles, chanting 16 Rounds, eating prasadam only, and reading SP books everyday. Iam already initiated(Harinaam) for  past 1 year.

          Iam too young to get married now😁!!!!

          I wanted to learn how I can go abt dealing with intimacy once I get into Kcon marriage.Its part of married life but there are so many other things as well. You explained really well, thxs very much appreciate it😊!!!

          Hare Krishna

           

        • Or if you have full faith in your guru and krishna you can finish this off in one life time itself.

          Like that case of cobbler and brahmin story remember the story?

          https://krishna.org/the-cobbler-the-brahmana/

          the thing is here we must understand fianlly everything all decision is in the hands of Krishna. If He wants he can show mercy even on cobbler ..also.. look its all in his hands right.. we only have right to do karma perfectly following nishakaam karma yoga.

          hare krishna

          The Cobbler & The Brahmana
          There is a story of Narada Muni who was once asked by a brahmana: “You are going to meet the Lord? Please ask Him when I’m going to get my salvation?”
      • Yeap its ok if its within marital boundaries. Thxs for tellin this ..... i don't know why but I was worried😥😥

        (thats not the best but probably acceptable position from where couples can work towards achieving the highest standard)

        ... I guess at some point in time in marriage it should be given up. Otherwise I think one will continue to indulge and even towards old age if its not overcome then one is in a very dangerous position. The desires for sense enjoyment pulls us more and more... it kinda expands. If we are honest in our endevours, sincere and serious then Krishna will surely help. How much help/mercy we will get from Krishna depends on our efforts(eventhough its nothing in front of Krishna).

         

         

        • 8149293693?profile=RESIZE_584x

    • 3.9

      yajñārthāt karmaṇo ’nyatra
      loko ’yaṁ karma-bandhanaḥ
      tad-arthaṁ karma kaunteya
      mukta-saṅgaḥ samācara

      Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain unattached and free from bondage.

      Be it marriage or any karmakanda.. all should be performed for the pleasure of Lord ...thinking Lord is only as enjoyer.

      • Ok...Karmakanda(fruitive activitives) binds one to this material world but if we do it for Krishna, it becomes Karma yoga.

        But isn't it true that to do something for Krishna we have to abide by his rules and regulations while we try to please him afterall one who follows the scriptural injuctions and never fails under any circumstance is very dear to Krishna?
        I mean its a journey towards following the rules and regulations perfectly for the pleasure of Krishna.

        ....I heard one Guru say Practically speaking...the more we consider Krishna the enjoyer and ourself the servant, the more we'll try to avoid being enjoyers ourself.We can't continue enjoying on the material platform and expect to execute devotional service purely. It'll be mixed devotion.

        I mean iam no exception to this diseased state but I don't wanna show any aversion towards the rules and regulations if I can't follow it perfectly, they're designed for Krishna's pleasure. As Srila Prabhupada says in "Nectar of Instruction" sense control is the first duty of one on the spiritual path.

        I mean if my aim is to reach the stars I might reach atleast the moon but if I aim for the moon I might not even reach the moon. Likewise when it comes to sex desire... which is not easy to give up our GOAL : should be that .... we're so strong in transcendental loving service of Krishna that we can't even THINK of material lust then we can reach atleast the stage of no sex within marriage other than for procreation.(I know its a very high goal... but this is the only way we can make some advancement towards the actual standard)

  • Sevak

    Hare Krsna 

    NEWCOMERS SHOULDN'T BE FORCED TO TAKE INITIATION

    Newcomers or old timers, nobody should be forced to take initiation. It is entirely upto the individual aspiring disciple. One has to be honest with oneself. The vows are to be taken by individual and kept by individual. Vows are full responsibility of disciple. All others inculding spiritual master can only support and help in this process. Yes others may encourage, it may even feel like peer pressure or whatever, but at the end of the day it is entirely up to the aspiring disciple. If the disciple has even a little doubt, he/she may simply say I am not yet ready for this. If the individual is honest in this manner, nobody will force. It is simply a matter of honesty with oneself, guru and Krsna.

    Best example is little boy Dhruva. Narada muni told Dhruva to be equanimous and not be disturbed by petty insults, it is maya. Dhruva simply said what you say is right and good, but I am incapable of following it. So Narada muni appreciated his honesty. This is what is expected from a disciple. Be honest with guru. In fact transparency is foundation of every relationship. It is as simple. 

    Initiation is the beginning of a spiritual relationship between disiple, guru and Krsna. It is very sacred and should be treated as most sacred by the discuple. No relationship can be forced on anyone, leave alone spiritual relationship. The responsibility of this is with disciple only. A disciple can always say I am not ready for taking vows currently, I need more time to be more stable. Even if one is very stable, there is less harm in taking more time to stabilize oneself more and then take initiation than taking initiation when one is not sure of it. 

    Hare Krsna

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