Hare Krishna ,
This discussion is extension to advaitva vedant theory ,
Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti—"that which exists is One: sages call it by various names
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Siddhartha Prabhu if you look back to one of your own replies in another discussion you made in January 2 you say:/Do as much KC as possible chant many rounds, perform ekadashi strictly, read SP books, make good use of time. Those who go against ISKCON will ruin their own lives./
What a change has happened...
Here's the link to that discussion: http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/forum/topics/image-of-iskcon-and-me...
Hari Bol!
Wow! Siddhartha Prabhu ... Whatever you are saying to Ashwani Prabhu Ji is highly offensive...Never expected that from you...If you don't want spiritual life destroyed ask forgiveness from Ashwani Kumar
Take no offence but some1 here has brainwashed you...he is using you...
True Srijon prabhu
"Just surrender onto Lord Krishna" and see the magic happens in your life.
Jai shree Gokulesh
Hare Krishna to all devotees,
Perfect questions by Night Xion prabhu and almost perfect answer by Dwaipayan Ghosh prabhu, just need some good examples to convince Night Xion prabhu.
Night Xion prabhuji,
You will understand these things only when Lord Krishna will desire to attract you towards him and when you will also desire to know him. you seem to be highly intelligent , talented, learned. Frankly I haven't even read BG properly but still just believe everything blindly(even though I have many doubts in ISKCON philosophy) because it makes me happy,satisfied,contended to serve Lord Krishna( don't know why?).
I just feel for whatever reason we are here for, it is ultimately the will of God at first and what's wrong in that(he is not a hitler).He is the source after all and we are minute particles of him as Dwaipayan Ghosh prabhu has said.
It's like when a mother/father(God) desire to have a baby ( we particles), we come out but then when child grows up and becomes rebellious to father, the father lets him go his own way , like God puts us into illusion. God will take us back if we want to go back to him. That's what I think.
Hare Krishna
The thing is Mata Ji some people can't accept the fact that they are not the supreme enjoyer. They still desire for enjoyment themselves rather than give enjoyment to Krishna. Because they get frustrated with their attempt to become the supreme enjoyer in this material world they create their own philosophy which states:
God is formless
Don't believe in Vedas or acaryas believe what your mind says
Everything is God, you are God too so go enjoy
Yes this is why they can't accept Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They can't believe what so ever because they can't understand 1 simple secret of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna tells Arjuna "surrender onto me".
Night Xion - you have excellent knowledge. Thanks for unparalleled guidance. I never thought my journey will culminate or rather I say - it makes second phase after six months of lost time here and there.
Best,
Sharanagat
Siddhartha Prabhu. Your original behaviour is coming out.
ISKCON takes donation not for their personal use.........................mind it, The Nirmal baba, Sai baba this baba that baba does this......................If we don't give Charity of 50% of our money then the money will be use in sinful activities only. Our money is not ours, only a fool thinks that everything belongs to them.
Hare Krishna Xion prabhu. Dandavat Pranam. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Here my reply goes.........................
"CURD TRANSFORMS FROM MILK. BUT MILK CAN'T BE TRANSFORMED TO CURD" ~ though curd is coming from milk but we can't say that curd is the milk because the attributes we find in milk not present in CURD
SIMILARLY VISHNU TRANSFORMS HIMSELF INTO SIVA TO DO SOME CERTAIN ACTIVITIES LIKE ANNIHILATION OF THE MATERIAL EXISTENCE THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHIVA BECOMES VISHNU. NO ...NEVER.
And This what Krishna himself confirming in Bhagavad Gita
BG 10.23: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva, of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru.
so when some text of bhagavatam praising lord Siva as supreme then we must know the praising is dedicated to LORD VISHNU in his SIVA manifestation. But unfortunately few people misinterpret it without having sufficient knowledge of all the shastras.
Lets analyse verses from Bhagavatam
Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.6.42
TRANSLATION
Lord Brahmā said: My dear Lord Śiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.
Purport by Srila Prabhupada
Although Lord Brahmā had received very respectful obeisances from Lord Śiva, he knew that Lord Śiva was in a more exalted position than himself. Lord Śiva's position is described in Brahma-saḿhitā: there is no difference between Lord Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva in their original positions, but still Lord Śiva is different from Lord Viṣṇu. The example is given that the milk in yogurt is not different from the original milk from which it was made.
"BUT UNFORTUNATELY FEW PEOPLE AVOIDED THE PURPORT OF THIS VERSE, BEACUSE THEY THINK THEY CAN CONVIENCE OTHERS BY TAKING SOME PORTION FROM THE WHOLE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF THE WHOLE AND INTERPRET IT IN THEIR OWN WAY. THEY THINK THEY BECAME ACHARYA........JUST NONSENSE"
The same bhagavatam clarify this matter in other text
SB 3.28.22: The blessed Lord Śiva becomes all the more blessed by bearing on his head the holy waters of the Ganges, which has its source in the water that washed the Lord's lotus feet. The Lord's feet act like thunderbolts hurled to shatter the mountain of sin stored in the mind of the meditating devotee. One should therefore meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time.
purport by Srila Prabhupada
In this verse the position of Lord Śiva is specifically mentioned. The impersonalist suggests that the Absolute Truth has no form and that one can therefore equally imagine the form of Viṣṇu or Lord Śiva or the goddess Durgā or their son Gaṇeśa. But actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme master of everyone. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Ādi 5.142) it is said, ekale īśvara kṛṣṇa, ara saba bhṛtya: the Supreme Lord is Kṛṣṇa, and everyone else, including Lord Śiva and Lord Brahmā — not to mention other demigods — is a servant of Kṛṣṇa
Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.9.16
Your Lordship is the prime root of the tree of the planetary systems. This tree has grown by first penetrating the material nature in three trunks — as me, Śiva and You, the Almighty — for creation, maintenance and dissolution, and we three have grown with many branches. Therefore I offer my obeisances unto You, the tree of the cosmic manifestation.
The Lord expands Himself into three — Viṣṇu, Brahmā and Śiva — for maintenance, creation and destruction respectively.
Not only that the whole chapter of Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 10.88 clearly establish Lord Vishnu's supremacy over Lord Siva........The famous Vrkasura story where Lord shiva saved from Vrkasura
To clarify Lord Shiva's position, the Brahma-samhita (5.45) offers an analogy: "When milk is transformed by acids into yogurt, the yogurt is neither the same as nor different from the milk. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda [Krishna, Vishnu], of whom Lord Shiva is a transformation for performing the work of destruction."
"In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, by Sanatana Gosvami, it is said that anyone who puts the Supreme Lord and the demigods, including Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma, on the same level at once becomes a pasandi, or atheist. We should never consider the Supreme Lord Vishnu and the demigods to be on an equal footing."
Sometiimes even Shiva devotees cite traditions in which Rama, for example, is seen as a devotee of Shiva. This would make an avatara of Vishnu subservient to Shiva, and thus support the tenets of Saivism. But upon closer study Rama's worship of Shiva turns out to be a later tradition, not supported in Valmiki's Ramayana
Hari Bol
Hare Krishna. PAMHO. AGTSP.
A close study of scripture shows that while there is reason to see Shiva as nondifferent from Visnu, there is also reason to distinguish strongly between them. According to Bhagavad-gita, which is accepted by nearly all classes of transcendentalists in India -- including Vaisnavas and Saivites -- Visnu (Krishna) is the ultimate Godhead, to whom even Shiva must bow down. This is not a matter of opinion or sectarian prejudice. Krishna identifies Himself as the source of all material and spiritual worlds (Bg. 10.8), and Arjuna confirms that Krishna is indeed supreme (Bg. 10.12). Krishna is "the God of all the gods" (devesa, Bg. 11.37).
In countless incidents from the Puranas, Shiva is clearly seen to be Vishnu's devotee. For example, there is the story of Vrkasura, a demon who practiced severe austerities and then asked Shiva for a boon -- the power to kill at once any living being whose head Vrkasura would merely touch. Shiva granted the boon, but was soon to regret his decision, for Vrka came after him to try out the newfound power. Lord Shiva ran to all parts of the universe to escape this power-mad devotee and finally ended up at the door of the kingdom of Vishnu.
Hearing the words of a frightened Shiva, Vishnu devised a plan to help him. Vishnu appeared directly before Vrkasura and told him Shiva was not to be trusted. "Shiva is fond of joking and even lying," said Vishnu. "I am sure he is not telling you the truth. He was just teasing you. Touch your own head, and you will see that nothing will happen."
Vrka, of course, touched his own head and died. But the point of this story, in the present context, is Vishnu's superiority over Shiva, who could not resolve the problem on his own. After racing through the entire material cosmos to escape Vrkasura, Shiva sought refuge in Vishnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
To counter this, Shiva devotees cite traditions in which Rama, for example, is seen as a devotee of Shiva. This would make an avatara of Vishnu subservient to Shiva, and thus support the tenets of Saivism. But upon closer study Rama's worship of Shiva turns out to be a later tradition, not supported in Valmiki's Ramayana. Moreover, even these later traditions explain that Rama became a devotee of Shiva only out of etiquette: Rama wanted to become a greater devotee of Shiva than the evil Ravana was, and then ask Shiva for permission to defeat Ravana.
The Ramayana offers many stories about the glories of Shiva -- his destruction of Daksa's sacrifice, his marriage with Uma (Parvati), his drinking of the ocean of poison, his killing of the demon Andhaka, his cursing of Kandarpa -- but ultimately the Ramayana makes the supremacy of Rama quite clear. Rama (as an incarnation of Vishnu) is supreme.
The differences between Shiva and Vishnu should be further underlined. As Srila Prabhupada says (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.9.16, purport),
Of the three principal agents controlling the three modes of material nature, Vishnu is the Almighty; even though He is within material nature for the purpose of maintenance, He is not controlled by the laws of material nature. The other two, Brahma and Shiva, although almost as greatly powerful as Vishnu, are within the control of the material energy of the Supreme Lord.
Shiva is superior to Brahma, who is an empowered soul (jiva), but Shiva is not quite on the same level as Vishnu. It is therefore said that Shiva is a unique living being who merits his own category, known as Shiva-tattva.
To clarify Lord Shiva's position, the Brahma-samhita (5.45) offers an analogy: "When milk is transformed by acids into yogurt, the yogurt is neither the same as nor different from the milk. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda [Krishna, Vishnu], of whom Lord Shiva is a transformation for performing the work of destruction."
Though milk and yogurt are essentially nondifferent, yogurt is a product of milk. One can use milk to make ghee, cheese, ice cream, or yogurt, but one cannot turn yogurt into milk. Clearly, then, Shiva's divinity is intimately connected with, even dependent upon, his relationship to Vishnu.
This is made clearer still in the Bhagavatam (3.28.22): "The blessed Lord Shiva becomes all the more blessed by bearing on his head the holy waters of the Ganges, which has its source in the water that washed the Lord's lotus feet."
Rg Veda (1.22.20): "The lotus feet of Visnu are the supreme objective of all the demigods. Those lotus feet of the Lord are as enlightening as the sun in the sky."
Hare Krishna !! My humble pranAms to the bhagavan and bhagavathas!!
Night Xion prabhuji,
1) Maya is a powerful energy (shakthi) that also emanates from the absolute truth. Energy can be wielded for positive as well as negative purposes but energy in essence is neutral. The Maya Shakthi is always under the control of Bhagawan and thus He is never controlled by it. But Bhagavan uses Maya for various purposes. One purpose of Maya is to let the Jiva forget that he is independent and doesn't have a master so that the Jiva enjoys material pleasures though Bhagavan (the Paramatma) knows that it is not beneficial for the Jiva. Maya is unseparable from Bhagavan but since Bhagavan is the Supreme Controller it doesn't trouble Him. Maha Maya sustains the material world and Yoga Maya is sometimes used by Bhagavan to accomplish special tasks (like birth of the shakthi(daughter) in devaki's womb, transfer of Balaram to Rohini). Yoga Maya (yoga nidra) serves to provide rest to Mahavishnu.
So when we mean Maya doesn't exist in that plane, we mean that confusing/bewildering aspect of Maya that separates us from Bhagavan doesn't exist to trouble us.
2) When Bhagavan willed, the Vaikuntha planets, the ocean of milk and Anantha-Sesha, the holy conch, holy discus (Sri Sudarshana) etc. all came into existence and the innumerable Jivas when Bhagavan willed to experience relationships (the Duality)
3) When Bhagavatham means Maya is barred entrance, it means that MahaMaya that immerses worldly beings in Samsara (cycle of births and deaths) is barred or prevented from executing its power. It is by the power of Maya(Shakthi) that Bhagavan sustains all universes.
4)Agreed. By infinity, even from our material world, we can know that Space and Time are infinite as they don't have start or end.
5)Vaikunta is where Sriman Narayana is - His personal abode where He is served by Mother Lakshmi, His conch, His discus, His bed Ananta-Sesha and other devotees who are blessed to see Him and be near Him and that is guarded by Jaya-Vijaya.
In loving service of the bhagavan and bhagavathas,
Suresh
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