A question many times arise, many hold this opinion regarding upanisads that upanisads talks about Impersonal Brahman, Shiva etc. But this view is not truth rather absurd beacuse the teachings of Upanisads should be inline with teachings of Bhagavad Gita, Vedanta Sutra, Purusha Suktam, mahabharata, Ramayana etc. we can't take just few context out of any upanisads or any scripture and establish any view according to that, a truth can only be established when it supported by other scriptures.
Like some upanisads talks about impersonal aspect of god for e.g.
Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.10): tato yad uttarataram tad arupam anamayam/ ya etad vidur amrtas te bhavanti athetare duhkham evapiyanti.
This impersonalist use this verse to show gos has no form (Arupam). But this if we see without seeing other verses of the same upanisads then we really conclude that god is impersonal. But no , beacuse the same upanisads says
Other verses in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.8-9) substantiate this as follows:
vedaham etam purusam mahantam aditya-varnam tamasah parastat
tam eva viditvati mrtyum eti nanyah pantha vidyate 'yanaya
yasmat param naparam asti kincid yasman naniyo no jyayo 'sti kincit
vrksa iva stabdho divi tisthaty ekastenedam purnam purusena sarvam
"I know that Supreme Personality of Godhead who is transcendental to all material conceptions of darkness. Only he who knows Him can transcend the bonds of birth and death. There is no way for liberation other than this knowledge of that Supreme Person.
"There is no truth superior to that Supreme Person, because He is the supermost. He is smaller than the smallest, and He is greater than the greatest. He is situated as a silent tree, and He illumines the transcendental sky, and as a tree spreads its roots, He spreads His extensive energies."
Now few things to understand here that the upanisads first mentioned him arupam ( no form) again in other verses declared he is Purusha (Person) . So what should we conclude, it seems apparant contradiction , but there is no contradiction beacuse Arupam used for that the Purusha has no form like us, he has no material form rather he has a transcendental form.
Another thing if we accept few verse of upanisads talks about impersonal accept, and we conclude that absolute truth is impersonal on that basis, then what will we answer to those verse which talks god is personal.
Like in BG Krishna saying
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.
BG 9.11: Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.
BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.
How can we deny the verses of Isha upanisads:
Iso 15: O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.
Iso 16: O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.
So shastra should be read as a whole, not as a part, else we will jump in worng conclusion, beacuse if we conclude god is impersonal then we have to refute Bhagavad Gita and Upanisads other statements. But is this possible, that means our understanding is wrong.
Also it happens sometime that other gods name like Shiva occuring in upanisads like in svetasvatara upanisads 5.4 , but this Shiva is nothing but other Name of Vishnu beacuse
27) shivah: He who is eternally pure
600) shivah: Auspiciousness
The both names appears in the 27th name of Vishnu in Vishnu sahsranama.
Again to confirm this Krishna saying
BG 10.23: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva, of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru.
So this confirms That Vishnu is Shiva and not the other way around, thus Upanisad can't say Siva is supreme in these verse , because its simply not supported by Vedanta-sutra, Bhagavd Gita, Purusha Suktam and other verse of Upanisads.
Hence Shastra should and can only be understandable when we follow proper source and bonafide paramapara rather than trying to intrepret on own whim. Any verse from any shastra shoulb be confirmed by Prashtana traya (Vedanta-sutra, Upanisads and BG) . Bhagavad Gita is the basis and other should be inline with this. Else that interpretation has no value.
Replies
Hare Krishna Prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
/We all are aware of Lord Krishna's Penance to Mahadeva written in the Mahabharata thou Krishna's prayer is quite long I will only paste the words in defense of my arguement. Krishna spoke thus after beholding Shankara these divine words:
"The blessed Vishnu said, 'I saluted Mahadeva, saying,--Salutations to thee, O thou that art the eternal origin of all things. The Rishis say that thou art the Lord of the Vedas. The righteous say that thou art Penance, thou art Sattwa, thou art Rajas, thou art Tamas, and thou art Truth. Thou art Brahman, thou art Rudra, thou art Varuna, thou art Agni, thou art Manu, thou art Bhava, thou art Dhatri, thou art Tashtri, thou art Vidhatri, thou art the puissant Master of all things, and thou art everywhere. All beings, mobile and immobile, have sprung from thee. This triple world with all its mobile and immobile entities, has been created by thee. The Rishis say that thou art superior to the senses, the mind, the vital breaths, the seven sacrificial fires, all others that have their refuge in the all-pervading Soul, and all the deities that are adored and worthy of adoration.Thou art all acts that creatures do, thou art the joy and sorrow that flow from those acts, thou art the absence of joy and sorrow, thou art that Ignorance which is the indestructible seed of Desire, thou art the high origin of Mind, thou art Puissance, and thou art Eternity. 2 Thou art the Unmanifest, thou art Pavana, thou art inconceivable, thou art the thousand-rayed Sun, thou art the effulgent Chit, thou art the first of all the topics, and thou art the refuge of life. 3 The use of words like Mahat, Soul, Understanding, Brahman, Universe, Sambhu, and Self-born and other words occurring in succession (in the Vedas), show that thy nature has been judged (by persons conversant with the Vedas) as identical with Mahat and Soul. Verily, regarding thee as all. Thou residest in
the heart of all creatures, and thou art adored by the Rishis as Kshetrajna. Thy arms and feet extend to every place, and thy eyes, head, and face are everywhere. Thou hearest everywhere in the universe, and thou stayest, pervading all things. Thou art the original effulgence (of the supreme Chit). (((Thou art Purusha))), and thou residest in the hearts of all things. They that know thee to be the one that is the (((Ancient Purusha))), or one that is pure Knowledge, or one that is the effulgent Chit, or one that is the highest refuge of all persons endued with intelligence, are certainly persons of great intelligence. After I had said these words, O Partha, unto Bhava, that dispeller of grief and pain, the universe, both mobile and immobile,
sent up a leonine shout (expressive of their approval of the correctness of my words).
And this is not even the complete version of Lord Krishna's Prayer! I guess i need not go further for now./
Can you please give me the original sanskrit verses? I can not accept them until you do so. Whatever you present here goes against the teachings of Vedas, Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam. Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita 7.7:
mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat
kiñcid asti dhanañ-jaya
mayi sarvam idaṁ protaṁ
sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva
O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.
/Rig Veda 2.33.9:
The RV 2.33.9 calls Rudra as "The Lord or Sovereign of the Universe" (īśānādasya bhuvanasya)
sthirebhiranghaih pururūpa ughro babhruh śukrebhih pipiśehiranyaih |
īśānādasya bhuvanasya bhūrerna vā u yoshad rudrādasuryam ||
'With firm limbs, multiform, the strong, the tawny adorns himself with bright gold decorations:
The strength of Godhead never departs from Rudra, him who is Sovereign of this world, the mighty.'
Rig Veda 6.49.10:
The RV 6.49.10 calls Rudra as " The Father of the Universe". (bhuvanasya pitarah)
bhuvanasya pitaram ghīrbhirābhī rudram divā vardhayā rudramaktau |
brhantam rshvamajaram sushmnam rdhagh ghuvema kavineshitās
'Rudra by day, Rudra at night we honour with these our songs, the Universe's Father.
Him great and lofty, blissful, undecaying let us call specially as the Sage impels us '
This Mahamritunjaya mantra is from Rig Veda (7-59-12), from Sukla Yajur Veda (3-60) and also from The Krishna Yajur Veda (Taittiriya Samhita) 1.8.6.i.
'OM. Tryambakam yajamahe
Sugandhim pushti-vardhanam
Urvarukamiva bandhanan
Mrityor mukshiya mamritat'
'OM. We worship and adore you, O three-eyed one, O Shiva. You are sweet gladness, the fragrance of life, who nourishes us, restores our health, and causes us to thrive. As, in due time, the stem of the cucumber weakens, and the gourd if freed from the vine, so free us from attachment and death, and do not withhold immortality.'/
The verses you show are not contradicting with what I said. It is always accept that Lord Shiva is the father of the universe. As you showed The RV 2.33.9 calls Rudra as "The Lord or Sovereign of the Universe" But who is the Original Father or the father of Shiva himself? It the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. As confirmed by this verse:
Brahma Samhita 5.1:
īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.
You see "isvara" which means "controller" are many. But the Supreme Person who is paramesvara is One without a second. Lord Shiva is another isvara who is in charge of universal affairs and therefore father of the universe. But father of this isvara is paramesvara, Govinda. "Govindam Adi Purusam"-Govinda is adi Purasha, the original Purusha.
So the conclusion remains the same as confirmed by Padma Purana(i will post them again):
alodya sarva-shastrani/vicarya ca punah punah
idam ekam sunispannam / dhyeyo narayanam sada
By scrutinizingly reviewing all the revealed scriptures and judging them again and again, it is now concluded that Lord Narayana is the Supreme Absolute Truth, and thus He alone should be worshipped."
vyamohaya caracarasya jagatas te te puranagamas
tah tarn eva hi devatah paramikah jalpantu kalpavadhi
siddhante punar eka eva bhagavan vishnuh samastagama-
vyapareshu vivecana-vyatikarah nltesu nischyate
There are many types of Vedic literatures and supplementary Puranas. In each of them there are particular demigods who are spoken of as the chief demigods. This is just to create an illusion for moving and nonmoving living entities. Let them perpetually engage in such imaginations. However, when one analytically studies all these Vedic literatures collectively, he comes to the conclusion that Lord Visnu is the one and only Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Your Servant,
Srijon I can get you the sanskrit verses but locating that exact moment where Krishna speaks the prayer may take sometime and since I don't have a means of translating the verses like u do, just ask whenever u r available and I shall provide u the source. I don't think the Mahabharata is a text that can have falsified statements in it as its the longest poetic writtin work ever done and I am sure Vyasa didn't compose it to deceive people and such notions r absurd "mental concoctions" There is plenty of proof of Mahadeva's greatness in Mahabharata alone.
Bhishma speaks of Lord Shiva's greatness:
"Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. All the deities, from Brahma to the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. It is of Him that Rishis,
conversant with Yoga and possessing a knowledge of the tattwas, think and reflect. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created therefrom the universal lord of creatures, viz., Brahma. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava? Only Narayana, O son, that bearer of the discus and the mace, can comprehend Mahadeva. He is without deterioration. He is the foremost of all beings in attributes. He is Vishnu, because of his pervading the universe. He is irresistible. Endued with spiritual vision, He is possessed of supreme Energy. He sees all things with the eye of Yoga. It is in consequence of the devotion of the high-souled Krishna to the illustrious Rudra whom he gratified. O Bharata, in the retreat of Vadari, by penances, that he has succeeded in pervading the entire universe. O king of kings, it is through Maheswara of celestial vision that Vasudeva has obtained the attribute of universal agreeableness,--an agreeableness that is much greater than what is possessed by all articles included under the name of wealth. For a full thousand years this Madhava underwent the austerest penances and at last succeeded in gratifying the illustrious and boon giving Siva, that Master of all the mobile and the immobile universe. In every new Yuga has Krishna (by such penances) gratified Mahadeva. In every Yuga has Mahadeva been gratified with the great devotion of the high-souled Krishna. How great is the puissance of the high-souled Mahadeva,--that original cause of the universe,--has been seen with his own eyes by Hari who himself transcends all deterioration, on the occasion of his penances in the retreat of Vadari undergone for obtaining a son. I do not, O Bharata, behold any one that is superior to Mahadeva. To expound the names of that god of gods fully and without creating the desire of hearing more only Krishna is competent. This mighty-armed one of Yadu's race is alone competent to tell the attributes of the illustrious Siva. Verily, O king, only he is able to discourse on the puissance, in its entirety of the Supreme deity'
Hare Krishna Darian Prabhuji. Dandavat Pranam. All glories To Srila Prabhupada
Please go through all the post given thoroughly . This things nicely explained by devotees. Things need to be seen from proper perspective.
Your aspiring servant
Hari Bol
Darien - take a bow! Now I am stumped. How did you gain so much? Impressive, very clear elucidation.
Sharanagat
Mata jee Hari Bol!
Your questions are very intriguing. You are exceptional devotee. Dandvat to you.
Your servant,
Sharanagat
Hare Krishna Sudipta roy prabhuji
Jai ho and dandavat pranam. I have seen you giving examples/verses from BG for each and every situation/questions raised in these forum and it mingles so well as per the question raised.
I had read somewhere that for each and every question/solution in this world/universe, just one book BG is good enough and may be that's what you are trying to convey each time.
But that's absolutely amazing that you can appropriately select a verse from BG to answer the question/concern.
Hope to get a good answer for my question above
Jai shree gokulesh
Hare Krishna,prabhu!!! Thnkx for putting such a nice post!!
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