His Divince Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada told us that who is doing chanting seriously and reading my book i m guru for that.So why we want to go for an sanyasi for taking intiation?
You need to be a member of ISKCON Desire Tree | IDT to add comments!
I am sure you meant to ask that: when Srila Prabhupada claimed that whoever does attentive chanting and read his books- he is his discple, then why there is a need to take initiation from his disciples? If this is your question, please kindly read the following answer from HG Sankarsan Das Prji (Disciple Of Srila Prabhupada) as its a reply to the letter of a devotee asking similar question. He firstly talks about "How we can approach Krsna", then the meaning of "Initiation" and finally about "Accepting Srila Prabhupada as Siksa guru".
His reply:
Our connection with Krishna is simultaneously direct and indirect. Here is a crude example to clarify how this can be. At the present moment I am directly communicating with you by writing you this email. And at the same time our communication is indirect because it is being conducted via the internet. Even if we are speaking face to face, the same principle applies, because even though in a face to face meeting we are directly communicating with each other, it is still indirect because the sound vibrations of our voices are being conducted through the medium of the ether. So in a similar way, when we chant Hare Krishna we are directly connected with Krishna through the medium of the bona fide spiritual master. In this way, it is simultaneously direct and indirect. The spiritual master engages us in directly approaching Krishna. It is by his mercy that we are able to directly approach Krishna. If one decries the spiritual and tries to approach Krishna leaving aside the spiritual master, Krishna will not accept him.
In a similar way that the relationship between a man and woman becomes strengthened when they make a commitment to remain permanently together by taking marriage vows, the relationship between a student and the spiritual master also becomes strengthened when the initiation vows are taken. So, initiation means commitment. It is a two way process, because the disciple vows to always follow the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master vows to do whatever it takes to deliver the disciple back to home, back to Godhead, even if he has to take birth again to do so.
You ask it if is enough simply to take Srila Prabhupada as one's spiritual master. The answer is yes. The only thing that is required for going back to home, back to Godhead is to fully surrender to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. So we must carefully study to see what are Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding accepting a spiritual master and not simply speculate.
The first thing is that he states in the Nectar of Devotion that initiation is mandatory, if we want Krishna to be connected with Krishna consciousness:
"The connection with the spiritual master is called initiation. From the date of initiation by the spiritual master, the connection between Krishna and a person cultivating Krishna consciousness is established. Without initiation by a bona fide spiritual master, the actual connection with Krishna consciousness is never performed."--from Nectar of Devotion Introduction
The next point is that Srila Prabhupada told us on 28 May of 1977 in Vrindavan that those persons who get initiated after his disappearance would become his grand disciples, i.e. the disciples of his disciples.
Prabhupada: They're his disciple. Tamala Krishna: They're his disciple. Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple. Satsvarupa: Yes. Tamala Krishna: That's clear. Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concern... Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.
And to make this point even more clear Srila Prabhupada stated on 18 October 1977, just days before his departure from this world, that because of his diseased condition he would stop initiating disciples and only resume doing so if he recovered his health, which he did not. He specifically ordered one of his disciples to initiate a Bengali gentleman as his own disciple. He directly states that he has deputed his disciples to accept disciples.
Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York? Tamala Krishna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury. Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm? Tamala Krishna: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him. Tamala Krishna: Yes. Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there? Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list. Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right? Tamala Krishna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not? Giriraja: It's clear. Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names? Tamala Krishna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: And if by Krishna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good. Giriraja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.
So it is very clear from Srila Prabhupada's instructions that anybody who wants to accept Srila Prabhupada as his spiritual authority must seek out a disciple of Srila Prabhupada from whom he will accept initiation.
People who argue that they will only accept Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master are not in fact accepting Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master because they are not following his instructions. They argue that it is okay to take initiation from a spiritual master who is not physically present. But if this were the case, we could all take initiation from Krishna and become the Godbrothers of Lord Brahma. Throughout the entirety of Vaisnava history devotees have accepted initiation from a spiritual master who is physically present. This is the exact same system that is taught to us by Srila Prabhupada. Devotees who advocate this philosophy that one can now become the initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada were not personally trained by Srila Prabhupada and are immature and imperfect in their philosophical understanding. The point is that the spiritual master has to be present to say, "Yes, I will accept this person as my disciple." We cannot force ourselves on a spiritual master. He must openly agree to a specific person as his disciple.
Regarding who we accept as the highest, our system is that we accept Krishna as the highest because He is the source of everything. The line of disciplic succession begins with Krishna. The previous acharyas are always accepted by everyone in the line of disciplic succession as being higher because we are nothing but the humble servants of the previous acharyas. And certainly no one compete with Srila Prabhupada's position as the most empowered Vaisnava acharya in the history of the universe.
No one can ever take over Srila Prabhupada's position because he is ISKCON's Founder-Acharya and thus the ultimate authority in our ISKCON movement. To be a bona fide devotee one must strictly follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
I am very happy that you opened your heart to me regarding these issues. And I am prepared to discuss with you in all detail until every issue which is troubling you becomes fully clarified. Please let me know what your other concerns are. I will be happy to shed light on them with Srila Prabhupada simply wonderful teachings.
Sankarshan Das Adhikari
JAY!
Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki JAY!
HG Sankarshan Prabhuji ki JAY!
International society for Krsna consciosunes ki JAY!
Krishna is the original Guru of everyone, no doubts about it. But Srila Prabhupada is the Founder Acharya of ISKCON because of his mercy we are today able to relish Krishna's glories. Even though the Krishna is the original Guru we cannot approach Him directly so He says
"tad viddhi pran?ipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeks?yanti te jñanam´
jñaninas tattva-darsinah". Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.
Also as you have written parents are first gurus then teachers i agree but what if they themselves do not know anything about Lord or they follow some other religion/faith. They are gurus no doubt but we need a spiritual master to open our eyes. That is why we pray
om ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana-shalakaya
chakshur unmilitam yena
tasmai shri-gurave namaha
"I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance, with the torchlight of knowledge." So instead of disregarding or considering Prabhupada as Jagad Guru, simply appreciate the fact that because of His tireless efforts and mercy we are able to know about Krishna, able to go to temples throughout the world, able to read Bhagvad Gita in almost all the languages, able to associate with devotees like this website.
Replies
Q. HOW IMPORTANT IS THE TRAINING OF BRAHMANAS ? PART 1.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. HOW IMPORTANT IS THE TRAINING OF BRAHMANAS ? PART 2.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. HOW IMPORTANT IS THE TRAINING OF BRAHMANAS ? PART 3.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHAT IS THE WORK OF THE BRAHMANAS ? PART 2.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHAT IS THE WORK OF THE BRAHMANAS ? PART 1.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHAT DOES Go-brahmana-hitaya ca means ?
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
BRAHMINICAL INITIATION .
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHAT IS BRAHMINICAL CULTURE ? PART 1.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
THE SACRED THREAD. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF RECEIVING THE SACRED THREAD ?
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHAT IS BRAHMINICAL CULTURE ? PART 2.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
THE CASTE BRAHMANAS.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHO IS A SIKSHA GURU ?
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
Q. WHO IS A DIKSHA GURU ?
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
IMPORTANT INSTRUCTIONS ON INITIATION.
http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/group/krishnaconsciousness/forum/to...
@Ajinkya kalantri Prji
Please accept my humble obeisances.
I am sure you meant to ask that: when Srila Prabhupada claimed that whoever does attentive chanting and read his books- he is his discple, then why there is a need to take initiation from his disciples? If this is your question, please kindly read the following answer from HG Sankarsan Das Prji (Disciple Of Srila Prabhupada) as its a reply to the letter of a devotee asking similar question. He firstly talks about "How we can approach Krsna", then the meaning of "Initiation" and finally about "Accepting Srila Prabhupada as Siksa guru".
His reply:
Our connection with Krishna is simultaneously direct and indirect. Here is a crude example to clarify how this can be. At the present moment I am directly communicating with you by writing you this email. And at the same time our communication is indirect because it is being conducted via the internet. Even if we are speaking face to face, the same principle applies, because even though in a face to face meeting we are directly communicating with each other, it is still indirect because the sound vibrations of our voices are being conducted through the medium of the ether. So in a similar way, when we chant Hare Krishna we are directly connected with Krishna through the medium of the bona fide spiritual master. In this way, it is simultaneously direct and indirect. The spiritual master engages us in directly approaching Krishna. It is by his mercy that we are able to directly approach Krishna. If one decries the spiritual and tries to approach Krishna leaving aside the spiritual master, Krishna will not accept him.
In a similar way that the relationship between a man and woman becomes strengthened when they make a commitment to remain permanently together by taking marriage vows, the relationship between a student and the spiritual master also becomes strengthened when the initiation vows are taken. So, initiation means commitment. It is a two way process, because the disciple vows to always follow the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master vows to do whatever it takes to deliver the disciple back to home, back to Godhead, even if he has to take birth again to do so.
You ask it if is enough simply to take Srila Prabhupada as one's spiritual master. The answer is yes. The only thing that is required for going back to home, back to Godhead is to fully surrender to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. So we must carefully study to see what are Srila Prabhupada's instructions regarding accepting a spiritual master and not simply speculate.
The first thing is that he states in the Nectar of Devotion that initiation is mandatory, if we want Krishna to be connected with Krishna consciousness:
"The connection with the spiritual master is called initiation. From the date of initiation by the spiritual master, the connection between Krishna and a person cultivating Krishna consciousness is established. Without initiation by a bona fide spiritual master, the actual connection with Krishna consciousness is never performed."--from Nectar of Devotion Introduction
The next point is that Srila Prabhupada told us on 28 May of 1977 in Vrindavan that those persons who get initiated after his disappearance would become his grand disciples, i.e. the disciples of his disciples.
Prabhupada: They're his disciple.
Tamala Krishna: They're his disciple.
Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple.
Satsvarupa: Yes.
Tamala Krishna: That's clear.
Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concern...
Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.
And to make this point even more clear Srila Prabhupada stated on 18 October 1977, just days before his departure from this world, that because of his diseased condition he would stop initiating disciples and only resume doing so if he recovered his health, which he did not. He specifically ordered one of his disciples to initiate a Bengali gentleman as his own disciple. He directly states that he has deputed his disciples to accept disciples.
Prabhupada: Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?
Tamala Krishna: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.
Prabhupada: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?
Tamala Krishna: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.
Tamala Krishna: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?
Bhagavan: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list.
Prabhupada: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?
Tamala Krishna: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?
Giriraja: It's clear.
Prabhupada: You have got the list of the names?
Tamala Krishna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: And if by Krishna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.
Giriraja: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.
So it is very clear from Srila Prabhupada's instructions that anybody who wants to accept Srila Prabhupada as his spiritual authority must seek out a disciple of Srila Prabhupada from whom he will accept initiation.
People who argue that they will only accept Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master are not in fact accepting Srila Prabhupada as their spiritual master because they are not following his instructions. They argue that it is okay to take initiation from a spiritual master who is not physically present. But if this were the case, we could all take initiation from Krishna and become the Godbrothers of Lord Brahma. Throughout the entirety of Vaisnava history devotees have accepted initiation from a spiritual master who is physically present. This is the exact same system that is taught to us by Srila Prabhupada. Devotees who advocate this philosophy that one can now become the initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada were not personally trained by Srila Prabhupada and are immature and imperfect in their philosophical understanding. The point is that the spiritual master has to be present to say, "Yes, I will accept this person as my disciple." We cannot force ourselves on a spiritual master. He must openly agree to a specific person as his disciple.
Regarding who we accept as the highest, our system is that we accept Krishna as the highest because He is the source of everything. The line of disciplic succession begins with Krishna. The previous acharyas are always accepted by everyone in the line of disciplic succession as being higher because we are nothing but the humble servants of the previous acharyas. And certainly no one compete with Srila Prabhupada's position as the most empowered Vaisnava acharya in the history of the universe.
No one can ever take over Srila Prabhupada's position because he is ISKCON's Founder-Acharya and thus the ultimate authority in our ISKCON movement. To be a bona fide devotee one must strictly follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.
I am very happy that you opened your heart to me regarding these issues. And I am prepared to discuss with you in all detail until every issue which is troubling you becomes fully clarified. Please let me know what your other concerns are. I will be happy to shed light on them with Srila Prabhupada simply wonderful teachings.
Sankarshan Das Adhikari
JAY!
Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki JAY!
HG Sankarshan Prabhuji ki JAY!
International society for Krsna consciosunes ki JAY!
Jai Shri Krishna..
Thank you for the above.. that clears any confusion..Jagat Guru Srila Prabhupada Ki JAY!
Hare Krishna Sarveshwar prabhu,
Krishna is the original Guru of everyone, no doubts about it. But Srila Prabhupada is the Founder Acharya of ISKCON because of his mercy we are today able to relish Krishna's glories. Even though the Krishna is the original Guru we cannot approach Him directly so He says
"tad viddhi pran?ipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeks?yanti te jñanam´
jñaninas tattva-darsinah". Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.
Also as you have written parents are first gurus then teachers i agree but what if they themselves do not know anything about Lord or they follow some other religion/faith. They are gurus no doubt but we need a spiritual master to open our eyes. That is why we pray
om ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana-shalakaya
chakshur unmilitam yena
tasmai shri-gurave namaha
"I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance, with the torchlight of knowledge."
So instead of disregarding or considering Prabhupada as Jagad Guru, simply appreciate the fact that because of His tireless efforts and mercy we are able to know about Krishna, able to go to temples throughout the world, able to read Bhagvad Gita in almost all the languages, able to associate with devotees like this website.
Hari bol