Hare Krishna ,
Well as we know the philosphy of Shankaracharya ,
Adviatva Vedanta is spreading all around the world now ,
and specially in India , How to preach in such environment ,
When advaitva vedanta will become a cult in their blood ,
it will be very difficult to tell them the reality , " THE KRISHNA CONCIOUSNESS " .
Please post your views !!
Replies
In the same Padma Purana Lord Vishnu says:
"Taking to these doctrines, all of these demons will become averse to Me in a moment.There is no doubt it. O powerful Rudra,in every age in My different incarnations I too shall worship you to delude the demons. Following these doctrines,they will undoubtedly fall down."
As said by acaryas and sastras we can not understand the pastimes of Krishna and His incarnations with our minds. Only though devotional sevice and bhakti its possible. Just saying because you might think this is funny as you have already said with 1 of my previous posts. And when Lord Rama worshiped Shiva and addressed Shiva as THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE Lord Rama is actually right. Lord Shiva is the Lord of the Universe and the modes of material nature. But who's the Lord of Shiva and other universes and spiritual world and everything? KRISHNA. Sastras confirm that.
As to a inquiry, who translated your verse? You or some Mayavadi or a Vaisanava?
Hari Bol!
Hare Krishna Sudipta prabhuji. Dandavat pranam.
Many times these kind of discussion's helps a lot to understand things though it seems argumentative.
Thanks for your descriptive reply. Beautiful examples.
Though I read this statement (in BG) before, but probably never understood it.
"And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness."
So it sounds to me now that even impersonal form of Lord also comes from his personal form. Meaning the personal form existed before the impersonal form. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thank you .
Hare Krishna.
Hare Krishna Night Xion (and other Impersonalist if any one here) and DEVOTEES.Dandavat Pranam. All Glories To Srila Prabhupada
Jai Ashwin Prabhuji and Suresh prabhuji, well explained. Today's so called non-intelligent pseudo advaitins who claim to be advaitin do not know anything about Advaita. The Advaitin leader Shankara Himself declared several times Krishna is supreme and at the end of his life he wrote Bhaja Govindam. Still the so-called follower of Advaita don't follow him. Its ridiculous.
"Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool! Rules of Grammar will not save you at the time of your death. "
/*According to Siva Purana, In the begining nothing whatsover existed, there was only SADASHIVA (ghosh that felt good lol) SadaShiva=Absolute Formless Consciousess, and from SadaShiva>Vishnu>Brahma>Rudra were created.*/
dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute
"Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day" (Rig Veda 1:156:4)
oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ
"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)
agnirvai devanamavamo vishnuh paramah tadantara sarva devatah
"Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)
"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)
"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7)
"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)
vamangad asrjad visnum daksinangat prajapatim
jyotir-linga-mayam sambhum kurca-desad avasrjat
"Maha-Visnu created Visnu from His left limb, Brahma, the first
progenitor of beings, from His right limb and, from the space between His two
eyebrows, Sambhu, the divine masculine manifested halo." (Brahma-Samhita 5:15)
Above are the Shruti evidence of Vishnu's supremacy over Shiva. Unfortunately your Shiva purana's statement is not in anyway correlates with Vedas. How can we take it as even a pramana.
/*Majority of the Puranas all speak of the Brahman being there in the begining and from the Brahman the 3 main devas issue forth.*/
prove your statement from 6 Vaishnava sattvik puranas by giving quote. Brahman means self , when scripture are saying evrything came from Brahman then its refering that all the matter came out of self BUT the self itself came out of Superself and in every scriptures the superself is distinguised from Brahman by the term Para-Brahman and That para-Brahman is Krishna:
Continuing..............
Continues from previous post.....................
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.
Don't mix Brahman and Para-Brahman. Gathering knowledge from here and there doesn't work.
/*When the ratio is like 9:1 speaking of Brahman being there in the begining what conclusion would a person draw?*/
Not every one can afford to go to Diamond shop and buy one , only a selected few can afford this. That doesn't mean that Gold/silver is valuable than diamond. First tell me the meaning of Brahman and its relation to para-Brahman :)
/*Even in the Lakshmi Pancaratra it is spoken that Vasudeva is Formless.*/
FORMLESS (IMPERSONAL) SUNSHINE COMES FROM (PERSONAL) SUN. ANY ONE HAVE SEEN THE VICE-VERSA?
FORMLESS (IMPERSONAL) LIGHT COMES FROM (PERSONAL) ELECTRIC LAMP . ANY ONE HAVE SEEN THE VICE-VERSA?
similarly when vedic scriptures are saying GOD is formless then it is refering that GOD does not possess a form like us.Because Krishna's body is not made up of matter, He is transcendental. He has a transendental form which is not made up
of matter. Don't take incomplete meaning of vedas. It is very dangerous business.
/*In relation to what I said earlier considering the fall down of the living entity from the spiritual worlds is like saying "Ok Lord I had fun enjoying bliss with you! Now let me enjoy inferior enjoyments in the material worlds! Bye for now!" It is just absurd why someone being alongside God would renounce the spiritual world and jump into inferior worlds.*/
IT IS UTTER FOOLISHNESS TO CONCEIVE THINGS WHICH ARE INCONCEIVABLE
There are two kind of living entities, Nitya-siddha and Nitya-Baddha. Nitya-siddha's are those who are eternally liberated and enjoying with lord in Vaikuntha. Nitya-Baddha's are we who has fallen from the marginal position i.e between vaikuntha and material world. As living entities are by nature minute thats why who are living at the marginal position they have every chance to fall from there as maya is very strong and overpowers them.
So we should not try to conceive anything where material logic doesn't work.
Your aspiring Servant
GaurPremanande Hari Hari Bol
Hare Krishna Devotees. Dandavat Pranam. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
Actually why people easily accept Advaita , Sri Krishna is clearly mentioning the reason in the below verse
BG 7.15: Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.
THE FACT IS PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SURRENDER
As BhaktiVinoda Thakur says "Jara vidya sab maya tomar bhajane badha" means Illusionary material advancement is an obstacle in the path to Krishna. As much as the material advancement will progress, people will more puffed up with false-ego , that would led human society to a selfish, self-centered animalistic rascals society. More they would forget about God.
Actually we are all here because we wanted to be a competitor of Krishna and this "Samaskar" we are carrying in our heart from time immemorial, so it is not at all easy to surrender (Sarangati). Thts why Krishna is saying here
BG 7.19: After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.
So The person is very rare in this Kali-yuga who really want to surrender to GOD. Everyone here want to be GOD, with that conception they choose their spiritual path also, that is why the concept came "Jata Mat Tata Path".
So not every one going to accept Krishna Consciousness, It is whom, those Krishna chooses as Ramanujacharya says in his BG commentry
Whom the self chooses, by him it may be gained, to him the self reveals its being'. This text says at first the mere hearing, reflection and meditation do not suffice to gain the self, and then declares 'whom the self chooses, by him it may be gained. ' Now a 'chosen' one means a most beloved person: the relation being that he by whom that self is held most dear to the self. That the Lord (Bhagavān) Himself endeavours that this most beloved person should gain the self. He himself declares in the following words: to those who are constantly devoted and worship with Iove I give that knowledge by which they reach me' (Bh. X. 10), arid 'To him who has knowledge I am dear above all things, and he is dear to me' (VII. 17).
Your aspiring Servant
Hari Bol
Dear Devotees (sudipta,Srijon,ghoshji and ashwaniji)
Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam.
I am not denying any of the facts mentioned by you. I personally like worshiping the cowherd boy Krishna.
However while I was reading the "KRSNA" book ,chapter 86 (prayers by personified vedas), I came across a paragraph where it's mentioned (pagr 628, last para)
"Sukadeva goswami has recommended that the beginners worship the virata purusa, the gigantic universal form of the lord for those who dont believe that Lord caan be worshipped with equal success in the deity or arca form"
So technically if someone is worshiping the universal form is also o.k.
Frankly it was Lord's universal form that attracted me initially to him.
Also Srijon prabhuji , why is universal form temporary ? can that form be not maintained even if the universe is annihilated. The form can be still there?.
check page 650 same chapter , last para it's mentioned
"When cosmic manifestation comes to close and becomes void when the living entities merge into the body of Narayan to rest until another creation and this may be called impersonal condition"
I am not arguing about anything, just trying to get a clear picture about universal form of Lord (whether its impersonal or personal).
Hare Krishna
Its not a impersonal form of Krishna. Take a look at the purport of this verse of Bhagavad Gita:
"The personal forms of Krsna, the two-handed form and the four-handed, are completely different from the temporary universal form shown to Arjuna. The four-handed form is Narayana, and the two-handed form is Krsna; they are eternal and transcendental, whereas the universal form exhibited to Arjuna is temporary. The very word sudurdarsam, meaning difficult to see, suggests that no one saw that universal form. It also suggests that amongst the devotees there was no necessity of showing it. That form was exhibited by Krsna at the request of Arjuna because in the future, when one represents himself as an incarnation of God, people can ask to see his universal form."
Krishna had showed the universal form to convince non-believers that He is actually the Supreme God. So Sukadeva Gosvami says that new comers to Krishna Consciousness who might have been non-believers before can worship the universal form to strengthen their faith in Krishna. But aspiring devotees should always worship the Shyam Sundar form of Krishna.
Hari Bol!
Hare Krishna
What about my question regarding worshiping of universal form (impersonal form) of Lord Krishna?
Hare Krishna Srijon prabhu
o.k. seems convincing that if our universe is annihilated then the universal form is gone/unmanifested(since it consists of our material world also).
But what about the universal form pervading other universes also.
Are all universes annihilated at the same time? Are there any scriptures regarding this?
I thought Lord Krishna would be performing lilas in some other universes also even when one(assuming our's) universe is annihilated or unmanifested, if we think like this then universal form still exists(excluding our material world) even if our universe is unmanifested.
Only if all universes (thousands or millions ) are destroyed/annihilated at the same time then I can understand the universal form is unmanifested as well.
"O" God this is not easy to understand.
Please help.
Thank you
Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna. PAMHO. AGTSP.
Why Arjuna desired to see the universal form of the Lord?
To convince others of Krishna’s divinity.
Is the universal form of Krishna, eternally situated in the spiritual sky?
No, its a temporary form because it also includes the material world, you, me, others, demigods, everything. But since the material world is persiable so therefore the universal form becomes temporary.
Devotees correctly situated in transcendental relationship with Krishna are attracted by the loving features of Krishna not the universal form.
A devotee only likes to worship the Shyam Sundar form of Krishna as said by Ashwani Prabhu Ji. He is not very much interested in the universal form.
Hari Bol!
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