Dandavats to all vaisnavas,
I have 2 questions regarding to Brahmajyoti.
1. Our original position?
In Srimad Bhagavatam 10.12.33 purport, there is the description about the origin of the souls;
"Kṛṣṇa is the full effulgence, and every living being is "part and parcel of that effulgence". As proved here, "the effulgence in every living being is individual". "
Once Srila Prabhupada denied the idea that spirit souls' original are Brahmajyoti.
This idea was mentioned by his god-brother,Narayana Maharaja.
But in other sources from Bhagavatam class, Srila Prabhupada mentioned that fallen souls in the material world came from the Vaikuntaloka.
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
So, how should I understand this contradiction? Please help me out from this ignorance.
2. Does Brahma-jyoti has conscious?
Regarding to my first question the above, If every living being is part and parcel of that effulgence, then it seems like the Brahma-jyoti has conscious.
Moreover, Brahmajyoti which is the exterrnal, impersonal effulgence from Krsna spreads unlimitedly.
And Krsna has full conscious to His whole creation.
So, my second question is that does Brahmajyoti has conscious?
There is a part of siloka mentioning that Brahma is pure conscious": "prajñānam brahma"（Aitreya Upanishad 3.1.3）.
So far as I understand, "impersonal" means "no conscious" like material energy which is turned from
Brahmajyoti by Krsna's will.
Could anyone solve my poor understanding about Brahmajyoti, please?
Hare Krsna.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada. ＼(^_^)／
Replies
Hare Krishna!
Dear Prabhus - In continuation to 12.1 through 12.4 slokas, let us look at lord's words in 12.5. Why struggle for progress when the progress can be easily achieved through Bakti yoga worshiping the 'personal' form of lord Sri Krishna ?
Bg 12.5 — For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.
2 more slokas to make us lighter :-) :-) :-)
Bg 12.13-14 — One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me – such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me.
Bg 12.15 — He by whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me
All glories to Srila Prabhupad!
Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanam!
Those who claim that from His transcendental effulgence came His body, are no different from those who claim that from His body came His effulgence. In this way, they both swim in ocean of ignorance.
His body and His effulgence are both always existed reality, they are never created, therefore those who speak about whats came first, for sure do not understand transcendental nature.
Whats came first, Lord or His parcels, His arm or His foot, His glow or His body,....are just a topics for words juggler philosophers, who took elevated places to preach nonsense.
Hare Krsna Dean Prabhu
Whatever you have said on this topic is very incorrect. Most of your quotations are selectively chosen to spread impersonalism. This forum is for people wanting to learn spirituality in the brahma madhva gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya. Madhvacarya thoroughly defeated impersonalism and established that jivas are dependent on bhagavan and are always subservient to Him. Even in liberated stage. Eternal devotional service is the highest goal of jivas. Brahmjyoti is not a permanent destination.
In all your responses you have misquoted, mis-interpreted Srila Prabhupada's teachings and are creating confusion by misleading the devotees. This is not going to be accepted. Neither do u give proper explanation nor do u accept Spiritual authority of acaryas. Under these circumstances it is best if you do not respond on these topics of Origin of soul, impersonalism etc because it creates more harm to devotees than good. There could be many more forums where impersonalism is glorified very positively your comments will be appreciated well there. Finally Lord Himself in BG has given his final verdict in clear statements
Bg 12.3-4 — But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable – the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth – by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me.
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Those who carefully read my comments can clearly understand, that the point was to prove that the results of focusing the mind on any aspect of Absolute Truth will bring same transcendental result.
Anyway, this verse above is clear evidence of that and if anyone proves by quoting scriptures such as Bg. or S.B. that im incorrect in any of my comments on this website, I will delete all my posts and withdraw from this website permanently.
Hare Krsna
Focusing the mind on any aspect of Absolute Truth will bring same transcendental result.
This is not correct according to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada
A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. BG 12.5 Purport
the process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Kṛṣṇa. BG 12.5 Purport
Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization. SB 1.2.12 Purport
As such, Brahman or Paramātmā realization of the Absolute Truth is but a partial realization.
There are four different types of human beings — the karmīs, the jñānīs, the yogīs and the devotees. The karmīs are materialistic, whereas the other three are transcendental.
The first-class transcendentalists are the devotees who have realized the Supreme Person.(refers to devotees)
The second-class transcendentalists are those who have partially realized the plenary portion of the absolute person.(refers to Yogis)
And the third-class transcendentalists are those who have barely realized the spiritual focus of the absolute person.(refers to jnanis) Adi 7.102 Purport
Partial realization of the Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman denies the complete opulences of the Lord. This is a hazardous understanding of the Absolute Truth. Unless one accepts all the features of the Absolute Truth — namely impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā and ultimately the Supreme Personality of Godhead — one’s knowledge is imperfect. Adi 7.140
It is not sufficient to rise to the platform of Brahman. Brahman is sat (being), and a partial realization of the Absolute Truth. We are actually after ānanda. Sac-cid-ānanda: cit means “knowledge,” and that is also partial. We must add ānanda (bliss) in order to have complete realization. If we simply fly in the sky, we can’t have ānanda.We have to descend to an airport at some time or another. If we simply rise to the Brahman effulgence, we do not experience ānanda. Ānanda is experienced when we enter the spiritual planets, where Nārāyaṇa, Kṛṣṇa, is present. Paras tasmāt tu bhāvo ’nyo ’vyakto ’vyaktāt sanātanaḥ (Bhagavad-gītā 8.20). We have to enter the eternal planets and associate with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in order to be happy. If we do not attain this position, we will return to the material world. Teachings of Lord Kapila Chapter 9
Thus Srila Prabhupad says that Brahman realization is not the complete realization. Attaining impersonal Brahman effulgence is not the highest state for jiva. It is not the same as realizaing one's eternal relationship with Personality or Krsna and serving Krsna as a gopa in goloka vrindavan.
Attaining pure devotional service in eternal spiritual planet of vaikuntha or Goloka and serve Krsna is highest and complete realization. The way to attain is also given in BG by Krsna
One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God. BG 18.55
YS Bharat
Hare Krsna Prabhu
How should I understand this contradiction?
There is no contradiction at all.
Kṛṣṇa is the full effulgence, - means full effulgence of brahmajyoti is impersonal manifestation of Krsna
and every living being is "part and parcel of that effulgence - Means every living being is part and parcel of Krsna
As proved here, "the effulgence in every living being is individual- Means every soul is a different entity.
In this verse the constitutional position of living entity is mentioned as part and parcel of Krsna. There is no reference to the origin of conditioned souls whether in vaikuntha or brahman effulgence in this verse at all. Hence mental speculation or concocting meanings about origin of soul based on this verse is useless.
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” --> This is a clear statement about where conditioned soul has come from. No chance of any ambiguity in Srila Prabhupada's words.
Kindly understand that there is no contradiction in Srila Prabhupada's words. Over the years I have understood this and appreciated this. In fact no other acarya has given such clear simple teachings on so many aspects of Krsna consciousness as Srila Prabhupada.
Does Brahmajyoti have consciousness ?
Brahmajyoti is the impersonal menifestation as effulgence of Supreme Personality Krsna. It is the destination of liberated spiritual souls that have not attained devotional service or vaikuntha planets. It is eternal.
Each individual living entity within brahmajyoti is conscious. But the Supreme Consciousness Krsna is not present in His personal feature in Brahmajyoti like Maha Visnu in Material world or Garbodakasayi Visnu in each material universe or Ksirodaka sayi visnu as soupersoul in each living entity. But sumpreme personality of godhead Krsna is present in Brahmajyoti impersonal effulgence as effulgence.
"impersonal" means "no conscious" like material energy . This understanding is not correct.
Impersonal does not mean not conscious. We have to understand what consciousness means first. A conscious entity is aware of its own existence. Consciousness is that aspect that enables this awareness.
Objects of material energy or matter are unconscious. They are dead.
Whereas impersonal Brahmajyoti is not dead. The living entities in Brahmajyoti are liberated and know their pure existence. They are conscious of the effulgence. Krsna is aware of the souls in brahmajyoti.
But again there is no reciprocation of the souls in brahmajyoti either between themselves or with Krsna.
So there is consciousness in Brahman effulgence. Effulgence itself is impersonal manifestation of Supreme consciousness.
Hare Krsna
Dear Bharat prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Yes, of course. Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada's comments are the final.
Thank you for your pointing out my surficial understanding of SB 10.12.33 regarding to my first question.
And your answer to my second question is what I want to hear.
I need confirmation from advanced devotee like you.
The Omniscient knows everything and has complete consious to His unlimited whole in Brahmajyoti form.
In SB 2.6.39 , Srila Prabhupada gave us nice explanation regarding this as follow;
The impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is also a form of the Lord called avyakta-mūrti. Mūrti means "form," but because His impersonal feature is inexplicable to our limited senses, He is the avyakta-mūrti form, and in that inexplicable form of the Lord the whole creation is resting; or, in other words, the whole creation is the Lord Himself, and the creation is also nondifferent from Him, but simultaneously He, as the original Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa, is aloof from the created manifestation. The impersonalist gives stress to the impersonal form or feature of the Lord and does not believe in the original personality of the Lord, but the Vaiṣṇavas accept the original form of the Lord, of whom the impersonal form is merely one of the features. The impersonal and personal conceptions of the Lord are existing simultaneously, and this fact is clearly described both in the Bhagavad-gītā and in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and also in other Vedic scriptures. Inconceivable to human intelligence, the idea must simply be accepted on the authority of the scriptures, and it can only be practically realized by the progress of devotional service unto the Lord, and never by mental speculation or inductive logic. The impersonalists depend more or less on inductive logic, and therefore they always remain in darkness about the original Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Their conception of Kṛṣṇa is not clear, although everything is clearly mentioned in all the Vedic scriptures. A poor fund of knowledge cannot comprehend the existence of an original personal form of the Lord when He is expanded in everything. This imperfectness is due, more or less, to the material conception that a substance distributed widely in parts can no longer exist in the original form.
Thank you very much for give me enlightment.
Hare Krsna
Jagad guru Srila Prabhupada ki jay ＼(^_^)／
Dear Bharat prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Yes, of course. Mahabhagavata Srila Prabhupada's comments are the final.
Thank you for your pointing out my surficial understanding of SB 10.12.33 regarding to my first question.
And your answer to my second question is what I want to hear.
I need confirmation from advanced devotee like you.
The Omniscient Sri Krsna knows everything and has complete conscious to His unlimited whole in Brahmajyoti form.
In SB 2.6.39 , Srila Prabhupada gave us nice explanation regarding this as follow;
The impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth is also a form of the Lord called avyakta-mūrti. Mūrti means "form," but because His impersonal feature is inexplicable to our limited senses, He is the avyakta-mūrti form, and in that inexplicable form of the Lord the whole creation is resting; or, in other words, the whole creation is the Lord Himself, and the creation is also nondifferent from Him, but simultaneously He, as the original Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa, is aloof from the created manifestation. The impersonalist gives stress to the impersonal form or feature of the Lord and does not believe in the original personality of the Lord, but the Vaiṣṇavas accept the original form of the Lord, of whom the impersonal form is merely one of the features. The impersonal and personal conceptions of the Lord are existing simultaneously, and this fact is clearly described both in the Bhagavad-gītā and in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and also in other Vedic scriptures. Inconceivable to human intelligence, the idea must simply be accepted on the authority of the scriptures, and it can only be practically realized by the progress of devotional service unto the Lord, and never by mental speculation or inductive logic. The impersonalists depend more or less on inductive logic, and therefore they always remain in darkness about the original Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Their conception of Kṛṣṇa is not clear, although everything is clearly mentioned in all the Vedic scriptures. A poor fund of knowledge cannot comprehend the existence of an original personal form of the Lord when He is expanded in everything. This imperfectness is due, more or less, to the material conception that a substance distributed widely in parts can no longer exist in the original form.
Thank you very much for give me enlightment.
Hare Krsna
Jagad guru Srila Prabhupada ki jay ＼(^_^)／
SB 10.28.13 — [Lord Kṛṣṇa thought:] Certainly people in this world are wandering among higher and lower destinations, which they achieve through activities performed according to their desires and without full knowledge. Thus people do not know their real destination.
SB 10.28.14 — Thus deeply considering the situation, the all-merciful Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari revealed to the cowherd men His abode, which is beyond material darkness.
SB 10.28.15 — Lord Kṛṣṇa revealed the indestructible spiritual effulgence, which is unlimited, conscious and eternal. Sages see that spiritual existence in trance, when their consciousness is free of the modes of material nature.
SB 10.28.16 — The cowherd men were brought by Lord Kṛṣṇa to the Brahma-hrada, made to submerge in the water, and then lifted up. From the same vantage point that Akrūra saw the spiritual world, the cowherd men saw the planet of the Absolute Truth.
SB 10.28.17 — Nanda Mahārāja and the other cowherd men felt the greatest happiness when they saw that transcendental abode. They were especially amazed to see Kṛṣṇa Himself there, surrounded by the personified Vedas, who were offering Him prayers.
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Lets see one of thiese verses closely :
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SB 10.28.15
satyaṁ jñānam anantaṁ yad
brahma-jyotiḥ sanātanam
yad dhi paśyanti munayo
guṇāpāye samāhitāḥ
Synonyms:
satyam — indestructible; jñānam — knowledge; anantam — unlimited; yat — which; brahma — the absolute; jyotiḥ — effulgence; sanātanam — eternal; yat — which; hi — indeed; paśyanti — see; munayaḥ — sages; guṇa — the modes of material nature; apāye — when they subside; samāhitāḥ — absorbed in trance.
Translation:
Lord Kṛṣṇa revealed the indestructible spiritual effulgence ( Brahma Jyoti ) which is unlimited, conscious and eternal. Sages see that spiritual existence ( Brahma Jyoti ) in trance, when their consciousness is free of the modes of material nature.
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Its obvious that location of Lord Krishnas transcendental abode is in Brahmajyoti, which transcendental sages see in their trance. In this way, Brahmajyoti isn't boring place as some teachers claim, being shelter of many transcendental worlds such as Vaikuntha.
Dear Dean prabhu,
Thank you for your answer.
I appreciate your kindness to try to give me some help.
Srila Prabhupada gave us his translation and Bhaktivedanta Purport up to Srimad Bhagavatam 10.13.64.
From 14 chapter of the 10th canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, Hridayananda Das Goswami translated and gave comments.
Regarding to S.B 10. 28. 15, he used the word "conscious" in his translation but there is no specific Sanskrit words related to "conscious".
So, I have to study more to clear understanding for conscious.
I need the clear answer from advanced vaishnavas in Iskcon.
And, according to Srila Prabhupada's teaching, Brahmajyoti is not ultimate goal, or eternal resting place for any jivatmas.
We, all, are hankering the purest love, pleasure and satisfaction.
Only we can actually attain these divine pure love by pure association with Sri Krsna and His associates in Goloka or Vaikunta.
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