Dear All
AGTsp
I have a bit of doubts in the sampradayic differences. Even though we say gaudiya sampradaya belongs to Madhava line , some people have opposed it. But i do have some genuine doubts.
Like for example , we say that the lord had liberated putana and she then went to vaikunth. Even envious people attain moksha like putana , shishupala , ravana. But contrast this with those in madhava line , for exsample Sri Vadiraja Tirtha on what he says about putana , . , Sri Vadiraja gives the true interpretation of the text & establishes the theory of JIVADVAYA AAVESHA. In the body of PUthana, there were two souls- 1. Urvasi, a divine one & 2. TAtaka, an asuric one. The former gave Him milk & went back to heaven while the latter gave Him poison & fell into the eternal hells of TAmisra & Andha tAmisra. He has ably argued his case in 20 verses from 41 to 60 & pays a glowing tribute to Sri Madhwa's school of thought. (SOURCE :https://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/rukminishavijaya-canto2)
Now thats where my confusion arises. Madhva is an authority so is Sri Vadiraja tirtha. How can our INTERPRETATIONS be different ? Did putana really get mokosha or there were two pepole inside her and one went to hell and the other to heaven ? Both cases occuring at once are not possible in my opinon.
And i really don't understand the tripartate classification of souls which sripad madhva did due to my deficiemcy in understanding. I really don't get how nitya samsarins can get moksha . And the concepts of tamo yogins is also not really understandable to me ( because im dumb lol).
And i found one huuuge lenghty debate : read here : https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-madhvas-dvaita-vedanta-consistent-with-classical-hindu-thought-and-is-it-valid.194601/
The ISKCONite here gave tough arguments. But i really still don't undetsand this. Can someone exaplain whether the tripartae system is like the abrahamic concept where some are created for eternal damnation and some to heaven ?
If it is so then some madhva authorities ( READ : AUTHORITIES) gave JIVADVAYA AAVESHA ? Are we wrong when we say putana attained moksha ? Is the lord partial towards some jivas ? ( which is not the case )
I wholly acknowledge Sripad Madhva as an authority .
Please help
Regards :
a sastra-nirakshara bhikshuk
Replies
Hare Krsna
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SAMPRADAYIC PHILOSPHIES
The example of difference pointed by you may not be a difference in the principles of philosophy. It is more like difference in understanding of a particular pastime of Sri Krsna or rather the final outcome of a pastime of Sri Krsna. If someone insists it is difference in the principle of philosophy then, there should be multiple examples of the same.
Srimad Bhagavatam is the highest of all scriptures. All acaryas of all sampradayas accept it. If there is an interpretation that is different from Srimad Bhagavatam, then there has to be substantial evidence from multiple scriptures for it to stand. Lord Chaitanya mahaprabhu upheld Srimad Bhagavatam as the most authoritative scripture among all the scriptures and it is known as amal purana or faultless scripture. There is a reason for the creation of Bhagavatam. It is so that devotees of Kaliyuga, who seek the essence of all scriptures and seek to relish the pastimes of Krsna need not look else where.
Scriptures like Srimad Bhagavatam do not need interpretation. Vendanta Sutra, Upanishads need interpretation. Srimad Bhagavatam directly gives the essence. Qualified people just need to accept. There is not much scope for interpretation. Bhagavatam says Putana was given position of mother in transcendental abode.
Srimad Bhagavatam has clearly stated it in multiple verses, a very famous one is as follows.
aho bakī yaṁ stana-kāla-kūṭaṁ
jighāṁsayāpāyayad apy asādhvī
lebhe gatiṁ dhātry-ucitāṁ tato ’nyaṁ
kaṁ vā dayāluṁ śaraṇaṁ vrajema
Alas, how shall I take shelter of one more merciful than He who granted the position of mother to a she-demon [Pūtanā] although she was unfaithful and she prepared deadly poison to be sucked from her breast? (SB 3.2.23)
More importantly this doesnt seem to be philosophical difference per se. All Sampradayas and acaryas accept that in the path of Bhakti the mercy of Supreme Lord Sri Krsna is a necessary ingredient for success. And pastime of Putana substantiates this.
Hare Krsna
Hare Krishna,
Though Iskcon and gauidya math is a branch of Madhva sampradaya stemming from it. But they don't accept some features claimed in Madhava sampradaya. Chaitanay Mahaprabhu argues with Tattva vadis' who were followers of Madhava sampradaya. The madhava sampradya is accepted to a certain extent till they say. Lord Krishna is supereme Lord and their accepting the personal form of Lord.
Sri Krishna Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu didn't accept that other instruction.
the 9 main instructions and teachings of Madhva sampradaya are:-
--Bhagavan alone is the Supreme truth, one without a second.
-- He is the object of knowledge in all the Vedas.
--The universe is real [satya]
-- Differences [between Isvara, jiva and matter] are real.
--Jiva souls are the servants of Lord Hari.
--All souls are different according to their different situations.
-- Liberation [moksa] is the name of attainment of Bhagavan's feet.
-- Bhagavan's pure worship [amala bhajana] is the only way to attain liberation.
-- Pratyaksa [direct perception], anumana [logic], and sabda [spiritual sound] are the three types of evidence.
If you do the check list. Tick mark side to this list of 9 features of Madhava samapradaya. You can understand why Lord Chaitanaya argues with Tattva vadis' ( madhava sampradaya followers).
Sri Chaitananya mahaprabhu totally disagreed with mayavadi's ideas of moksha and mutki liberation. Serving Lord in love is the main aim established by Lord Chaitanaya.
that is why though madhava sampradya some parts are included into Gaudiya sampradaya and they are Brahama madhva sampradaya but some portions are rejected by Lord.
In madhya leela Chaitanya Charitamrita
https://vedabase.io/en/library/cc/madhya/9/277/
You read under this purport clearly states why Lord Chaitanaya didn't accept some portions of Madhava sampradaya. See Madhavendra puri, ishvara puri and Advaita acharya prabhu all were practising Madhava sampradaya at that time. But Lord Chaitanaya found some defects in it. and said only one sentence.
“The only qualification that I see in your sampradāya is that you accept the form of the Lord as truth.” ( madhya CC 9.277)
From this statement of Lord Chaitanaya you can understand he didn't accept all the features of that sampradaya.
As far as this putana topic is concerned. I read the link you posted. That claims. Yogamaya as Sri Laxmi aka Durga ( which is also incorrect).
Lord has three potencies. Samvit, Sandhini and Ahladini ( all three are internal potencies ).
And Yoga Maya is not durga. mahamaya is Durga. Yoga maya is internal potency of Lord.
Putana has two souls in her body. this claim we don't know. Only Lord can know who is who in reality. All we know is she was daughter of Bali Maharaj whose name was Ratnamala. She being demonic by nature but having some good traits becoz born to Maharaja bali and who was grandson of Prahalada mahraja. She has some good transcendental qualities in her blood mixed with demonic qualities too. So that made her make a wish to breast feed the young Vamana brahmina vatu with her milk and later coming to know that this Vamana was indeed an avatar of Vishnu the demon slayer immediately changed her mind and wished to breast feed him with poisioned milk.
As per her demonic wish she got next birth as putana. ( see a demon putana) itself was suffering from curse of wishing to kill Vishnu. If she really wished nice for Lord Vamana she would got a good birth. But she got an asura birth and paying for the sinful wish she asked. She was demon daughter again born as demon only. This time her wish was fulfilled in dwapar yug by Lord and her demonic qualities was removed by Lord and she attained Motherly status just like Yashodha mata.
I don't know if she got mukti or moksha. She attained motherly status. Ultimately, although Pūtanā had desired to kill Kṛṣṇa, she attained the Lord’s abode.( SB 10.6)
which abode is not mentioned. If she gets motherly status then she surely will get goloka. I don't think among 5 types of mukti mentioned there is something called maternal prema.
5 mukti types are 1.Sāyujya-mukti. 2. Sālokya-mukti. 3.Sārūpya-mukti. 4– Sāmīpya-mukti. 5 – Sārṣṭi-mukti.
If she attained Lord's abode is given in SB 10.6 and being said she got the status of mother. Which category of mukti it will fall into?
Salokya Mukti? or Samipya Mukti? or goloka because of motherly status being awarded by Lord.
So many things we don't know we cannot dissect things like this and apply our intellect and give rational reasoning.
Whatever we have in hand right now. doing our karma perfectly., doing nishkaam bhakti perfectly, doing chanting, reading scriptures, chanting and devotional serivce, kritana praising Lord. This is all we have in our hands .. How we may get mukti or moksha its the result of the karma. It is under Lord's control. We need not rake our head on this much.
Hare Krishna.
I don't know If I am wrong somewhere maybe the gaudiya vaishnavas may want to reply more and add more to this topic. I am a Sri Vaishnava and I read SP books so I know what SP wrote in his books thats all. I cannot go much more deep into this topic. I don't know so many things I am understanding one important this that Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu has pointed that Bhakti is above all the sampradayas. Serving Lord with Love is most fundamental basic thing Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu established and He gives krishna prema freely to all. He didn't accept any Varna ashrama dharama and any tattva vaadis' He said so clearly in the CC madhya. It makes me realize one thing above all sampradaya is Humanity and Humanity and selfless service to God overrides all qaulifications.
After understand Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu's teaching I came to this conculsion.
Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted to point out to the Tattvavādī ācārya, who belonged to the Madhvācārya-sampradāya, that the general behavior of the Tattvavādīs did not favor pure devotional service, which must be devoid of the taints of fruitive activity and speculative knowledge. As far as fruitive activity is concerned, the contamination is the desire for elevation to a higher standard of life, and for speculative knowledge the contamination is the desire to merge into the existence of the Absolute Truth. The Tattvavāda sampradāya of the Madhvācārya school sticks to the principle of varṇāśrama-dharma, which involves fruitive activity. Their ultimate goal (mukti) is simply a form of material desire. A pure devotee should be free from all kinds of material desire. He simply engages in the service of the Lord. Nonetheless, Caitanya Mahāprabhu was pleased that the Madhvācārya-sampradāya, or the Tattvavāda sampradāya, accepted the transcendental form of the Lord. This is the great qualification of the Vaiṣṇava sampradāyas. ( https://vedabase.io/en/library/cc/madhya/9/277/)
So clearly stated by Lord that he cares for nothing but pure love for Krishna and gives that highest ranking above all. That is the reason why he spread krishna name to all not even considering varna and ashrama dharma.
After coming to a certain level we must leave everything and just hold to serving Lord.
I am so much attracted to Gauranga Mahaprabhu and Nityanada prabhu they made me realize audarya bhava. Audarya bhava is selfless surrender. selfless giving. finally every thing should end in that. So beautiful Gauranga so beautiful Nitaai teaching is.
Hare Krishna.
See there are many acharyas and goswami's who joined Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sankirtan yajna and changed their lines and out of them were Advaita acharya prabhu who completely had surrendered to Sri Chaitanaya ( though he was a actually belonging to Madhava sampradaya to start with), Madhavendra puri and Ishvara puri also belonged to Madhava sampradaya. Advaita Acharaya's guru was Sri Madhavendra Puri ji. and you know Ishvara puri ji who met Chaitanya mahaprabhu and gave him gopal mantra to be chanted. He thus became mantra initiation guru to Sri Chaitanya.
Next is Kevasa Bharati ji who was Sanyasa initiation guru of Sri Krishna Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu but you know Keshava Bharati basically a Advaita follower but he took ( ~~smiles) sanyasa diksha mantra instruction from CMP to be given back to Him into HIS ear. See. Lord is giving mantra instruction to HIS own guru Keshava Bharati to be given to back to Him again into HIS ear.
Look out of the 6 goswami's one of them is Gopal Bhatta Goswami ji who was Sri Vaishnava intiated but he also turned and surrendered to Sri Krishna Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu. Some of them who had this good forturne accepted Sri Chaitanaya's sankirtan movement and become completely surrendered to HIM. Even tho they belonged to different other sampradayas.
We must notice one important thing is above all sampradayas is God. To follow what Krishna said is our main idea.
Hare Krishna.