Somehow i came across some shiv puran pages in internet that vishnu had to meditate for thousands of years and worshipped very intensely to lord shiva to grant him the sudarshan chakra. I dont understand the significance of this. How does it prove that vishnu is superior to lord shiva. i am very much confused and seems to be lost in my concept of supremacy of krishna. kindly help me understand this my dear devotees of lord krishna.
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the other day i gave a pen to a coworker;
i gave her the pen; the origin of the pen is not myself, i did neither create the pen; i simply was the previous owner;
if i gave her the pen, does it make me superior to give her the pen?
Krishna received chakra from parashuram
vishnu in another incarnation received it from shiva...
therefore parashuram > krishna?
and then, mother gave birth to me, therefore mother is superior to me?
without a doubt that the lord likes all devotees alike; whether they love him or love another god;
Truth is never overcome by evil or lies, even though the outer world may momentarily show such occurrences.
i appreciate your message which is kind and friendly to devotees of Lord Shiva.
without a doubt that the Lord Shiva feels very positive for other devotees of Lord Krishna since he himself enjoys krishn'as leelas, in whichever way they relate to him.
also prabhu, those that distort truth under compulsion by inner desires or bhakti don't deserve hell, they are already in the limitation given by their flamboyant and fiery faith/breath... in due time, they will apologize as they find themselves exhausted under the weight of their own particles of infinite consciousness and eventually see themselves as Lord Shiva Himself sees himself, with Krishna or without Krishna.
it is indeed sad to see people here be "angry" with such great beings as Lord Shiva on the basis of a simple story, but looking at them, it seems to me that they feel that the Supremacy of Lord Krishna is at stake, when it is not.
by virtue that they don't understand God beyond what they feel in their hearts, they have no place for resolution or calmness, its like the Spanish Inquisition; if you didn't believe in Jesus, they would burn you, after they tortured you; and they thought they were perfectly rightful about it.
ironically so; the same "devotees" of Lord Krishna who are so belligerent about Krishna being the BEST TOP MOST SUPREME AMONG THE SUPREME, are typically less Krishna conscious than Lord Mahadev himself.
that is in my opinion a trick and play of life.
people forget that they know nothing of Lord Krishna... they believe because they are part of IKCON they know Krishna, when in truth they know NOTHING about Krishna. the same arrogance which pervades the mind in a violent way like a tidal wave removes the good thoughts and inclinations which rest calmly on a sea at rest. the sea of their minds is cruel in speech and consideration.
JAI SHRI RAM! Who spoke that ? Lord Hanuman! An incarnation of Lord Shiva.
People should be ashamed that they called Vishnu's greatest devotee anything lesser than their own Guru. One should learn from Lord Shiva's incarnations how to be a true devotee.
i will give u my experiential rapport with the discus;
the discus is like a membrane or an outer shell of the higher consciousness; it is portrayed by humans in reference to vishnu because vishnu is like the protector who englobes all and is all pervading, like the egg shell.
it is said that the discus of shri hari is given to him by unlimited consciousness who is understood to be God or Lord Shiva.
This discus also has unlimited spikes that revolve around the discus, "almost like sharp teeth", but really like sharp diamonds, each represents a different personality within the godhead;
the discus rotates around index finger of lord hari to protect the finger and by its action to demonstrate that all things rotate around the will of god; which is indicated by Lord Hari.
different humans and different avatars have obtained discus in the past; not necessarily narayan discus, discus is just a weapon like sword or bow when used to kill, when used for dharma, discus is absolute as a weapon; that discus is perhaps a different type of discus and why people call them "Divine Weapons", typically manifesting NOT under direct but under Divine Will: example:
there are 2 discus one same individual may call; the discus that he obtains trough mantra meditation and tapas; and the discus which God gives him. one should then remember how lord vishnu received discus by performing puja; Dear Vishnu wasn't planning on getting discus, he just performed pooja and Shiva reciprocated.
then as well, those are 2 different discus; God who is free in All does not need authorization; something simpler would be to end someones life by heart attack; although humans don't see these things and natural diseases as divinely oriented anymore; unlike they did in the past; such things are pure interpretations viewpoints as of today.
you are speaking or asking a question within a community wherein many members want to see things in a particular way rather than how things may or may not have happened; what i mean is the following. and vice versa as well.
where do you find the story of how Lord Vishnu obtained sudarshana? obviously not in bhagavad gita as it is. therefore its useless to compare 2 different authors (prabhupada with the person who initiated the story on how Vishnu obtained sudarshan from Shiva).
also which Shiva are u talking about prabhu? do you know that some shiviites think that Shiva doesn't incarnate? The Pure Absolute consciousness cannot diversity or manifest anything as it is so simple and pure that it exists almost while proving that nothing else exists; even this conversation...
is that the shiva we are talking about? or ar u talking about a Shiva who walks with legs and feet and has 2 arms and sleeps, takes birth and dies and later reincarnates for leela?
also prabhu when comparing supremacy; why do u question supremacy of Lord krishna on basis of a weapon? Krishna didn't give birth to himself, all his life long his mother was his superior, same for his father. Keep things in perspective prabhu otherwise the flamboyant messages "flowery words of the vedas" will lose you to the message. lord krishna had many opulences, and was accepted as supreme only by a minute set of people even in those days. even after performing great miracles.
consider someone staring at a painting where the colors are so beautiful that he fails to realize (as he is caught in the beautiful display of colors and arrangements which seem so real) that he was looking at a picture of himself dying and thus that person fails to intervene in the prophetic vision.
tell u something too prabhu; i have flown in the cosmos in the vishnu form with sudarshan in index finger all the way to other planet, only to arrive there and decapitate a mountain with the discus.
in my practical opinion vishnu is like a "mode" of the inner sanctum; it does not make a person supreme, Vishnu is supreme regardless of the individual, and Vishnu is understood to be equally everywhere....
Now, that one person may be able to veinculate that Spirit in all his actions everyday of his life, THAT's unique, and celestial driven.
It's like that other devotee who mentions that Krishna only incarnates in India.
Supremacy is always subject to comparison; if you say you are supreme, then you mean that everything else is not supreme; that's the opposite message of the krishna consciousness as provided by Krishna to Arjun
Krishna taught arjun how to become impartial and become yogi or devotee; according to arjuna's capacity. teachings that bring men and women to a celestial and universal platform are considered supreme in nature. just like godly men speak of God.
Sudarshana and Shiva are stories which revolve around the lives of humans.
Humans are not perfect.
Lord Krishna was not less Lord Krishna before or without the Sudarhsan question or weapon.
you see prabhu, take away all that you know of Lord Krishna and tell me what is left?
Lord Krishna is left.
Your and my knowledge are but frontiers in our evaluation of things, and Lord Krishna was but a man that lived, and an avatar of God according to his circumstances.
Countless times has lord krishna incarnated in countless ways that people of the community call leela or past times. all of them with their particularities, also in the future will prabhu krishna incarnate again; to be known or ignored by his peers and loved ones. with or without the sudarshana
you see devotee, if you die this very second, what can i know about you? you tell me! absolutely nothing. likewise, of krishna we really know nothing at all; we know but very little!
krishna the man vs krishna's soul;
within the realm of human existence, Krishna was great because of what he did and who he was; thus considered as Supreme because he was of sorts "too good" for the people of his age.
Supremacy of Krishna is also spoken of today where society is even more decrepit than back then.
Thus, people who say krishna is superior to this or that, don't really have a feel for the understanding of the bhagavatist religion which promotes that lord krishna is everywhere as everything. If they honestly believed such a thing they would simply tell u,
It is God in Shiva who decided to give Vishnu sudarshan; and that God is no other than Krishna. this is not circular thinking, it is projection of the outer in a description of the inner. it is like saying, extra-terrestrials, eat, poop, pee, breathe, and take birth and die in 100 years because we do so as well and all we have to compare is the realm of our knowledge.
the realm of human knowledge is the limitation of the understanding of the supremacy of both Krishna and Vishnu, and Lord Shiva if u may even go as far as to compare that. By virtue that people cannot describe which Shiva gave Vishnu the sudarshan, then there is no point in even going through such an lengthy debate as people have done in the past.
Whivh Shiva gave Sudarshan to which Vishnu? (look in youtube how Lord Krishna received sudarshan from parashuram!), get it? Vishnu receiving discus from another Vishnu avatar.
or you may go to other videos where after puja, vishnu in a human form obtains it form mahadev shiva.
countless times the lord takes birth, countless times he obtains discus, countless times, the lord dies, and takes rebirth later, and yet, none of these things speak 1 word of the true Supremacy of which we attest only in silence.
Shiva as pure consciousness or Vishnu as the all pervading one?
Shiva as an incarnation or Krishna as an incarnation?
Which did they mean and when.
Thats really a wonderful reply dear dean ji..I am fully convinced now that lord krishna does many difficult-to-understand things as part of his leela and pastimes. He is the director of this entire cosmic manifestation in both material and spiritual universes..and lord shiva must be very dear to krishna/vishna, hence must have given him a chance to serve the lord by making him offer sudarshan chakra to him. Oh Krishna, please kindly bestow mercy upon ur devotees so that they can understand u better and as it is.. hare krishna..he is so kind that he offered to become a charioteer or driver of another great devotee arjuna. he allowed yashoda to beat him several times as a small child, etc,etc.
Very True Prabhu.. We should not offend a devotee like shiva !!
Yes, Krishna's statement that " There is no truth superior to me " is the ultimate authentic statement which is indisputable. So he is the god of everyone, including shiva, brahma, durga, parvati, etc, etc. So this statement clears all the doubts and delusions..which arjuna tells to krishna.." mohar nashta, smritir labhya'..all delusions and illusions are destroyed, and the memory of krishna's greatness restored.
I too am very much convinced by the krishna's teachings in bhagavad gita and also the undisputable facts in the very authentic scripture srimad bhagavatam written by krishna's incarnation, vyasa bhagavan. As said by you, it must have been mentioned in shiv puran to please and satisfy shiva's devotees who think shiva is most supreme. Infact if shiva is most supreme, why should he meditate on someone, that's lord vishnu, and why should he approach vishnu to save himself from bhasmasura or another demon, Vrikasura. Also Krishna and other incarnations have always killed the several demons who were given very big boons by shiva. Moreover, the greatest spiritual science, bhagavad gita was spoken by krishna but not shiva. also shiva explains the utmost importance of bhagavad gita to parvati in gita mahatyam in srimad bhagavatam. Also shiva gets highly illusioned and tempted seeing the very beautiful Mohini avatar of Vishnu/krishna. So he is also under the maya/illusion of krishna. These facts prove beyond any doubt that shiva is subservient to krishna which is also mentioned in brahma samhita that shiva is bit adulterated form or avatar of krishna just like curd which comes from milk. thanks for the wonderful explanation and discussion which has cleared my doubts.
I also heard that the sudarsan cakra that vishnu has was shiva's cakra. But I dont know in which scripture this is written.
Please can any one clarify.
Its mentioned in shiva puran, which was written by a sage romaharshana or lomaharsana, who, i think happens to be the son or disciple of vyasa bhagavan..May be there is some inner significance or other explanation for this statement about sudarshan chakra.or may be it is written to please shiva's devotees who are mostly in the mode of ignorance.
Ambarisa Maharaja once offered prayers to the Lord's Disc weapon.
Srimad Bhagavatam Ninth Canto Chapter 5 Text 4
Translation: O most favorite of Acyuta, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, you have thousands of spokes, O master of the material world, destroyer of all weapons, original vision of the Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto you. Kindly give shelter and be auspicious to this brahmana.