HARE KRISHNA ALL,
i am devotee of lord krishna. i joined ISKCON last year in april and i am daily chanting 16 rounds and following all 4 regulative principals.
i have one my close relative who is christian.
she said your bhagwad geeta is based on violence. she said if krishna is supreme god then why he could not stop war and death of so many innocent people ???
god only love peace n happiness n welfare and happiness of all living entities.so why killing of so many people ?
so why there was war in battlefield of kurukshetra ??
kauravas could have been right also. who knows ???// ( my freind says please )
she said how u can believe something which is only written in a book by srila prabhupad n not have some prove based on facts?
there could have been peace all over the world bcos of krishna unlimited potencies if he is supreme.
please advance devotees reply.
Krishnas plan was executed and people died.....but Krishna said who ever died on Kurukshetra came back to him.
Hare krsna !!
All glories to srila prabhupada
All glories to sri Guru and Gauranga !!
I noticed some good debate going on. I appreciate the opinions of every devotee here. I sincerely beg everybody to read my humble post neutrally from a learning mood with a smile on your face, but not with a challenging mood. Our most beloved lord sri krishna had given us infinitely sweet statements like Rasagullas in the bhagavat gita. Its like krishna's sons ( the devotees who are engaged in debate here) are doing something like ...everybody is holding a rasagulla statement from the gita and glorifying it wonderfully and quarelling like children. ( iam just a bit humorous my dear wonderful devotees ! Dont get offended at any point !). I beg your forgiveness if i am offending you.
Coming to the main point here : our supreme lord had very mercifully explained the bhagavat gita slowly dispelling the doubts from arjuna's mind and clearly illustrated the different paths of self realization and god realization in a very systematic way that as you go on reading the gita chapter by chapter any sincere soul can be elevated to such an understanding the bhaktiyoga is the ultimate path for the jivas. devotional service to the lord is so sweet, but sometimes we are unable to taste it properly because of the fact that , we being the soul are trapped in a material body.
our beloved lord krishna had very wonderfully explained karma yoga, dhyana yoga, jnana yoga etc.. just for the purpose of accommodating various souls with different mentalities to understand god realization. At the last, when arjuna asks krishna's personal opinion, then krishna says that devotional service to him is the topmost and it is the ultimate perfection of life.
krishna not only says that the impersonal brahman is his infinite effulgence, he also describes various opulences in the tenth chapter " the opulence of the absolute ". he says that among beasts he is lion , among aquatic animals he is shark...but we dont take deities of lion, shark and we dont worship them...because krishna says that his two handed syamasundara form is the ultimate and hence we should worship him with his internal energy ( hladini shakti srimati radharani)...various references are given in gopala tapani upanishad, bhakti ratnakara, brahmavaivarta purana, padma purana, skanda purana, nrsimha purana,srimad bhagavatam, many puranas too..
dear subhash prabhuji, the devotees here are trying to make you understand the truth strongly and effectively. dont feel offended. I beg you to understand krishna's statements carefully and then reflect upon them. lord krishna is not only chaitya guru to you, but also chaitya guru to many many many souls. krishna also stresses the importance of guru, sadhusanga and shastras also. Never compare these three aspects as they are equally important. i beg you more and more to be very humble ( its tough to be humble and its also tough to accept our mistakes with open heart). when some devotee points out something, just think about the matter carefully, if you had unknowingly made any mistake , kindly accept openheartedly and its the same krishna acting as chaitya guru in the devotee hearts and inspiring them to point out that He has two handed syamasundara form is the ultimate ( brahmavaivarta purana, chaitanya charitamrta adi khanda, chaitanya mangala ) and its not the unmanifest brahman effulgence which you are stressing upon. our dear god brothers and god sisters are struggling hard to make you understand this single point. Please try to understand dear subhash prabhuji. You should be indeed grateful to our wonderful devotees who are guiding you properly. Please understand with a openheart.
Lord brahma when he was created from the navel of Garbhodaksayi vishnu, he underwent austerities for several thousands of celestial years. Then he was enlightened with the ultimate transcendental knowledge from which he composed Brahma samhita, where he quotes many verses like
venum kvanantam aravinda-daläyatäksam-
govindam ädi-purusham tam aham bhajämi
I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is adept in playing on His flute, with
blooming eyes like lotus petals with head decked with peacock’s feather, with the
figure of beauty tinged with the hue of blue clouds, and His unique loveliness
charming millions of Cupids.
Lord brahma glorified lord krishna very wonderfully, his form his activities etc...Hence if Lord brahma himself glorifies the personal form of krishna so wonderfully so do we think that we know more than brahma to say that krishna is something unmanifest...I understand that its just a bit of misconception which you must carefully scrutinize and remove that misconception with the guidance of exalted vaishnavas, sadhusanga and shastras. You can post your query ( if you feel that you are not satisfied by the answer given by devotees here is not satisfactory) to exalted vaishnavas i mean we have got so many spiritual masters who are the disciples of srila prabhupada. Lets not apply our small, tiny mundane mind to understand the infinite who is inaccessible, but is accessible when we do devotional service with open heart. Kindly open up your heart before krishna and chant His holy name daily. Its certainly true that' The humble and meek own krishna's kingdom"..
One more quote is that " we are not humans beings having spiritual experience, but we are spiritual beings with human experience". we have already gone through many bodies ( 84 lakh species as stated in padma purana)...
Lord krishna ( stated as lord keshava) is glorified as avatari ( the source of all incarnations as stated in brhad bhagavatamrta by sanatana goswami and laghu bhagavatamrta by rupa goswami) by many great devotees like jayadeva goswami ( in his dasavatara stotra), Lord brahma in his brahma samhita, brahma vimohana leela in krishna lila, many gaura lilas...many more ...
Dear rashmi mataji, preetam prabhuji and other wonderful devotees,
I am highly grateful for your wonderful replies..I will get back to the main issue " christian teachings and krishna consciousness" a little later..
yours humble servant
Sri krishna gauranga nitai das
You have well expressed your views on this forum.
Krsna will make your faith steady in what you decide.
It is up to you.
Hare Krishna Prabhuji..
Thanks for your reply. Seems the views which I carry, even though they are what stated in Gita, is not accepted by IDT members. So, its better for me to stay away from this forum than to indulge in some arguments of no use. There are many maharshis and gurus who have spread the message of God. Each having their own importance and not to be ruled out. Following a Guru is fine. But at the same time, you shouldn't falsify other Gurus who belong to other lineage and their teachings. The knowledge spread by them will also lead to the same destination. Just because we cannot perceive their teachings, doesn't mean we can just treat them as trash. I hope some day, the wisdom will dawn upon you.
Thanks again for all your replies..
I've heard from other senior devotees that according to Bhakti siddanta saraswati Thakur that if a devotee worships Sri Krsna accepting He is the supreme Lord albeit impersonally, he is okay with it. but if a person worships the impersonal brahman as the cause of Sri Krishna/ other devatas on same level as Sri Krsna (or) not considering Sri Krishna as the supreme (or ) thinks that the person himself is the supreme God and not Sri Krishna, then all these are mayavada and are sinful.
Worshiping the impersonal brahmam is a rather difficult way to get self realisation since external conditions in kali yuga are not suitable ,many regulations have to be followed and generally very difficult for grhastas unless he has the Lord's mercy and he strives sufficiently . How will one turn off the mind if you have a kid to send to school, talk to clients? rather mind should be used in service. Also liberation does not mean turning off the mind as some people may insist. False ego and intelligence are there at a subtle level and they have to be given up, after that even jnana has also to be given up.
Even if this is possible, if a person says I am God then it is not a perfect realisation because there is no concept of 'I' if one follows the path of brahmam, that is there is no 'I' to tell that that 'I' am God so ideally he doesnt speak, doesnt hear etc. Please see the level of realisation required and the extreme amount of difficulty here. This takes humongous practice, probably many lifetimes.
Finally all acharyas impersonal or personal agree that bhakti is the foremost way. Bhakti to whom? that seems to vary but from Srimad Bhagavatham it is the worship of Sri Krishna. How ? Like gopis who loved him so much that there was no hint of gratification they want from Him. Their position was that, they were naturally tuned to love Sri Krsna, their only use of living in their thinking is to serve Sri Krsna and for whom even if a moment of separation from Lord Krsna was unbearable , like fire consuming them.
And how can one perform bhakti if the person has the thinking of 'I Am God' or 'Devatas are all same as Lord Vishnu' .In no way is that bhakti. Bhakti yoga is the yoga as per bhagavat gita, where Lord Krishna says' Offer respects to me, bow down to me and so on'. He also said that those bhaktas are the best yogis. While He says that one who worships Him impersonally attains the same goal, He also says that the impersonal way is most difficult as has been stated above. All acharyas also agree that Lord Krishna is the supreme, if one does not agree, he is not a guru. Please read srimad bhagavatham from Srila Prabhupada. If you're not convinced translate some verses yourself from sanskrit, it is clear that personal worship of Lord Krishna or Lord Visnu is the greatest end and means also.)
Sri visvanatha chakravarthy compares it to a bitter nima fruit when sweet nectar of bhAkti is available. Also bliss from impersonal brahman realisation is compared to a drop when compared to the Ocean of bliss of realisation In personal bhakti acording to gaudiya vaishnavism. In higher levels of gaudiya vaishnavism, the bliss is incomparable to bliss from impersonalism.
Also in higher levels of advaita(impersonalism based on sastra) , since brahman is formless ,all forms are considered to be from brahman. So the theory so forth is that, since all are from brahmam, all are same. Since all are same,all devas are equal. Since all is same, I am also brahmam , God. This is their thinking, and this is totally incompatible with bhakti since this negates in a way Lord Krishna's superiority. Unless there's Lord Krishna's mercy to make a person still think that Lord Krishna is supreme even after advancement, the person after some sadhana thinks that he is god. Personal vaisnava bhakti is so much more sweeter, than valid impersonal worship (valid - Lord Krishna's energy is brahmam, invalid - All mayavada 'I am God' theories)
please read : http://vedabase.net/bg/9/11/en1
Finally many have come to personal bhakti of Sri Krsna after long spells with impersonalism with its many varieties (funnily not in accordance to its concept of advaita). And these devotees are not just free time 'people. Many have travelled from Japan to the Ganges to wherever full time spending years, so they were serious. But got that feeling of complete satisfaction in bhakti.
Also prabhu, please read Srimad Bhagavadam from Srila Prabhupada as this might be helpful your journey. I have said this only to try to help you in your way. Please do not consider me advanced, for I am not (I am not being humble this is the truth, I may have a bit of sastric jnana (not that too may be ? :) but no bhakti). Please forgive me if I have said something rash.
I request the devotees also to please correct the above as necessary.
Prabhu you have put many questions based upon what you have heard.
We listen from the right source so that we do not run into trouble. The books of Srila Prabhupada is our source so they are not just mere books which can be wrong or right. They are absolute.
What Prabhupada says is that Mahabharata is for the less intelligent. He only cared to translate
Srimad Bhagavad Gita from the Bhisma Parva section from the Mahabharata.
Still the battle of Kurukshetra was no ordinary battle. It was fought according to Dharma. As a result all those who were assembled attained heavenly planets.
They had rules for engagement and both sides tried their best to comply with them.
The Pandavas had to come out victorious because on their side was the husband of the Goddess of fortune.
Thanks for your reply..
I believe both personal form and formless unmanifested because Krishna said both are the ways. Maybe I am just a LKG student so Lord made me take the second way.
Therefore, there is nothing to hate here..
Hope you understand..
Hare Krsna Subash
The impersonal brahman is subordinate to Krsna.
It may not seem much to a layman but according to Vaisnava Acaryas it is a blunder to state vice-versa.
Using strong words is not hatred if they can correct someone.
The reason everyone is bothering with you is we have still not lost all hopes on you. Like Zola Prabhuji said, it is to improve you and tell you that you are very highly mistaken.
Define Godman - someone who claims to have direct access to God and who can relay the message of God. You still say you are not Godman, but you are His tool? I know people who can make believers talk to Hanuman ji on phone and solve their material problems. The rate at which you are going - you are not far away.
You are not even willing to take a stand whether you signed "Krishna" by mistake or by design - maybe the 'tool' concept - right?
YOu are talking of hatred - read your own posts - whether you understand your own guru......, get above this maya, you will understand........ these are statements of love, I am sure!
When someone makes a mistake, its ok to gracefully accept, rathar than to fight tooth and nail.
There is no hate here. As usual, you have missed the point completely. You are claiming to be the "tool" of God, Who is speaking through you. Like I said, He speaks to us through shastra......
Secondly, you are signing "Krishna" at the end of your post?!!!!
If I dont call you Godman, what do I call you?
You are claiming to be an LKG student, yet you have the right to sign Krishna???
Look at yourself in the mirror.........
Where is the question of hate, others are quoting Srila Prabhupada's views on mayavadis the way you are quoting SP. You quote, its ok, others quote, its hatred?