Can you prove that lord Krishna is more supreme then lord Vishnu? and if so how is that true when in the Vedas the supreme lord is called Narayan which is the vedic name for lord Vishnu. Well if Krishna is really the supreme god of all how come he died by a hunter? when it says Krishna's abode what does that mean? why did Krishna let him self get killed wouldn't it be better if he stayed on earth with us? so when krishna had a son and then his son had a son that was also a pastime?
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Hare Krsna
My obeisances to all devotees, guru and gauranga.
A bit more info about why parampara system is the most authentic way to acquire knowledge about the Supreme Personality of Godhead prabhu.
And of all scriptures, Srimad-Bhagavatam is considered the most important, the ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic knowledge.
nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam
suka-mukhad amrta-drava-samyutam
pibata bhagavatam rasam alayam
muhur aho rasika bhuvi bhavukah
“O expert and thoughtful men, relish Srimad-Bhagavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literatures. It emanated from the lips of Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls.” (SB 1.1.3)
This nectarean fruit is passed down to us through disciplic succession. In commenting on this verse, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives the example of a mango tree. To get a ripe mango from the top of a tree, several boys climb onto different branches. The boy at the top plucks the fruit and hands it to the boy on the next branch down, that boy hands it to the one on the next branch, and so on, until finally it reaches the boy on the ground--in the same perfect condition as it was when at the top of the tree. It hasn't been bruised or broken but has been delivered intact, just as it was.
At the top of the tree is Krsna, and He passes the knowledge down to Brahma. Brahma passes it to Narada, and Narada passes it to Vyasa. Vyasa passes it to Madhvacarya, and so on--Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Six Gosvamis, and further down, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and Srila Prabhupada. And now the followers of Srila Prabhupada are presenting the same knowledge. They follow and present the same teachings--that is their qualification.
About Vedavyasa, Srila Prabhupada wrote: “Vyasadeva was a real person accepted by all authorities, and anyone can judge how wonderful he was to have compiled the Vedic literatures. He is therefore known as Mahamuni. Muni means 'thoughtful' or 'great thinker' or 'great poet,' and maha means still greater. There is no comparison of Vyasadeva with any other writer or thinker or philosopher. Nobody can estimate the scholarly importance of Srila Vyasadeva. He composed many millions of Sanskrit verses, and we try to receive just a fragment of the knowledge in them by our tiny efforts. Srila Vyasadeva therefore summarized the whole Vedic knowledge in Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is known as the ripened fruit of the desire tree of Vedic knowledge. The ripened fruit is received hand to hand through disciplic succession, and anyone who does this work in disciplic succession
from Srila Vyasadeva is considered a representative of Vyasadeva, and as such the bona fide spiritual master's appearance day is worshiped as Vyasa-puja.”
Hare Krsna.
Hare Krsna,
My obeisances to all devotees, guru and gauranga.
Janardan prabhu, I came across an article on Shri Gopal Bhatta Goswami. I am pasting a portion of the article addressing your question why Krsna is supreme than Lord Vishnu. Its a bit of a long read but well worth it.
Hare krsna.
Shri Gopal Bhatta Goswami was the son of Vyenkatta Bhatta, a brahmana resident of Shri Rangam, who was initiated in the Shri Sampradaya. The city of Shri Rangam is located on the Kaveri river in the district of Tanjor about ten miles west of Kumbhakonam. Regarding this temple. Shri Bhaktivedanta Swami remarks as follows. "The Shri Rangam temple is the largest in India, and there are seven walls surrounding it. There are also seven roads leading to Shri Rangam. The ancient names of these roads are Dharma, Rajamahendra, Kulashekhara, Alinadana, Tiruvikrama, Tirubidi and Ada-iyavala-indana. The temple was founded before the reign of Dharmavarma, who reigned before Rajamahendra. Many celebrated kings like Kulashekhara and others such as Alabandaru, resided in the temple of Shri Rangam. Yamunacharya, Shri Ramanuja, Sudarshanacharya, and others also supervised this temple.
According to Bhaktivedanta Swami, "Shri Vyenkatta Bhatta was a Vaishanva brahmana and an inhabitant of Shri Rangakshetra. He belonged in the disciplic succession of Shri Ramanujacharya. Shri Rangam is one of the places of pilgrimage in the province of Tamila-desha. The inhabitants of that province do not retain the name Vyenkatta. It is therefore supposed that Vyenkatta Bhatta did not belong to that province, although he may have been residing there for a very long time. Vyenkatta Bhatta was a membin a branch of the Ramanuja Sampradaya known as Badagala-i. He had a brother in the Ramanuja Sampradaya known as Shripada Prabodhananda Saraswati. The son of Vyenkatta Bhatta was later known in the Gaudiya Sampradaya as Gopala Bhatta Goswami and he established the Radha-ramana temple in Vrindavana. More information about him may be found in a book known as Bhakti-Ratnakara (1.100)by Shri Narahari Cakravarti.
The Gaura-parshada-charitavali describes the life of Gopala Bhatta Goswami as follows. The merciful Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, in order to deliver the souls of this world, as well as to distribute krishna-prema everywhere, walked throughout the length and breadth of South India and moved from place to place inundating every town and village with the nectar of the divine name. Drinking the nectar of the holy name from the lotus mouth of Shri Chaitanya Mahrapbhu Himself, thousands and thousands of men and women who were burning in the desert of material existence, quenched their thirst. Thus their lives were freed from the burning of material life, and their souls were cooled. Day after day, the fallen people in general drank the nectar of Krishna's holy name and thus attained life's supreme treasure.
In order to shower nama-prema far and wide like a great thundercloud, Shriman Mahaprabhu came to stay for some time at the great holy place of Shri Rangakshetra. Shri Ranganath's huge and expansive temple is so tall that it appears to reach the heavens. That great temple has seven huge walls. Millions of devotees come to see that deity every year. Within the temple, the brahmanas are constantly chanting the glories of Shri Ranganatha. When Shri Gauranga Mahaprabhu entered that temple and began chanting Hare Krishna in kirtan, his song was far sweeter than that of millions of Gandharvas. Everyone was stunned and astonished, and the hairs of their body stood on end. His divine figure was wonderful to behold, and his bodily radiance was dazzling. From his lotus eyes showered torrents of tears of Krishna-prema. The brahmanas wondered, "Is he a god? Is such a manifestation of ecstasy possible in a man?"
Again and again exhorting everyone to chant the holy name, saying, "Haribolo! Haribolo!" he was drowning in the tears that poured from his lotus eyes, as he fell before the deities like a tree that has been cut down. Everyone thought that Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu appeared like a golden mountain that had fallen to the earth.
Shri Vyenkatta Bhatta, detecting in Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu the symptoms of a Mahapurush, a great personage, could not contain himself as he saw the Lord performing sankirtan. His heart leaped with joy as it became filled with bhakti. Pushing his way through the crowd, he joined the kirtan party and lost himself in dancing and singing the holy name of Hari with the Lord. When the Lord had regained his external consciousness somewhat and had steadied himself, Vyenkatta fell in the dust of his lotus feet and asked the Lord for his mercy. The Lord, saying, "Krishna! Krishna!" heartily embraced him. At that time, Shri Vyenkatta invited the Lord to stay with him in his home during the four months of the rainy season. At his home Vyenkatta Bhatta washed the Lord's lotus feet and drank the holy water. In this way there was great joy within the home of Vyenkatta Bhatta.
The above has been briefly described in the Chaitanya Charitamrita as follows (ML 9.79—86):
papa-nasane vishnu kailo darasane,
shri-ranga-ksetre tabe karila gamana
kaverite snana kari dekhi ranganatha
stuti pranati kari manila krtartha
premaveshe kaila bhauta gana nartena
dekhi camatkara haila saba lokera mana
shri vaishnava eka—vyenkatta bhatta nam
prabhure nimantrana kaila kariya sammana
nija-ghare laya kaila pada praksalana
sei jala kaila sa-vamse bhakshana
bhiksha karaya kichu kaila nivedana
caturmasya asi prabhu haila upasanna
caturmasya kripa kari raha mora ghare
krishna-katha kahi kripaya uddhara amare
tanra ghare rahila prabhu krishna-katha rasa
bhatta-sange gonaila sukhe cari mase.
"After visiting the holy place named Shiva-ketra, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu arrived at Papanashana and there saw the temple of Lord Vishnu. Then He finally reached Shri Ranga-kshetra. After bathing in the river Kaveri, Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu saw the temple of Ranganatha and offered his ardent prayers and obeisances. Thus He felt Himself successful. In the temple of Ranganatha, Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu chanted and danced in ecstatic love of Godhead. Seeing His performance, everyone was struck with wonder. One Vaishnava known as Vyenkatta Bhatta then invited Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to his home with great respect. Shri Vyenkatta Bhatta took Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to his home. After he washed the Lord's feet, all the members of his family drank the water. After offerin lunch to the Lord, Vyenkatta Bhatta submitted that the period of Chaturmasya had already arrived. Vyenkatta Bhatta said, 'Please be merciful to me and stay at my house during Chaturmasya. Speak about Lord Krishna's pastimes and kindly deliver me by your mercy.' Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu remained at the house of Vyenkatta Bhatta for four continuous months. In this way, The Lord passed His days in great happiness, enjoying the transcendental mellow of discussing Lord Krishna's pastimes."
In the year 1511, Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu stayed at the house of Vyenkatta Bhatta. At that time Vyenkatta Bhatta lived with his two brothers, Prabodananda Saraswati and Trimalla Bhatta. At that time, Shri Prabodhananda Saraswati was a tridandi sannyasi of the Ramanuja Sampradaya and Vyenkatta Bhatta and Trimalla Bhatta were also Vaishnavas in the Ramanuja Sampradaya. Vyenkatta's son was Gopala Bhatta. At the time of Mahaprabhu's visit, he was only a child. When the little boy offered his respects at the feet of Shri Chaitanya, the Lord picked him up and held him on his lap, affectionately embracing the boy. Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to call the boy and give him the remnants of his prasadam. By giving him his prasada in this manner, he was blessing Gopal Bhatta Acharya to become a great acharya in the future.
The Lord arrived in Shri Rangam during the time of Chaturmasya. At that time he stayed in the house of Vyenkatta Bhatta. In Shri Rangam live many Shri Vaishanvas. Seeing the manifestation of divine sentiments in Shri Chaitanya, however, many of them were converted, for they experienced the nectar of Krishna-prema. Every day, one brahmana Vaishanva after another invited the Lord to take lunch. In this way, during the four months of Chaturmasya, the Lord accepted many invitations, and still could not honor all the invitations of the many Vaishnava grihasthas who wanted to show their hospitality to the Lord.
The Lord stayed at the house of Vyenkatta Bhatta. Every day, Shri Gopala Bhatta would serve him personally. At that time, Shri Chaitanya instructed Vyenkatta Bhatta on the position of Lakshmidevi and the worship of Lakshmi-Narayan versus the position of the gopis and the worship of Radha-Govinda. The Lord preached these points to him in a humourous style, laughing and joking in a clever way. The Lord said, "Bhatta! Your Lakshmidevi is the crest jewel of chaste ladies. My Krishna is a gopa-boy who herds cows. Why does she want to be with Krishna?"
Vyenkatta Bhatta said, "Krishna and Narayana are one and the same. Krishna is one of the forms Our Lord takes in order to enjoy pastimes of a clever and sporting nature. There is no violation of Lakshmidevi's chastity if she takes an interest in Krishna—he is one and the same with Narayan. This is not in contradiction with any religious principles. Therefore why do you joke with me in this way?"
The Lord said, "What you say is true. But tell me, why is it that Lakshmidevi performs great penances to attain Krishna, but cannot do so? On the other hand, the Upanishads also performed penances to attain Krishna and did so. How is it that the Upanishads succeeded in entering Vrindavan and getting Krishna's association where Lakshmidevi failed?"
Vyenkatta said, "I cannot understand this at all." At this point he said, "You are Krishna Himself. You know the meaning of your own pastimes. Only those who you choose to enlighten can understand all these things. If you enlighten me, then I can also understand them."
At that time, Shri Chaitanya explained that Lakshmidevi wanted to remain in her position as the opulent goddess of fortune in Vaikuntha and at the same time enter into the pastimes of Krishna, where sweetness and beauty are superior to power and opulence. This is not possible. Only those who follow in the footsteps of the gopis and the residents of Vrindavana can attain such a position. The Upanishads succeeded where Lakshmidevi failed because they followed in the footsteps of the Gopis. Before this explanation was given Vyenkatta Bhatta thought that Shri Naryana was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thinking in this way, he believed that the worship of Naryana was the supreme form of worship. Mahaprabhu understood his misconception and corrected it through joking about it. After this, Vyenkatta was convinced of the Supreme position of Krishna and Vrindavan, and converted to the cause of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, although he was raised in the Ramanuja Sampradaya. He offered his respects at the lotus feet of the Lord and the Lord embraced him.
Hare krsna
Hare Krsna,
My obeisances to all devotees, guru and gauranga.
I apologise before hand if my response will offend you in anyway.
Devotees can answer all your questions but prabhu you will have more questions reading the responses. It will agitate your mind more. It will lead to more questions and confusion. Devotees can give direct references to the verses where it states Krsna is the Supreme but why would you believe them. If one doesnt have faith, then no matter what the verse or response or justification given will have no effect.
Due to the conditioned state (with imperfect senses and limited knowledge and intelligence) of the beings in the Kali yuga, Vyasadev composed many literatures to elevate us. He wrote many to cater to many different beliefs that he foresaw people living now would have. Inspite of writing the literature he wasnt happy and he approached his guru Sri Narada and he said that you have not glorified the lord nor have your written down lord's past times which are very confidential. To this Vyasadev accepted and wrote Srimad Bhagavatam. Now why does Srimad Bhagavatam talks about Krsna because Vyasadev knows that Krsna is the supreme. If Vyasadev identified another God/Goddess to be supreme, he would have surely mentioned that specific God/Goddess and glorified accordingly. This is where the Faith part comes into play and Srila Prabhupad repeatedly insisted on following the parampara system so aspiring devotees are not cheated with different interpretations and texts and so called "sadhus" or "incarnation of god".
Prabhu, spend time reading Srimad Bhagavatam and it will answer all your questions and more. How can one understand Krsna and his supremacy through a forum post and responses prabhu?? Devotees invest their entire life and still feel that they dont know anything about Krsna. Krsna cannot be known in full as he is unlimited. His pastimes are inconceivable to our limited knowledge, understanding and intelligence.
I am sorry I was unable to answer to your questions directly but I would strongly suggest your to read the authorised texts for better understanding. However other devotees might be able to directly answer your questions if they choose to do so.
Maybe krsna's mercy be upon his devotees.
Hare krsna
Hare krsna
Dear Janardan and krishna dasa and other devotees,
I hope my response does not upset anyone or bring about feelings of dissatisfaction in my service.
It took me some time to think about this question. The first thought was that it is not a good spiritual exercise to try and prove something like that. However, after much thought, and to add to others thoughts on here I cannot help but agree with krishna dasa. Every sloka(paragraph) in Srimad Bhagavatam itself is a proof. In addition to all that proof SB itself proves its own validity as Absolute Truth. Starting from Canto 1 to the last Canto, the words spoken by Narada Muni are a Timeless proof of Krishnas superiority over everything that is created and Cannot be disproved.
As Manohar Krishna patil noted, SB is a pure and spotless record. The means inside of SB orient us toward self realization in a spiritual life...
However, I also found a short answer to your question regarding superiority. If you are a faithful devotee,
The simple answer is in the qualities of Krishna which he simply has more of and posseses in full. As pointed out in an earlier forum (by Suparno), Krishna has these Extra four qualities:
(61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes).
(62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead.
(63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute.
(64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.
However, if you are a non-devotee or not a faithful person, unfortunately there will never be an answer based on Absolute Truth for you, as you will choose to belief Some Truth based on on the limitations of your own ability to think and come up with conclusions...
There is only one way to understand Absolute Truth, and it is through complete surrender and devotional service to a pure devotee. It is through association, surrender and devotional service to other devotees that we have our faith and are able to understand some parts of that Absolute Truth. Just reading SB would not be helpful. Please seek your spiritual master (another pure devotee) and surrender, serve and devote your life to him/her and you will find the proof. Otherwise there is no proof - only thoughts limited to Human intelligence. How clever or intelligent can a human be? I have seen extremely intelligent devotees with faith, and I have also seen similarly intelligent non-devotees, people of no faith - therefore I am certain that intelligence alone is not enough to understand or prove anything related to spiritual life...
I really hope this helps answer your doubts.
Kindly,
-ilya
very nice response krishna dasa prabhuji ! shrimad bhagwat purana is pure satvik or amala purana which means spotless purana or vishuddh purana.everyone who worshipping krishna or narayana must read the shrimad bhagwatama which is also a form of god. one can tell you(janardana prabhu) directly by some exact texts like - krishna and arjuna returns to dwarka from vaikuntha and after seeing vaikuntha arjuna says something which clears that krishna is supreme than all.... but its upon you that you will believe or not ! in my opinion - devotion is important and who is supreme who is not this is not much important. if one loves chaurbhuj form i.e vishnu/narayana then he got feeling that everything is narayana/vishnu and if one loves dwibhuj form i.e krishna then he got feeling that everything is krishna !
also one thing which we are forget(maybe you not) that itihas and puranas are also counted in vedas.shri ved vyasa written that itihas(ramayana,mahabharata,etc.) and puran are fifth ved.