hare krishna to allall glories to srila prabhupada,There is no doubt that krishna is the supreme personality of godhead which is evident from BG,SB 1.3.28(krishnas tu bhagavan svayam) and brahma samhita text 1but is shiva also the supreme personality of godhead(Supreme Brahman)? As stated in SB 4.6.42 where brahma is satisfying lord shivabrahmoväcajäne tväm éçaà viçvasyajagato yoni-béjayoùçakteù çivasya ca paraàyat tad brahma nirantaramLord Brahmä said: My dear Lord Çiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.Also in context to lord ram praying to lord shiva in ramayana please explain how supreme lord krishna or lord vishnu are superior to lord shiva or lord brahma.please give reference from shastras,your servant,abhishek
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रामेण सदृशो देवो न भूतो न भविष्यति ।। अतएव रामनाम काश्यां विश्वेश्वरः सदा । स्वयं जप्त्वोपदिशति जन्तूनां मुक्तिहेतवे ॥ संसारार्णवसंमग्नं नरं यस्तारयेन्मनुः स एव तारकस्त्वत्र राममन्त्रः प्रकथ्यते ॥ अन्तकाले नृणां रामस्मरणं च मुहुर्मुहुः ॥ इति कुर्वन्त्युपदेशं मानवा मुक्तिहेतवे । अन्यच्चापि शववाहैः सदा लोकैर्मुहुर्मुहुः ॥ रामनामैव मुक्त्यर्थं शवस्य पथि कीर्त्यते रामनाम्नः परो मन्त्रो न भूतो न भविष्यति ॥
रामचन्द्रजीके समान न कोई देवता हुआ है और न होगा ही। इसीलिये काशीमें विश्वनाथ भगवान् शंकर निरन्तर 'राम' नामका स्वयं जप करते हैं और प्राणियोंकी मुक्तिके लिये उन्हें राममन्त्रका उपदेश दिया करते हैं। संसाररूपी समुद्रमें डूबे हुए मनुष्यको जो मन्त्र तार देता है, वही तारकमन्त्र राममन्त्र कहलाता है। मनुष्योंकी मुक्तिके लिये लोगोंके द्वारा अन्तिम समयमें उनसे बार-बार यही कहा जाता है कि रामका स्मरण करो, रामका स्मरण करो। इसी प्रकार शव वहन करनेवाले लोगोंके द्वारा मृतप्राणीकी मुक्तिके लिये शवयात्रामें बार-बार रामनामका ही उच्चारण किया जाता है। रामनामसे श्रेष्ठ कोई मन्त्र न आजतक ना हुआ है और न होगा ही।
Hare Krishna Prabhuji. Pamho. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please go through this below quotes from authentic scriptures, It will help to understand the position of Lord Shiva in contrast to Lord Vishnu
Brahma-samhita 5.45: Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.
PURPORT
(The real nature of Sambhu, the presiding deity of Mahesa-dhama, is described.) Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krishna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency. This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Sambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avatara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhagavata slokas, viz., vaishnavanamyathasambhuh, etc., is that Sambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durgadevi by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping-stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra-sastras, etc., suitable for jivas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Sambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionism (Mayavada) and the speculative agama-sastras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him. So Sambhu cannot be called a jiva. He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda.
Bhagavad Gita 10.23:Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva, of the Yakshas and Rakshasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru.
Bhagavad Gita 11.15:Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krishna, I see assembled in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Siva and all the sages and divine serpents.
Bhagavad Gita 11.22: All the various manifestations of Lord Siva, the Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Visvedevas, the two Asvis, the Maruts, the forefathers, the Gandharvas, the Yakshas, the Asuras and the perfected demigods are beholding You in wonder.
"The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy." ~ Mahabharata
"Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Siva was born."
Mahabharata, "There is no other God higher than Vishnu (na visnoh paramo devah)."
oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ "All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)
agnirvai devanamavamo vishnuh paramah tadantara sarva devatah "Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)
"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)
"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)
"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7).
Regarding sometimes we see in scriptures that Lord Vishnu is glorifying other devatas as supreme, we should not be bewildered and immediately drag any conclusion out of context. Scriptures gives understanding in different levels. To understand scriptures in its original perspective we have to see the conclusion given by the legendary Acharyas like Shankaracharya, Ramanuja, Madhvacharya,Lord Chaitanya, Vallavacharya,Nimbarkacharya , Srila Prabhupada. They talks all in same line though apparent indifference may be seen but if we scrutinize we will see all are of same conclusion that Lord Vishnu is the supreme personality of Godhead.
very excellent reply prabhuji!! I enjoyed reading all those passages!
To add on to the latter part of the question, as to why the incarnations of Lord Krishna and Lord Rama worship Lord Shiva... it's all a divine pastime. Lord Shiva is the foremost of deovtees, and similarly Lord Krishna/ Lord Rama, etc. reciprocates by serving Lord Shiva. Think about it this way. We are meant to serve Krishna, but that doesn't mean Krishna can't serve us, he does so out of his own free loving will, he wants to serve us because he gets great pleasure. Take the example of Sudama. Though he was a poor, he was still Krishna's dear friend. When Sudama went to Dwarka with a handful of uncooked rice, Krishna served him very nicely, and he even ate the uncooked rice Sudama had brought as a gift. Krishna- God, King; Sudama- Poor Brahmana....
Then Krishna immediately gave him everything! And there are numerous examples in the puranas of god serving others... it's just one way of how Krishna reciprocates with his devotees.
Replies
रामेण सदृशो देवो न भूतो न भविष्यति ।।
अतएव रामनाम काश्यां विश्वेश्वरः सदा ।
स्वयं जप्त्वोपदिशति जन्तूनां मुक्तिहेतवे ॥
संसारार्णवसंमग्नं नरं यस्तारयेन्मनुः स एव तारकस्त्वत्र राममन्त्रः प्रकथ्यते ॥
अन्तकाले नृणां रामस्मरणं च मुहुर्मुहुः ॥
इति कुर्वन्त्युपदेशं मानवा मुक्तिहेतवे ।
अन्यच्चापि शववाहैः सदा लोकैर्मुहुर्मुहुः ॥
रामनामैव मुक्त्यर्थं शवस्य पथि कीर्त्यते
रामनाम्नः परो मन्त्रो न भूतो न भविष्यति ॥
रामचन्द्रजीके समान न कोई देवता हुआ है और न होगा ही। इसीलिये काशीमें विश्वनाथ भगवान् शंकर निरन्तर 'राम' नामका स्वयं जप करते हैं और प्राणियोंकी मुक्तिके लिये उन्हें राममन्त्रका उपदेश दिया करते हैं। संसाररूपी समुद्रमें डूबे हुए मनुष्यको जो मन्त्र तार देता है, वही तारकमन्त्र राममन्त्र कहलाता है। मनुष्योंकी मुक्तिके लिये लोगोंके द्वारा अन्तिम समयमें उनसे बार-बार यही कहा जाता है कि रामका स्मरण करो, रामका स्मरण करो। इसी प्रकार शव वहन करनेवाले लोगोंके द्वारा मृतप्राणीकी मुक्तिके लिये शवयात्रामें बार-बार रामनामका ही उच्चारण किया जाता है। रामनामसे श्रेष्ठ कोई मन्त्र न आजतक ना हुआ है और न होगा ही।
[ आदि कवि वाल्किमी कृतआनन्द रामायण ]
Hare Krishna Prabhuji. Pamho. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please go through this below quotes from authentic scriptures, It will help to understand the position of Lord Shiva in contrast to Lord Vishnu
Brahma-samhita 5.45: Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.
PURPORT
(The real nature of Sambhu, the presiding deity of Mahesa-dhama, is described.) Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krishna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency. This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Sambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avatara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhagavata slokas, viz., vaishnavanam yatha sambhuh, etc., is that Sambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durgadevi by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping-stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra-sastras, etc., suitable for jivas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Sambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionism (Mayavada) and the speculative agama-sastras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him. So Sambhu cannot be called a jiva. He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda.
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Bhagavad Gita 10.23: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Siva, of the Yakshas and Rakshasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru.
Bhagavad Gita 11.15: Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krishna, I see assembled in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower, as well as Lord Siva and all the sages and divine serpents.
Bhagavad Gita 11.22: All the various manifestations of Lord Siva, the Adityas, the Vasus, the Sadhyas, the Visvedevas, the two Asvis, the Maruts, the forefathers, the Gandharvas, the Yakshas, the Asuras and the perfected demigods are beholding You in wonder.
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In the Moksha-dharma Krishna also says,
prajapatim ca rudram capy
aham eva srijami vai
tau hi mam na vijanito
mama maya-vimohitau
"The patriarchs, Siva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy." ~ Mahabharata
In the Varaha Purana it is also said,
narayanah paro devas
tasmaj jatas caturmukhah
tasmad rudro 'bhavad devah
sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah
"Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Siva was born."
Mahabharata, "There is no other God higher than Vishnu (na visnoh paramo devah)."
oṃ tad viṣṇoḥ paramam padam sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ
"All the suras (i.e., the devas) look always toward the feet of Lord Vishnu." (Rig Veda, 1:22:20)
agnirvai devanamavamo vishnuh paramah tadantara sarva devatah
"Agni is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest among devas. All other gods occupy positions that are in between." (Aitareya Brahmana 1.1.1)
"Then we shall expound the Mahopanishad. They say Narayana was alone. There were not Brahma, Shiva, Waters, Fire and Soma, Heaven and Earth, Stars, Sun and Moon. He could not be happy" (Maha Upanishad: I-1-4)
"Narayana desired to create people. Because of this thought, Soul (prana) rose from him. Mind and all body parts, sky, air, light, water and the earth which can carry all these created beings took their form. From Narayana, Brahma was born. From Narayana, Rudra (Shiva) was born. From Narayana, Indra was born .From Narayana those people who rule these human beings were born. From Narayana, the twelve suns, eleven Rudras, Eight Vasus and all those meters (for writing) were born. All these function because of Narayana. All these end in Narayana. Thus is read, the Upanishads of Rig Veda." (Narayana Upanishad)
"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding sometimes we see in scriptures that Lord Vishnu is glorifying other devatas as supreme, we should not be bewildered and immediately drag any conclusion out of context. Scriptures gives understanding in different levels. To understand scriptures in its original perspective we have to see the conclusion given by the legendary Acharyas like Shankaracharya, Ramanuja, Madhvacharya,Lord Chaitanya, Vallavacharya,Nimbarkacharya , Srila Prabhupada. They talks all in same line though apparent indifference may be seen but if we scrutinize we will see all are of same conclusion that Lord Vishnu is the supreme personality of Godhead.
Hope this will help
Your aspiring Servant,
Hari Bol
very excellent reply prabhuji!! I enjoyed reading all those passages!
To add on to the latter part of the question, as to why the incarnations of Lord Krishna and Lord Rama worship Lord Shiva... it's all a divine pastime. Lord Shiva is the foremost of deovtees, and similarly Lord Krishna/ Lord Rama, etc. reciprocates by serving Lord Shiva. Think about it this way. We are meant to serve Krishna, but that doesn't mean Krishna can't serve us, he does so out of his own free loving will, he wants to serve us because he gets great pleasure. Take the example of Sudama. Though he was a poor, he was still Krishna's dear friend. When Sudama went to Dwarka with a handful of uncooked rice, Krishna served him very nicely, and he even ate the uncooked rice Sudama had brought as a gift. Krishna- God, King; Sudama- Poor Brahmana....
Then Krishna immediately gave him everything! And there are numerous examples in the puranas of god serving others... it's just one way of how Krishna reciprocates with his devotees.