I WOULD LIKE TO ADD SOME POINT. I HAVE SEEN IN RAMANANDA SAGAR'S SREE KRISHNA TV SERIAL THAT WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS SPEAKING BHAGAVAD GITA, HE STOPPED THE TIME OR KALA. OR IT IS SAID KALA STOPPED TO LISTEN TO SUCH A RARE TRANSCENDENTAL NECTEAREAN INSTRUCTION FROM SUPREME LORD, CONTROLLER OF KALA- TIME AND DEATH.
87 Conquered by the intimate love of His devotee, Lord Krsna personally worships Siva just to glorify him.
88-9 Lord Krsna personally asked Siva to drink the terrible poison produced from the churning of nectar. In this way Siva became worshiped by the Prajapatis, and showered with streams of great glory.
90 The Puranas sing of the mercy of Lord Krsna to Siva. You know this already. O sage, please remember his glories.
91 Sri Pariksit said: O affectionate mother, Narada offered obeisances to his spiritual master and was about to depart for Kailasa Hill when Brahma glanced at his son and said:
92 Sri Brahma said: Submissive to the loving service of Kuvera, Siva resides in Kuvera's place on Mount Kailasa in the material universe.
93 Assuming the role of the protector of the northern direction, Siva resides there, surrounded by his associates, and keeping very little material wealth.
94 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna becomes conquered by the loving service of devotees like myself, and for this reason He resides on my planet, on Svargaloka, and in many other places as well, and enjoys suitable pastimes there. (In the same way Siva resides in Kailasa because of the devotion of Kuvera.)
95 I quote the opinion of Vayu Purana "The planet of Siva is beyond the seven-fold coverings of the material world. It is eternal, transcendental, and full of bliss. Only the greatest servants of Siva may enter it."
96 In that place Siva is decorated with splendid transcendental garments and ornaments. There He is the master of great powers and opulences, and there he is surrounded by many associates as splendid and glorious as he.
97 In that place, even though the two of them are not different, Siva worships the supremely powerful and opulent Lord Sankarsana as his chosen Deity. Is this not very wonderful?
What is the nature of the worshipers of different devas (gods)?
When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of passion, one worships the sun-god, Vivasvan. When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Ganapati, or Ganesa. When the mode of passion is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Durga, or Kali, the external potency. When one is simply in the mode of ignorance, one becomes a devotee of Lord Siva because Lord Siva is the predominating deity of the mode of ignorance within this material world. However, when one is completely free from the influence of all the modes of material nature, one becomes a pure Vaisnava on the devotional platform. (CC Madhya 24.330 p.)
Why did Lord Ramachandra worship Siva?
He (Lord Krsna and Lord Rama) likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say [in] the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here? (room conversation, Dec 23, 1975 Mumbai)
Mahabharata, Shanti Parva (12.328.5 onwards, dialogue between Lord Krishna and Arjuna):
brAhme rAtrikShaye prApte tasya hy amitatejasaH prasAdAtprAdurabhavatpadmaM padmanibhekShaNa tatra brahmA samabhavatsa tasyaiva prasAdajaH
In the brahma muhurta, at the end of the night, due to the mercy of the extremely brilliant Lord, a lotus emerged from His navel and in that lotus, Brahma was born, ofcourse, due to His grace.
At the end of the day, the Lord [present as antaryAmi of Brahma *] created Rudra out of krodha-guna, to enable him to be the 'samhara-karta'. Thus, these two 'fine-among-wise', Brahma and Rudra, are known to have been born out of grace and anger respectively.
* This interpretation is necessary because in the later sections of Moksadharma, Brahma addresses Rudra as a son.
[Rudra has] braided hair with knot of an ascetic and rest of the head bald. He dwells in the home of graveyard, steadfast on vigorous penance as a yogi. He is ferocious to Tripurasuras, destroyed Daksayajna and took away the eyes of Bhaga.
nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge
O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. (This phrase can mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in Narayana.)
tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH
It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana *IN* Maheshvara (the worshipable, the lord of the devas), who is actually worshiped.
ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH
O son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshiping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship Me, the indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.
mayA pramANaM hi kR^itaM lokaH samanuvartate pramAnAni hi pUjyAni tatastaM pUjayAmyaham
Whatever I follow and give due worth as a pramaNa, the world follows that. Such pramanas have to be duly followed; therefore I follow them.
yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu
Whoever knows him, knows Me. Whoever follows him, follows Me. (Though) the world, in all its actions, worships two gods, Rudra and Narayana, it is actually one only who is worshiped.
na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA
O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant Me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip Myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons.
na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham
Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.
The Actual Secret of Lord Shiva Adapted from Shri Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda Chapters 235-236. From Madhavananda Dasa's article in the Krishna Kathamrita magazine copyrighted by Gopal Jiu Publications. Please support the author by buying the Krishna Kathamrita Magazine.
Parvati Said, "O Lord Shiva, You once told me that one should avoid speaking with Pasandi atheistic demon,and that doing so is worse then talking to candalas outcastes. Please tell me of what are the symptoms of such persons and what signs do they wear on their bodies?"
Shiva replied,"Those Persons who,deluded by ignorace,describw any other deity being superior to Vishnu,The Lord of the world, are said to be Pasandis. Those who,although they do not belong to the Vanaprastha asrama, use skulls, decorate their bodies with ashes and bones, have non-Vedic marks, matted hair, and wear garments of tree bark, are said to be pasandis. Those brahmanas who are devoid of the marks and symbols dear to Vishnu, such as conches, discs,and vertical-lined tilaka worn on the forehead, are said to be pasandis. That brahman who does not follow the practices given in the sastra should be known as a pasandi and should be condemned by all people. Those who have no devotion for the Lord are said to be pasandi. One who behaves as he likes and offers oblations in to the fire for the worship of deities other than Lord Vishnu should be known as a pasandi, for Lord Vishnu is the enjoyer of fruit of all sacrifices and is the deity of brahmanas. He who considers Lord Vishnu as equal to other deities such as Brahma and myself, Rudra,should always be called a pasandi. That brahmana, who with his speech, body,and deeds dose not recognize Vishnu,is a pasandi. What is the use of saying much in this regard? Those brahmanas who are not devotees of Vishnu should never be asked any questions, should never be talked to,and should never be seen,"
Parvati said,"O lord,O best of gods,I want to ask you something secret. Through love for me,please answer. I have a great doubt.The sastras condemn using skulls, dercorating the body with ashes, and wearing skins of animals. Yet,you do all these things. Why are these thing condemned? O Lord of the gods, O highly intelligent one, due to women's natural fickleness I am asking you these questions. It may be that due to your great power you do not have to follow the sastric injunctions you just described, but previously you had not instructed me in this way. Therefore,O lord, please pardon my question."
Inquired thus by Pavati in that lonely place free from people,Lord Shiva explained to her the great secrets of his own behaviour. Shiva said, "O Goddess, please listen carefully. I shall tell you a very wonderful secret. You should not repeat what I am about to tell you to common people. I shall tell you the since your body is not separate form mine. Long ago, in the age of Swayambhuva Manu, there were many great demons like Namuchi [The demon Namuchi is described in Shrimad Bhagavatam 8.11.23-40.] who were very powerful and valorous heroes. All of them were devoted to Vishnu, acted purely, and were free from all sins. They followed the pratices laid down in the Vedas. Seeing this, all of gods head by Indra were greatly frustrated. Overcome by fear,they approached Lord Vishnu and took shelter of Him.
"The devas said,'O Kesava, only You can conqeur these great demons who cannot be conqured by all of the gods and who have washed off their sins with penance.'"
Lord Shiva continued, "Hearing the frightful words of the demigods, Lord Vishnu, Purushottma consoled the devas,and said to me,'O Rudra,O you of might arms, O you who are the best of the gods, for the purpose of deluding the enemies of the demigods prepere a course of conduct to be followed by pasandis. Narrate to them the dark puranas, which will take them astray. O intelligent one, you should create holy texts that will cause the demons to become confused.
"'Through devotion to Me,and for the good of the world, You should approach atheistic sages such as Kanada, Gautama,Sakti, Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila,[not to be confused with Kapila,the son of Devahuti], Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava, and Jamadagni. Exert upon them your power of suggestion. Being infused by your power they will become powerful pasandis. There is no doubt about it. Empowered by you, these brahmanas will narrate to the three worlds the Puranas and doctrines in the mode of ingnorance. O Shiva, on your person you should bear symbols like a skull, animal skins, ashes, and bones. Dressed in way you should fully delude everyone in the three Worlds. You should also inaugurate the pasupata order [The pasupates are a group of followers of Lord Shiva] with its divisions like kankala, saiva, pasanda and mahasaiva. Through these persons you should preach a doctrine whose followers wear no particular identifying marks and are outside the Vedic fold. Wearing ashes and bones, they will be bereft of higher consciousness and will consider you to be the greatest god.
"'Taking to these doctrines, all of these demons will become averse to Me in a moment.There is no doubt it. O powerful Rudra,in every age in My different incarnations I too shall worship you to delude the demons. Following these doctrines,they will undoubtedly fall down.'"
Lord Shiva then told Parvati, "O beautiful one, after hearing Lord Vishnu's words, although I am a good speaker I become helpless snd silent.Then offering my obeisances to Lord Vishnu, I said, O Lord,if I do what You have said,it will certainly lead to my destruction. It is is not possoble for me to carry out this instrustion, yet Your order is not to be disobeyed. This is very Painful."
"O goddess,hearing my words, Vishnu spkoke in such way to restore my happiness. He said,'This will not be the cause of your destruction. Do as I order you for the good of the demigods. I shall also give you the means to maintain yourself while you are preaching these demoniac philosophies. Then with compassion, Lord Vishnu gave me the prayers known as Vishnu-sahasra-nama. Vishnu said,'Installing Me in your heart, utter My indestructible mantra. This very powerful six-syllable mantra is transcendental and awards liberation to thise who worship Me with devotion. There is no doubt about this.'
pita-vastram catur-bahum janaki-priya-vallabham shri-ramaya nama ity evam uccaryam mantram-uttamam
sarva-duhkha haram caitat papinam api mukti-dam imam mantram japan nityam amalas tvam bhavisyasi
I offer my obeisances to Him, dark like the petal of a blue lotus, with lotus-petal eyes, holding a conch, a disc, and sarnga bow, adorned with all ornaments, wearing yellow ornements, having four arms, and who is the dear lord of Janaki, Sita-devi.The divine mantra, 'shri-ramaya namah,' should be chanted. It remones all lamentation and gives salvation to even sinners. One who regularly chants this mantra will be free from all contamination.[6.235.44-46]
"'All of the sinful rections due to wearing ashes and bones will all be destroyed and everthing will beacome auspicious due to reciting My mantra. O best of the gods, being pleased I shall destroy all sin. By My blessings, devotion to no other god than Me will arise. In your heart, worship Me who is the Supreme Being. Obey My order. Due to love for Me, everything will be auspicious for you. 'Having thus ordered Me, O goddes, He dismissed the hosts of gods who then returned to their own abodes. The gods led by Indra then requested me, 'O Mahadev, Shiva, Quickly perform those beneficial acts as instructed by Lord Vishnu.'"
Mahadeva then said to goddess Parvati, "O auspicious one, for the good of the gods I took to the way of the pasandis and started wearing skulls, hides, ashes, and bones. O auspicious one, as instructed by Lord Vishnu, I distributed the tamasic puranas and the pasandi Shiva doctrines. O sinless one, by entering Gautama and other brahmanas with my potency I proclaimed texts outside the Vedic fold. Adopting the system I gave, all of the wicked demons became averse to Lord Vishnu, and were enveloped in ignorance. Applying ashes to their bodies and performing severe penance, they stopped worship of Lord Vishnu and worshiped only me with flesh, blood and sandalwood.
"Receiving boons from me, they became intoxicated with power and pride. They were very much attached to the object of the senses, and were full of lust and anger. In that condition, devoid of goodness, they were defeated by the devas. Bereft of righteous paths, those who resort to this doctrine of mine alway go to hell.
"O goddess, thus this behavior of mine is only followed by me for the good of the gods. Following Lord Vishnu's order, I decorate myslf with ashes and bones. O goddess, these external marks are meant only for deluding the demons. In my heart I always meditate upon the Supreme Lord Vishnu and always chant His mantras. By chanting this great six-syllable mantra I taste the eternal nectar of ecstatic joy. O Lady with an auspicious face, I have answered all that you have asked me. Affectionately I ask you, what else do you desire to hear?"
Parvati said, "O sinless one, tell me about the tamasic scriptures that were composed by the brahmanas bereft of devotion to the Lord. O Lord of the demigods Please tell me their names in sequence.
Lord Shiva replied, "O goddess, please listen. In sequence I shall tell you about the tamasic texts. Simply by remembering them even wise persons become deluded. First,I Myself proclaimed the Shiva, pasupata, and related texts. After my power had entered him, Kanada preached the Vaisesika Philosophy. Similarly, Gautama preached Nyaya,and Kapila preached the atheistic Sankhya. Brihaspati preached the much-censured Charvaka doctrine, and Buddha proclaimed Buddhism to destroy the demons.
"Mayavada or Advaita philosophy is an impious, wicked belief and against all the conclusions of the Vedas. It is only covered Buddhism. My dear Parvati, in Kali-Yoga I assume the form of a brahmana (Adi Shankara) and teach this imagined philosophy.
sarva-karma paribhrastair vaidharma tvam tad ucyate paresa-jiva-paraikyam maya tu pratipadyate
"This mayavada advaita philosophy preached by me (in form of Adi Shankara) deprives the words of the holy texts of their acutal meaning and thus it is condemned in the world. It recommends the renunciation of one's own duties, since those who have fallen from their duties say that the giving up of duties is religiosity. In this way, I have also falsely propounded the identity of the Supreme Lord and the individual soul."
"In order to bewilder the atheists, in Kali-yuga, I describe the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Gauranga Krishna to be without any form and without qualities."
Padma Purana 6.236.11
vedante tu maha-sastrera mayavadam avaidikam mayaiva vaksyate devi jagatam nasha-karanat
"Similarly, in explaning Vedanta mahashastra, I described the same non-scriptural and inauspicious mayavada philosophy in order to mislead the entire population toward atheism by denying the personal form of my beloved Lord."
[As described in the seventh chapter of adi-lila of Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita, while speaking to Prakashananda Saraswati and the mayavadi sannyasis of Benares, Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu cited these texts to show how Lord Shiva had come in Kali-yuga as Shripad Sankaracharya to propound the philosophy of monism and bewilder the souls. Cited translation of texts 7,10 and 11 are based on the translation of His Divine Grace Shrila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as found in his purport to Cc. Adi 7.110.]
Post Author: Swami Date: 2008-10-05 14:09:05
Haridham wrote: Hare Krsna. Please accept my dandavat pranams. All glories to your service. I just had a simple question from something that I read on ur site. It was regarding the "actual Secret of Lord shiva" where Lord Shiva explains to Parvati that he was ordered by Lord vishnu to come as sankarcarya and spread the false philosophy of advaita. My question is what about those who state that the verse we are reffering to from padma purana is intorpalated(sp) and is not in any current editions of the padma purana and therefore not a bonafide section of the padma purana. They think some vaisnavas may have added this verse or something. Have you come across that? What is the best way to respond to that.
Answer by BR Sadhu Swami Gaurangapada:
I think this pastime (chapter) may be found in many of the current editions of the Padma Purana. One has to purchase a Padma Purana copy printed by neutral publishers and this chapter may still be there.
The present publishers of the Puranas, both Nag and Motilal base their publications on the original Puranic texts published by Venkateshwara Steam Press in the early 1900s in Mumbai. Unfortunately, there is no trace of the authentic Puranic editions before that. It is said that the Venkateshwara Steam Press editions of the Puranas do have many Puranic sections and verses which are missing due to unavailability. The 18 Puranas have a total of 400,000 verses and the Venkateshwara Steam Press editions and the present editions do not have all these verses, which proves that some Puranic portions have been permanently lost. Some of our previous Acharyas around 200-500 years ago like the Six Goswamis (Hari Bhakti Vilasa etc), Shrila Vishvanatha Chakravati, Shrila Baladeva Vidyabhushana have quoted verses from the Puranas which cannot be found in the present-day edition of the Puranas but that does not mean they never existed. They were an integral part of the Puranas but those authentic sections were lost or were deliberately removed by selfish and unscrupulous people with ulterior motives, at some point of time. We are fully certain about the integrity and divine character of our Acharyas because they had no selfish interests and with their perfect senses, they never had any desire to cheat. They would never ever add, quote or attribute a verse to the Puranas if it did not belong there in the first place. By their divine vision, they could even see those verses which were present in the original Puranas but removed later on by people with their own agendas.
We should read those versions of Mahabaharat and Ramayan that are handed down to us by an authorised sampraday. Asampradayas like Shaktas, Shaivaites simply distort them to support their own bogus philosophies.
Haribol, prabhuji !! See , Mahabharata, Ramayan, Purana have undergone lots of distortions and interpolations. In Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, Srila Madhavacharya states---
kvachid granthAn praxipanti kvachidantaritAnapi | kuryuH kvachichcha vyatyAsaM pramAdAt kvachidanyathA || 2.3 In some places (of the Mahabharatha) verses have been interpolated and in others verses have been omitted in some places, the verses have been transposed and in others, different readings have been given out of ignorance or otherwise.
anutsannA api granthA vyAkulA iti sarvashaH | utsannAH prAyashaH sarve koTyaMsho.api na vartate || 2.4 Though the works are really indestructible, they must be deemed to be mostly altered. Mostly all of them have disappeared and not even one crore (out of several crores of slokas) now exists. Note—The Moola Ramayana consisted of 100 crores of slokas; Pancharatra consisted of 50 crores; Mahabharatha, of 60 lakhs of slokas; other Puranas, of 4 lakhs.
grantho.apyevaM viluLitaH kimvartho devadurgamaH | kalAvevaM vyAkulite nirNayAya prachoditaH || 2.5 hariNA nirNayAn vachmi vijAna.nstatprasAdataH || 2.6 shAstrAntarANi saJNjAnan vedAMshchAsya prasAdataH | deshe deshe tathA granthAn dR^ishhTvA chaiva pR^ithagvidhAn || 2.7 When the original work itself is so altered, What is there to say of its meaning which is intelligible (even) to the Devas only with difficulty.When the work had thus become altered in the Kali age, under the direction of Hari for its clear understanding, I shall state the settled truths having known them through His grace, and also having well known the other (extinct) works and all the Vedas through His grace, and also having examined the various editions existing in several places.
Thus Srila Madhavacharya wrote Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya where we can have authentic information about the actual events that took place in the times of Mahabharata and Ramayan. Madhavacharya clearly states his purpose of writing Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya,
"yathA sa bhagavAn vyAsaH sAxAnnArAyaNaH prabhuH | jagAda bhAratAdyeshhu tathA vaxye tadIxayA || 2.8 saN^xepAt sarvashAstrArthaM bhAratArthAnusArataH | nirNayaH sarvashAstrANAM bhArataM parikIrtitam || 2.9 Just as the all powerful supreme Lord Vyasa who is no other than Narayana has narrated in the Bharatha and other works, I shall also, with the knowledge imparted by Him, briefly state the essential teachings of all the Sastras, in accordance with the interpretation of Bharatha. The Bharatha is stated to be the decisive authority on all the Sastras."
So in my opinion, it is better to study Mahabharat Tatparya Nirnaya which provides bonafide knowledge rather than the distorted Mahabharat of Kali-yuga. The book also covers incidents of Ramayan. Ramayan has also been distorted by the Shaktas. In Krittivasi Ramayan, Krittivas himself being a shakta, writes that Lord Ram worshipped Lord Durga and begged for her mercy and when Durga showed mercy, Lord Rama could kill Ravan and rescue Sita, an event which has got no mention in Valmiki Ramayan. That's how in Bengal, Durga is considered Supreme over Vishnu. Similarly Mahabharat too has been distorted by the Shavaites. Its better to avoid them rather than to engage in a debate. They won't listen at all. This is the effect of Kali.
Logically we cannot understand krsna and his spirituality. Where all logic ends, spirituality begins.
Gita is the essence of all scriptures . Most religious institutes, well known universities in US, UK also accept GITA. Even the Govt of India accepts that. Hence they have retained the GITA for taking oath during the court case for a hindu accused. They do not keep Ramayana or Mahabharata or any purana or upanisad. Hence it can be concluded that even the gross materialist accepts gita.
There seems to be many contradictions in the scriptures. But these contradictions are only apparent. They are really not contradictions. The most famous example is of cows stool. The vedas claim that if you touch stool, you should take bath. But it also says that cows stool is pure.
To avoid all contradictions and confusions, the most renowned saivaite acarya - Sankaracarya sings in gita mahatmya text 7-
ekam shastram devaki-putra-gitam / eko devo devaki-putra eva / eko mantras tasya namani yani / karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva
There need be only one holy scripture—the divine Gita sung by Lord Shri Krishna: only one worshipable Lord—Lord Shri Krishna: only one mantra—His holy names: and only one duty—devotional service unto that Supreme Worshipable Lord, Shri Krishna.
Also Sankaracarya tells bhaja govindam. he doesn't tell bhaja shambhum. (If one is a true follower of sankaracarya he should worship govinda.)
Hence most materialist as well as almost all spiritualists believe in gita.
But when it comes to understanding of gita they differ in opinion.
When you read bhagavad gita as it is written by prabhupada - without any doubt krsna is established as supreme personality of godhead.
Also the more you read innumerable scriptures here and there, the more you get confused. Srila prabhupada says - There is no need to study anything. If you want to gain knowledge, simply study Srimad Bhagavatam to get that knowledge.
Hence we try to preach or answer to the general populace based on the BG and SB. If they don't believe and refute with other scriptures, we can only pray for them to become a devotee. Also we should consider ourself lucky and thank krsna because we're not confused like them.
From all these questions, I can only assume you are dealing with Saivites
Based on my personal experience I would highly suggest you ignore them. While we Vaishnavas have utmost regard for Lord Shiva, there are some Saivites that have no regard for Lord Krishna or Lord Vishnu and they often criticize Krsna with what I call "mumbo jumbo" examples that show that they have not studied Krsna, and if one has not studied Krsna, one has no right to refute Krsna's supremacy.
Basically, they commit Aparadha but insulting Krsna, and unknown to them, they also insult Lord Shiva, who is always thinking of Lord Krsna / Rama... and you also take a bit of the Aparadha because you are hearing it.
The thing that many people don't understand is that the relationship between Krsna and Shiva is on level different from the material platform. Here in the material world status means everything. Those that are higher have more respect than those lower and through their twisted minds they seek to establish something between God and his devotees without understanding God and his pastimes.
Now, this doesn't mean that our scriptures also seek to establish this status. No. Our scriptures are written from hard work from meditating on the Lord, the Lord revealing himself, and finally the actual compilation of the scriptures (particularly Vyasa Dev). Great sages and munis have confirmed that Lord Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Brahma confirms this in the Brahma Samhita - Govindam Adi Purusham, Tam Aham Bajami - I worship the all primeval Lord known as Govinda!
Supreme Controller is Krsna - Isvarah paramah krsna (Brahma Samhita)
Krsna is Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam (Bhagavatam)
The potency of Krsna's name is three times that of Rama which is thousand times more potent then the holy name of Vishnu (Upanishads)
As you pointed out, in the Shiva Gita - Lord Shiva declares that he is the servant of Lord Rama. And we see Krsna, Rama and Parasurama worshiping Shiva for boons and benedictions. Does that mean that Krsna being God cannot worship his devotees? No.
So then why does Krsna worship Mahadeva, why does he instruct Arjuna to worship Shiva Sankar and Devi Maa? Because as Krsna emphasizes in the Gita - results come from action! It was important for Arjuna to get Shiva's blessings and the Pasupatastra to get more divine weapons and access to the heavens, which can only be done through meditation (action). It was important for Arjuna to please Goddess Durga to ensure her blessings. Remember, the Pandavas were long protected by Krsna way before the war, and were still always protected by Krsna (Narayana astra launched by Aswathama for example). But having the blessings of Durga who is a goddess of war is also necessary. Lord Rama himself worshiped Durga before his war with Ravana.
Hopefully that gives a semi-answer to some questions (again I am giving these answers for your knowledge, not to refute others).
"6. We have heard about the pre vedic images of lord shiva found during excavation & phallus worship. But we have not found any thing of such period in excavations on lord vishnu. So , was lord vishnu's worship not popular or prevalent?"
Hmm I can't say anything about this, but if what I have heard is true, then Muslims are worshipers of Shiva, thus it could also be that Muslims destroyed Vishnu temples (which has happened in the past during Muslim invasions)... but I don't want to point fingers... this is not a fact, just a thought.
I can't answer 8 as I haven't studied the Krsna and Uddhava's discussion yet, but for #7 and #9: I have heard both arguments and they cite silly examples. For example Krsna in the Gita keeps switching back between "I" and "Supreme Lord" so people think that Krsna is being "possessed" by someone else when he says I... no that is simply foolishness. It is rather obvious to those who are devotees of the Lord that Krsna is always talking about himself, even in the third person. #9 is an assumption, there are no hard core facts proving otherwise, and thus is nothing but a waste of time. I haven't read the original Mahabharata thus I don't know if it gives an approximations, but let's look at it logically. Krsna knows that this is a battlefield, thus he isn't going to waste time and going very slowly. It's a basic conversation. Arjuna asks questions, Krsna answers them...
The last two questions deal with Lord Shiva so I am going to avoid answering them. It doesn't matter who gives who what, that isn't the goal of life. We worship who we love. I love Krsna and I have utmost respect for Lord Shiva (though I will admit after having some conversations with Saivites my mind was restless and I am sure I must have committed Vaishnava Aparadha).
Honestly, don't let people's need to argue and debate stir your from KC... let them believe what they want to, and you believe in what you want to. Vaishnava Aparadha is very dangerous, avoid it at all. You may be arguing in Krsna's favor, but if you criticize Lord Shiva, even indirectly, Krsna will not be happy with you. So I again, highly recommend you to ignore and cover your ears to those who wish to discuss who is supreme - Krsna or Shiva because some Saivites will criticize Krsna, and by doing so insults Lord Shiva, and by insulting Lord Shiva one is committing great offense. We as Vaishnavas may also do the same, and create great offense that hurts Srimati Radharani and Balarama.
Please forgive me for anything that I have written that was inaccurate or offensive. My intentions were surely not that.
Replies
HARE KRISHNA
HARI BOL
JAI ACHARYAS JAI VAISHNAVAJAN!
I WOULD LIKE TO ADD SOME POINT. I HAVE SEEN IN RAMANANDA SAGAR'S SREE KRISHNA TV SERIAL THAT WHEN LORD KRSNA WAS SPEAKING BHAGAVAD GITA, HE STOPPED THE TIME OR KALA. OR IT IS SAID KALA STOPPED TO LISTEN TO SUCH A RARE TRANSCENDENTAL NECTEAREAN INSTRUCTION FROM SUPREME LORD, CONTROLLER OF KALA- TIME AND DEATH.
HARE KRISHNA PRABHU JI!
FROM BRIHAD BHAGADANAMRITA
87 Conquered by the intimate love of His devotee, Lord Krsna personally worships Siva just to glorify him.
88-9 Lord Krsna personally asked Siva to drink the terrible poison produced from the churning of nectar. In this way Siva became worshiped by the Prajapatis, and showered with streams of great glory.
90 The Puranas sing of the mercy of Lord Krsna to Siva. You know this already. O sage, please remember his glories.
91 Sri Pariksit said: O affectionate mother, Narada offered obeisances to his spiritual master and was about to depart for Kailasa Hill when Brahma glanced at his son and said:
92 Sri Brahma said: Submissive to the loving service of Kuvera, Siva resides in Kuvera's place on Mount Kailasa in the material universe.
93 Assuming the role of the protector of the northern direction, Siva resides there, surrounded by his associates, and keeping very little material wealth.
94 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna becomes conquered by the loving service of devotees like myself, and for this reason He resides on my planet, on Svargaloka, and in many other places as well, and enjoys suitable pastimes there. (In the same way Siva resides in Kailasa because of the devotion of Kuvera.)
95 I quote the opinion of Vayu Purana "The planet of Siva is beyond the seven-fold coverings of the material world. It is eternal, transcendental, and full of bliss. Only the greatest servants of Siva may enter it."
96 In that place Siva is decorated with splendid transcendental garments and ornaments. There He is the master of great powers and opulences, and there he is surrounded by many associates as splendid and glorious as he.
97 In that place, even though the two of them are not different, Siva worships the supremely powerful and opulent Lord Sankarsana as his chosen Deity. Is this not very wonderful?
What is the nature of the worshipers of different devas (gods)?
When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of passion, one worships the sun-god, Vivasvan. When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Ganapati, or Ganesa. When the mode of passion is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Durga, or Kali, the external potency. When one is simply in the mode of ignorance, one becomes a devotee of Lord Siva because Lord Siva is the predominating deity of the mode of ignorance within this material world. However, when one is completely free from the influence of all the modes of material nature, one becomes a pure Vaisnava on the devotional platform. (CC Madhya 24.330 p.)
Why did Lord Ramachandra worship Siva?
He (Lord Krsna and Lord Rama) likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say [in] the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here? (room conversation, Dec 23, 1975 Mumbai)
Mahabharata, Shanti Parva (12.328.5 onwards, dialogue between Lord Krishna and Arjuna):
brAhme rAtrikShaye prApte tasya hy amitatejasaH prasAdAtprAdurabhavatpadmaM padmanibhekShaNa tatra brahmA samabhavatsa tasyaiva prasAdajaH
In the brahma muhurta, at the end of the night, due to the mercy of the extremely brilliant Lord, a lotus emerged from His navel and in that lotus, Brahma was born, ofcourse, due to His grace.
ahnaH kShaye lalAtAchcha suto devasya vai tathA krodhAviShTasya sa~njaGYe rudraH saMhAra kArakaH etau dvau vibudhashreShThau prasAdakrodhajau smR^itau
At the end of the day, the Lord [present as antaryAmi of Brahma *] created Rudra out of krodha-guna, to enable him to be the 'samhara-karta'. Thus, these two 'fine-among-wise', Brahma and Rudra, are known to have been born out of grace and anger respectively.
* This interpretation is necessary because in the later sections of Moksadharma, Brahma addresses Rudra as a son.
tadAdeshita panthAnau sR^iShTi saMhAra kArakau nimittamAtraM tAvatra sarvaprAni varapradau
Thus, they carry out the instructed tasks of creation and destruction. However, they, the givers of boons to all the creatures, are just the agents.
kapardI jatilo mundaH shmashAnagR^ihasevakaH ugravratadharo rudro yogI tripuradAruNaH dakShakratuharashchaiva bhaga netraharastathA
[Rudra has] braided hair with knot of an ascetic and rest of the head bald. He dwells in the home of graveyard, steadfast on vigorous penance as a yogi. He is ferocious to Tripurasuras, destroyed Daksayajna and took away the eyes of Bhaga.
nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge
O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. (This phrase can mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in Narayana.)
tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH
It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana *IN* Maheshvara (the worshipable, the lord of the devas), who is actually worshiped.
ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH
O son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshiping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship Me, the indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.
mayA pramANaM hi kR^itaM lokaH samanuvartate pramAnAni hi pUjyAni tatastaM pUjayAmyaham
Whatever I follow and give due worth as a pramaNa, the world follows that. Such pramanas have to be duly followed; therefore I follow them.
yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu
Whoever knows him, knows Me. Whoever follows him, follows Me. (Though) the world, in all its actions, worships two gods, Rudra and Narayana, it is actually one only who is worshiped.
na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA
O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant Me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip Myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons.
na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham
Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/siva.htm
The Actual Secret of Lord Shiva
Adapted from Shri Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda Chapters 235-236.
From Madhavananda Dasa's article in the Krishna Kathamrita magazine copyrighted by Gopal Jiu Publications. Please support the author by
buying the Krishna Kathamrita Magazine.
Parvati Said, "O Lord Shiva, You once told me that one should avoid speaking with Pasandi atheistic demon,and that doing so is worse then talking to candalas outcastes. Please tell me of what are the symptoms of such persons and what signs do they wear on their bodies?"
Shiva replied,"Those Persons who,deluded by ignorace,describw any other deity being superior to Vishnu,The Lord of the world, are said to be Pasandis. Those who,although they do not belong to the Vanaprastha asrama, use skulls, decorate their bodies with ashes and bones, have non-Vedic marks, matted hair, and wear garments of tree bark, are said to be pasandis. Those brahmanas who are devoid of the marks and symbols dear to Vishnu, such as conches, discs,and vertical-lined tilaka worn on the forehead, are said to be pasandis. That brahman who does not follow the practices given in the sastra should be known as a pasandi and should be condemned by all people. Those who have no devotion for the Lord are said to be pasandi. One who behaves as he likes and offers oblations in to the fire for the worship of deities other than Lord Vishnu should be known as a pasandi, for Lord Vishnu is the enjoyer of fruit of all sacrifices and is the deity of brahmanas. He who considers Lord Vishnu as equal to other deities such as Brahma and myself, Rudra,should always be called a pasandi. That brahmana, who with his speech, body,and deeds dose not recognize Vishnu,is a pasandi. What is the use of saying much in this regard? Those brahmanas who are not devotees of Vishnu should never be asked any questions, should never be talked to,and should never be seen,"
Parvati said,"O lord,O best of gods,I want to ask you something secret. Through love for me,please answer. I have a great doubt.The sastras condemn using skulls, dercorating the body with ashes, and wearing skins of animals. Yet,you do all these things. Why are these thing condemned? O Lord of the gods, O highly intelligent one, due to women's natural fickleness I am asking you these questions. It may be that due to your great power you do not have to follow the sastric injunctions you just described, but previously you had not instructed me in this way. Therefore,O lord, please pardon my question."
Inquired thus by Pavati in that lonely place free from people,Lord Shiva explained to her the great secrets of his own behaviour. Shiva said, "O Goddess, please listen carefully. I shall tell you a very wonderful secret. You should not repeat what I am about to tell you to common people. I shall tell you the since your body is not separate form mine. Long ago, in the age of Swayambhuva Manu, there were many great demons like Namuchi [The demon Namuchi is described in Shrimad Bhagavatam 8.11.23-40.] who were very powerful and valorous heroes. All of them were devoted to Vishnu, acted purely, and were free from all sins. They followed the pratices laid down in the Vedas. Seeing this, all of gods head by Indra were greatly frustrated. Overcome by fear,they approached Lord Vishnu and took shelter of Him.
"The devas said,'O Kesava, only You can conqeur these great demons who cannot be conqured by all of the gods and who have washed off their sins with penance.'"
Lord Shiva continued, "Hearing the frightful words of the demigods, Lord Vishnu, Purushottma consoled the devas,and said to me,'O Rudra,O you of might arms, O you who are the best of the gods, for the purpose of deluding the enemies of the demigods prepere a course of conduct to be followed by pasandis. Narrate to them the dark puranas, which will take them astray. O intelligent one, you should create holy texts that will cause the demons to become confused.
"'Through devotion to Me,and for the good of the world, You should approach atheistic sages such as Kanada, Gautama,Sakti, Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila,[not to be confused with Kapila,the son of Devahuti], Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava, and Jamadagni. Exert upon them your power of suggestion. Being infused by your power they will become powerful pasandis. There is no doubt about it. Empowered by you, these brahmanas will narrate to the three worlds the Puranas and doctrines in the mode of ingnorance. O Shiva, on your person you should bear symbols like a skull, animal skins, ashes, and bones. Dressed in way you should fully delude everyone in the three Worlds. You should also inaugurate the pasupata order [The pasupates are a group of followers of Lord Shiva] with its divisions like kankala, saiva, pasanda and mahasaiva. Through these persons you should preach a doctrine whose followers wear no particular identifying marks and are outside the Vedic fold. Wearing ashes and bones, they will be bereft of higher consciousness and will consider you to be the greatest god.
"'Taking to these doctrines, all of these demons will become averse to Me in a moment.There is no doubt it. O powerful Rudra,in every age in My different incarnations I too shall worship you to delude the demons. Following these doctrines,they will undoubtedly fall down.'"
Lord Shiva then told Parvati, "O beautiful one, after hearing Lord Vishnu's words, although I am a good speaker I become helpless snd silent.Then offering my obeisances to Lord Vishnu, I said, O Lord,if I do what You have said,it will certainly lead to my destruction. It is is not possoble for me to carry out this instrustion, yet Your order is not to be disobeyed. This is very Painful."
"O goddess,hearing my words, Vishnu spkoke in such way to restore my happiness. He said,'This will not be the cause of your destruction. Do as I order you for the good of the demigods. I shall also give you the means to maintain yourself while you are preaching these demoniac philosophies. Then with compassion, Lord Vishnu gave me the prayers known as Vishnu-sahasra-nama. Vishnu said,'Installing Me in your heart, utter My indestructible mantra. This very powerful six-syllable mantra is transcendental and awards liberation to thise who worship Me with devotion. There is no doubt about this.'
indivar-dala-syamam padma-patra-vilocanam
sankhanga-sarngesu-dharam sarvabharana-bhusitam
pita-vastram catur-bahum janaki-priya-vallabham
shri-ramaya nama ity evam uccaryam mantram-uttamam
sarva-duhkha haram caitat papinam api mukti-dam
imam mantram japan nityam amalas tvam bhavisyasi
I offer my obeisances to Him, dark like the petal of a blue lotus, with lotus-petal eyes, holding a conch, a disc, and sarnga bow, adorned with all ornaments, wearing yellow ornements, having four arms, and who is the dear lord of Janaki, Sita-devi.The divine mantra, 'shri-ramaya namah,' should be chanted. It remones all lamentation and gives salvation to even sinners. One who regularly chants this mantra will be free from all contamination.[6.235.44-46]
"'All of the sinful rections due to wearing ashes and bones will all be destroyed and everthing will beacome auspicious due to reciting My mantra. O best of the gods, being pleased I shall destroy all sin. By My blessings, devotion to no other god than Me will arise. In your heart, worship Me who is the Supreme Being. Obey My order. Due to love for Me, everything will be auspicious for you. 'Having thus ordered Me, O goddes, He dismissed the hosts of gods who then returned to their own abodes. The gods led by Indra then requested me, 'O Mahadev, Shiva, Quickly perform those beneficial acts as instructed by Lord Vishnu.'"
Mahadeva then said to goddess Parvati, "O auspicious one, for the good of the gods I took to the way of the pasandis and started wearing skulls, hides, ashes, and bones. O auspicious one, as instructed by Lord Vishnu, I distributed the tamasic puranas and the pasandi Shiva doctrines. O sinless one, by entering Gautama and other brahmanas with my potency I proclaimed texts outside the Vedic fold. Adopting the system I gave, all of the wicked demons became averse to Lord Vishnu, and were enveloped in ignorance. Applying ashes to their bodies and performing severe penance, they stopped worship of Lord Vishnu and worshiped only me with flesh, blood and sandalwood.
"Receiving boons from me, they became intoxicated with power and pride. They were very much attached to the object of the senses, and were full of lust and anger. In that condition, devoid of goodness, they were defeated by the devas. Bereft of righteous paths, those who resort to this doctrine of mine alway go to hell.
"O goddess, thus this behavior of mine is only followed by me for the good of the gods. Following Lord Vishnu's order, I decorate myslf with ashes and bones. O goddess, these external marks are meant only for deluding the demons. In my heart I always meditate upon the Supreme Lord Vishnu and always chant His mantras. By chanting this great six-syllable mantra I taste the eternal nectar of ecstatic joy. O Lady with an auspicious face, I have answered all that you have asked me. Affectionately I ask you, what else do you desire to hear?"
Parvati said, "O sinless one, tell me about the tamasic scriptures that were composed by the brahmanas bereft of devotion to the Lord. O Lord of the demigods Please tell me their names in sequence.
Lord Shiva replied, "O goddess, please listen. In sequence I shall tell you about the tamasic texts. Simply by remembering them even wise persons become deluded. First,I Myself proclaimed the Shiva, pasupata, and related texts. After my power had entered him, Kanada preached the Vaisesika Philosophy. Similarly, Gautama preached Nyaya,and Kapila preached the atheistic Sankhya. Brihaspati preached the much-censured Charvaka doctrine, and Buddha proclaimed Buddhism to destroy the demons.
Padma Purana 6.236.7
mayavadam asac chastram pracchannam bauddham uchyate
mayaiva kalpitam devi kalau brahmana rupina
"Mayavada or Advaita philosophy is an impious, wicked belief and against all the conclusions of the Vedas. It is only covered Buddhism. My dear Parvati, in Kali-Yoga I assume the form of a brahmana (Adi Shankara) and teach this imagined philosophy.
Padma Purana 6.236.8-9
apartham sruti-vakyanam darsayan loka-garhitam
sva-karma-rupam tyajya tvam atraiva pratipadyate
sarva-karma paribhrastair vaidharma tvam tad ucyate
paresa-jiva-paraikyam maya tu pratipadyate
"This mayavada advaita philosophy preached by me (in form of Adi Shankara) deprives the words of the holy texts of their acutal meaning and thus it is condemned in the world. It recommends the renunciation of one's own duties, since those who have fallen from their duties say that the giving up of duties is religiosity. In this way, I have also falsely propounded the identity of the Supreme Lord and the individual soul."
Padma Purana 6.236.10
brahmanas caparam rupam nirgunam vaksyate maya
sarva-svam jagato py asya mohanartham kalu yuge
"In order to bewilder the atheists, in Kali-yuga, I describe the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Gauranga Krishna to be without any form and without qualities."
Padma Purana 6.236.11
vedante tu maha-sastrera mayavadam avaidikam
mayaiva vaksyate devi jagatam nasha-karanat
"Similarly, in explaning Vedanta mahashastra, I described the same non-scriptural and inauspicious mayavada philosophy in order to mislead the entire population toward atheism by denying the personal form of my beloved Lord."
[As described in the seventh chapter of adi-lila of Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita, while speaking to Prakashananda Saraswati and the mayavadi sannyasis of Benares, Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu cited these texts to show how Lord Shiva had come in Kali-yuga as Shripad Sankaracharya to propound the philosophy of monism and bewilder the souls. Cited translation of texts 7,10 and 11 are based on the translation of His Divine Grace Shrila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as found in his purport to Cc. Adi 7.110.]
Answer by BR Sadhu Swami Gaurangapada:
I think this pastime (chapter) may be found in many of the current editions of the Padma Purana. One has to purchase a Padma Purana copy printed by neutral publishers and this chapter may still be there.
The present publishers of the Puranas, both Nag and Motilal base their publications on the original Puranic texts published by Venkateshwara Steam Press in the early 1900s in Mumbai. Unfortunately, there is no trace of the authentic Puranic editions before that. It is said that the Venkateshwara Steam Press editions of the Puranas do have many Puranic sections and verses which are missing due to unavailability. The 18 Puranas have a total of 400,000 verses and the Venkateshwara Steam Press editions and the present editions do not have all these verses, which proves that some Puranic portions have been permanently lost. Some of our previous Acharyas around 200-500 years ago like the Six Goswamis (Hari Bhakti Vilasa etc), Shrila Vishvanatha Chakravati, Shrila Baladeva Vidyabhushana have quoted verses from the Puranas which cannot be found in the present-day edition of the Puranas but that does not mean they never existed. They were an integral part of the Puranas but those authentic sections were lost or were deliberately removed by selfish and unscrupulous people with ulterior motives, at some point of time. We are fully certain about the integrity and divine character of our Acharyas because they had no selfish interests and with their perfect senses, they never had any desire to cheat. They would never ever add, quote or attribute a verse to the Puranas if it did not belong there in the first place. By their divine vision, they could even see those verses which were present in the original Puranas but removed later on by people with their own agendas.
We should read those versions of Mahabaharat and Ramayan that are handed down to us by an authorised sampraday. Asampradayas like Shaktas, Shaivaites simply distort them to support their own bogus philosophies.
Haribol, prabhuji !! See , Mahabharata, Ramayan, Purana have undergone lots of distortions and interpolations. In Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, Srila Madhavacharya states---
kvachid granthAn praxipanti kvachidantaritAnapi | kuryuH kvachichcha vyatyAsaM pramAdAt kvachidanyathA || 2.3
In some places (of the Mahabharatha) verses have been interpolated and in others verses have been omitted in some places, the verses have been transposed and in others, different readings have been given out of ignorance or otherwise.
anutsannA api granthA vyAkulA iti sarvashaH | utsannAH prAyashaH sarve koTyaMsho.api na vartate || 2.4
Though the works are really indestructible, they must be deemed to be mostly altered. Mostly all of them have disappeared and not even one crore (out of several crores of slokas) now exists.
Note—The Moola Ramayana consisted of 100 crores of slokas; Pancharatra consisted of 50 crores; Mahabharatha, of 60 lakhs of slokas; other Puranas, of 4 lakhs.
grantho.apyevaM viluLitaH kimvartho devadurgamaH | kalAvevaM vyAkulite nirNayAya prachoditaH || 2.5
hariNA nirNayAn vachmi vijAna.nstatprasAdataH || 2.6
shAstrAntarANi saJNjAnan vedAMshchAsya prasAdataH |
deshe deshe tathA granthAn dR^ishhTvA chaiva pR^ithagvidhAn || 2.7
When the original work itself is so altered, What is there to say of its meaning which is intelligible (even) to the Devas only with difficulty.When the work had thus become altered in the Kali age, under the direction of Hari for its clear understanding, I shall state the settled truths having known them through His grace, and also having well known the other (extinct) works and all the Vedas through His grace, and also having examined the various editions existing in several places.
Thus Srila Madhavacharya wrote Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya where we can have authentic information about the actual events that took place in the times of Mahabharata and Ramayan. Madhavacharya clearly states his purpose of writing Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya,
"yathA sa bhagavAn vyAsaH sAxAnnArAyaNaH prabhuH |
jagAda bhAratAdyeshhu tathA vaxye tadIxayA || 2.8
saN^xepAt sarvashAstrArthaM bhAratArthAnusArataH | nirNayaH sarvashAstrANAM bhArataM parikIrtitam || 2.9
Just as the all powerful supreme Lord Vyasa who is no other than Narayana has narrated in the Bharatha and other works, I shall also, with the knowledge imparted by Him, briefly state the essential teachings of all the Sastras, in accordance with the interpretation of Bharatha. The Bharatha is stated to be the decisive authority on all the Sastras."
So in my opinion, it is better to study Mahabharat Tatparya Nirnaya which provides bonafide knowledge rather than the distorted Mahabharat of Kali-yuga. The book also covers incidents of Ramayan. Ramayan has also been distorted by the Shaktas. In Krittivasi Ramayan, Krittivas himself being a shakta, writes that Lord Ram worshipped Lord Durga and begged for her mercy and when Durga showed mercy, Lord Rama could kill Ravan and rescue Sita, an event which has got no mention in Valmiki Ramayan. That's how in Bengal, Durga is considered Supreme over Vishnu. Similarly Mahabharat too has been distorted by the Shavaites. Its better to avoid them rather than to engage in a debate. They won't listen at all. This is the effect of Kali.
Logically we cannot understand krsna and his spirituality. Where all logic ends, spirituality begins.
Gita is the essence of all scriptures . Most religious institutes, well known universities in US, UK also accept GITA. Even the Govt of India accepts that. Hence they have retained the GITA for taking oath during the court case for a hindu accused. They do not keep Ramayana or Mahabharata or any purana or upanisad. Hence it can be concluded that even the gross materialist accepts gita.
There seems to be many contradictions in the scriptures. But these contradictions are only apparent. They are really not contradictions. The most famous example is of cows stool. The vedas claim that if you touch stool, you should take bath. But it also says that cows stool is pure.
To avoid all contradictions and confusions, the most renowned saivaite acarya - Sankaracarya sings in gita mahatmya text 7-
ekam shastram devaki-putra-gitam / eko devo devaki-putra eva / eko mantras tasya namani yani / karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva
There need be only one holy scripture—the divine Gita sung by Lord Shri Krishna: only one worshipable Lord—Lord Shri Krishna: only one mantra—His holy names: and only one duty—devotional service unto that Supreme Worshipable Lord, Shri Krishna.
Also Sankaracarya tells bhaja govindam. he doesn't tell bhaja shambhum. (If one is a true follower of sankaracarya he should worship govinda.)
Hence most materialist as well as almost all spiritualists believe in gita.
But when it comes to understanding of gita they differ in opinion.
When you read bhagavad gita as it is written by prabhupada - without any doubt krsna is established as supreme personality of godhead.
Also the more you read innumerable scriptures here and there, the more you get confused. Srila prabhupada says - There is no need to study anything. If you want to gain knowledge, simply study Srimad Bhagavatam to get that knowledge.
Hence we try to preach or answer to the general populace based on the BG and SB. If they don't believe and refute with other scriptures, we can only pray for them to become a devotee. Also we should consider ourself lucky and thank krsna because we're not confused like them.
Please forgive for any mistakes.
Haribol.
From all these questions, I can only assume you are dealing with Saivites
Based on my personal experience I would highly suggest you ignore them. While we Vaishnavas have utmost regard for Lord Shiva, there are some Saivites that have no regard for Lord Krishna or Lord Vishnu and they often criticize Krsna with what I call "mumbo jumbo" examples that show that they have not studied Krsna, and if one has not studied Krsna, one has no right to refute Krsna's supremacy.
Basically, they commit Aparadha but insulting Krsna, and unknown to them, they also insult Lord Shiva, who is always thinking of Lord Krsna / Rama... and you also take a bit of the Aparadha because you are hearing it.
The thing that many people don't understand is that the relationship between Krsna and Shiva is on level different from the material platform. Here in the material world status means everything. Those that are higher have more respect than those lower and through their twisted minds they seek to establish something between God and his devotees without understanding God and his pastimes.
Now, this doesn't mean that our scriptures also seek to establish this status. No. Our scriptures are written from hard work from meditating on the Lord, the Lord revealing himself, and finally the actual compilation of the scriptures (particularly Vyasa Dev). Great sages and munis have confirmed that Lord Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Lord Brahma confirms this in the Brahma Samhita - Govindam Adi Purusham, Tam Aham Bajami - I worship the all primeval Lord known as Govinda!
Supreme Controller is Krsna - Isvarah paramah krsna (Brahma Samhita)
Krsna is Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam (Bhagavatam)
The potency of Krsna's name is three times that of Rama which is thousand times more potent then the holy name of Vishnu (Upanishads)
As you pointed out, in the Shiva Gita - Lord Shiva declares that he is the servant of Lord Rama. And we see Krsna, Rama and Parasurama worshiping Shiva for boons and benedictions. Does that mean that Krsna being God cannot worship his devotees? No.
So then why does Krsna worship Mahadeva, why does he instruct Arjuna to worship Shiva Sankar and Devi Maa? Because as Krsna emphasizes in the Gita - results come from action! It was important for Arjuna to get Shiva's blessings and the Pasupatastra to get more divine weapons and access to the heavens, which can only be done through meditation (action). It was important for Arjuna to please Goddess Durga to ensure her blessings. Remember, the Pandavas were long protected by Krsna way before the war, and were still always protected by Krsna (Narayana astra launched by Aswathama for example). But having the blessings of Durga who is a goddess of war is also necessary. Lord Rama himself worshiped Durga before his war with Ravana.
Hopefully that gives a semi-answer to some questions (again I am giving these answers for your knowledge, not to refute others).
"6. We have heard about the pre vedic images of lord shiva found during excavation & phallus worship. But we have not found any thing of such period in excavations on lord vishnu. So , was lord vishnu's worship not popular or prevalent?"
Hmm I can't say anything about this, but if what I have heard is true, then Muslims are worshipers of Shiva, thus it could also be that Muslims destroyed Vishnu temples (which has happened in the past during Muslim invasions)... but I don't want to point fingers... this is not a fact, just a thought.
I can't answer 8 as I haven't studied the Krsna and Uddhava's discussion yet, but for #7 and #9: I have heard both arguments and they cite silly examples. For example Krsna in the Gita keeps switching back between "I" and "Supreme Lord" so people think that Krsna is being "possessed" by someone else when he says I... no that is simply foolishness. It is rather obvious to those who are devotees of the Lord that Krsna is always talking about himself, even in the third person. #9 is an assumption, there are no hard core facts proving otherwise, and thus is nothing but a waste of time. I haven't read the original Mahabharata thus I don't know if it gives an approximations, but let's look at it logically. Krsna knows that this is a battlefield, thus he isn't going to waste time and going very slowly. It's a basic conversation. Arjuna asks questions, Krsna answers them...
The last two questions deal with Lord Shiva so I am going to avoid answering them. It doesn't matter who gives who what, that isn't the goal of life. We worship who we love. I love Krsna and I have utmost respect for Lord Shiva (though I will admit after having some conversations with Saivites my mind was restless and I am sure I must have committed Vaishnava Aparadha).
Honestly, don't let people's need to argue and debate stir your from KC... let them believe what they want to, and you believe in what you want to. Vaishnava Aparadha is very dangerous, avoid it at all. You may be arguing in Krsna's favor, but if you criticize Lord Shiva, even indirectly, Krsna will not be happy with you. So I again, highly recommend you to ignore and cover your ears to those who wish to discuss who is supreme - Krsna or Shiva because some Saivites will criticize Krsna, and by doing so insults Lord Shiva, and by insulting Lord Shiva one is committing great offense. We as Vaishnavas may also do the same, and create great offense that hurts Srimati Radharani and Balarama.
Please forgive me for anything that I have written that was inaccurate or offensive. My intentions were surely not that.
Ys,