I'd like to talk about the issue of karma and justice.
I'll start with quoting an article on Krishna.com by Kundalini Dasa that states “the innocent suffer because they are not innocent” and “divine justice is perfectly meted out; no one suffers or prospers undeservedly” (http://www.krishna.com/karma-and-origin-evil), and then Radnhanath Swami's book “The Journey Within”: “During World War II, some people lied to Nazi Gestapo to protect innocent families from being killed; they are honored for their courage and compassion.”
The two authors seem to be at odds here, and I believe it illustrates a deeper contradiction. Let's look at the Nazi example. The people who lied to the Gestapo displayed “courage and compassion”, qualities that only mean something if there is free will and responsibility for one's actions. So we can assume those people could have acted otherwise and let the innocent families suffer. But Kundalini Dasa claims innocent suffer because they are not innocent! How can this be reconciled? The families are innocent until they suffer, and then they're not anymore? If the people who lied to the Gestapo believed in “no innocents” idea, shouldn't they have let the Gestapo take their due and do “God's justice”?
What becomes of the idea of justice anyway under the doctrine of karma? If every suffering is automatically just, shouldn't we give totalitarian regimes free reign and not try to protect the nonexistent “innocent”? How can one genuinely fight for justice if they believe injustice is rendered impossible by the fabric of the universe? If injustice is impossible, doesn't the very word “justice” lose its meaning?
Do we then have any right to condemn or prevent harmful actions by individuals, if all they do is “perfectly mete out divine justice”, and their victims are just getting their due? Shouldn't we treat rapists and murderers more like judges delivering just sentences? Is it not logically impossible to condemn an action and deem its result as perfeclty just in the same brteath?
I've come to a conclusion that injustice is real, that's the price we pay for having free will. The idea of “perfect divine justice” in this imperfect universe sounds good, but it in my opinion it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and seems impossible to be lived.
Replies
Hare Krsna Prabhuji,
PAMHO.
I will attempt to explain with the help of the examples you have quoted.
A lot of people perished at the hands of the Gestapo, some few were saved, because of help and cooperation from people who lied to save them. This is a clear case of karma - they did some bad karma to get to the point where they could have been terminated, but they also had some good karma to their account that motivated others to lie to save them.
What we face in this birth is the result of karma done in previous life. Similarly, what we do in this life is building up our next body and the course that life will take. To that extent, we have free will - we are always faced with choices, our free will is to exercise the choice as per our nature and circumstances. The choices that we face are because of our past karma - the choice we make in this birth is a factor of this birth's karma also.
The totalitarian regimes that do injustice to the masses are building up their karma and may be demons who have come to create havoc. Trying to protect from injustice is good karma and should be done.
The idea is that when one sees or hears of a gross injustice done to someone, one should have faith in the laws of nature to mete out adequate punishment to the predator. One should not become disturbed and affect one's sadhana. However, it does not mean that one should not be punished for doing a wrongful act. By punishing a murder or rape, the state is helping nature to mete out justice, at the same time, the karma of the predator is getting nullified in the same birth, ensuring that so much interest does not add up to the karma to make the justice done at a future birth unbearable.
The idea of "perfect divine justice" holds good if one is open to the concept of multiple births and action and reaction being spread over many births. THe basic faith in multiple births, existence of soul, existence of God has to be there, otherwise with a myopic vision of life being a single birth, its impossible to understand.
Haribol,
Your servant,
Radha Rasamayi DD
I don't know much but the I found that the introduction of Bhagavad Gita perfectly answers whatever is needed. Namely pages 10-13 in the smaller, concise version and 8-11 in the Normal sized version. Again, am not qualified to say much but you've mentioned examples without considering past life karmic activities. Sometimes, we don't get the reactions of our Karma immediately but we have to take birth again to balance it. I apologise if I didn't answer your question perfectly or if I didn't get your question. Hare Krishna.
The idea of Karma and the divine Justice are neither logically nor really consistent.
The "karma" is fully dependent on the free wills of a living entity.However, "the perfect divine justice" is working under the instruction of the Supreme Personality of God Head Krishna.
As stated in B.G.9.10
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation, but the management is being conducted by material nature............
Also, to support above statement, you should remember a nice verse in B.G.
Bg 4.14
na me karma-phale spṛhā
iti māṁ yo ’bhijānāti
karmabhir na sa badhyate
As there are constitutional laws in the material world stating that the king can do no wrong, or that the king is not to the state laws, similarly the Lord, although He is the creator of this material world, is not affected by the activities of the material world. He creates and remains aloof from the creation, whereas the living entities are entangled in the fruitive results of material activities because of their propensity for lording it over material resources. The proprietor of an establishment is not responsible for the right and wrong activities of the workers, but the workers are themselves responsible. The living entities are engaged in their respective activities of sense gratification, and these activities are not ordained by the Lord. For advancement of sense gratification, the living entities are engaged in the work of this world, and they aspire to heavenly happiness after death. The Lord, being full in Himself, has no attraction for so-called heavenly happiness...............
Again, H.G. Kundalini Prabhu's statement is right. He stated,"the innocent suffer because they are not innocent”means in reality only a true vaishnava is innocent and simple. For example,the Gopis in Vrindavan were innoncent girls.However, all other except vaishnavas are cheater and have cheating propensity out of other four common defects of human form of life. So,they are not really innocent. So, these so called innocent have to suffer for their Karma.
Furthermore, from the Book of H.H. Radhanatha Swami, what you have quoted that the disclosing fact to Gestapo was "corageous and compassion" although they lied. Yes, they did the justice according to the doctrine of Manu Samhita. It is stated in Manu Samhita that if you can save a life by telling a lie is not considered as a lie.
Also, you stated,What becomes of the idea of justice anyway under the doctrine of karma? If every suffering is automatically just, shouldn't we give totalitarian regimes free reign and not try to protect the nonexistent “innocent”? How can one genuinely fight for justice if they believe injustice is rendered impossible by the fabric of the universe? If injustice is impossible, doesn't the very word “justice” lose its meaning?
Look, one of the instinct of human life is to make or commit mistake. No one can avoid it. However, one who has taken shelter of Vasudev through His bona fide devotee,surely becomes aware of his/her mistake and rectify it through the nine different devotional services to the Supreme Lord. Thus,he becomes immune to his sinful or bad karmas. As confirmed by the Lord Himself,
Bg 18.66
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ
So, Krishna takes over all the activities of a pure devotees.
Yes, you are right that we should not be immune of getting Justice. Justice will prevail either you want or don't want.Krishna is the emblem of Justice. When a living entities for example the demons in this society over burden the mother earth with so many injustices,the Lord descends to protect His beloved devotees and cows. So,we can not loose or hopeless of the term " justice".
You stated, we then have any right to condemn or prevent harmful actions by individuals, if all they do is “perfectly mete out divine justice”, and their victims are just getting their due? Shouldn't we treat rapists and murderers more like judges delivering just sentences? Is it not logically impossible to condemn an action and deem its result as perfeclty just in the same brteath?
Remember,Lord Jesus instructed,"Do not hate the person who did crimes;rather,hate to the crime he did". Again, you don't have to treat badly to them which will enhance their mentality to commit more the sinful actions. However,you can treat them with nice Krishna- prasadam and Prabhupad trancedental books. Of course,there are so many Correction centers are there under the local Governments.
Your conclusion is wrong:
No, the injustice is not real. But Justice is real. You have the choice to go either for Good Karma or go for Bad Karma.Just to tame your free will to bring under your control, you must have to go through Bhakti yoga under a bona fide Spiritual master. Although you will have free wills, but it will act upon you as a serpent with no fangs (with no poisonous teeth) under Krishna Consciousness.
Hope, my this little endeavor will remove your speculation in some extent.
Thank you,
Hare Krishna!