If the soul was created then how was it always existing ?

Hare Krishna dear devotees,

The soul was manifested from the cit shakti of Krishna. However in Bhagavata Gita it is clearly stated that the soul has always been into existence. How can it be possible that the soul was created and was also always existing ? Either the soul was created or it was always existing because if the soul was created then before it was created obviously it did not exist. In Jaiva Dharma the answer is given that in the spiritual world there is no time so there is nothing like time of creation. However still even if there is no time in the spiritual world how can the jiva exist before it was created ?

Following is from Jaiva Dharma which I find difficult to understand so I request someone to guide me with it-

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so

are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be

created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of

time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we

accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material

world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual

world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present

and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided,

eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is

eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the

jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say - "The jivas

were created," "The spiritual world was manifested," or "There is

no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas," - material

time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This

is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the

influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva

and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future

always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can

discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal

present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions

of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter.

Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description

that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

ys,

Mihir.

Allow me to reply to your question with another question:

When did everything begin? Or even more specific, when was the spiritual world created?

Krsna himself is eternal, he is the beginning the middle and the end as stated in the Gita. The question of creation only exists in the material sense. Lord Brahma was CREATED, the material world was CREATED, Universes are CREATED. Further that which is created also gets destroyed. Our material bodies are both CREATED and DESTROYED. Lord Brahma DIES, the material world will be DESTROYED, and of course, universes are DESTROYED.

Thus, if the soul was never born nor never dies, then how can the soul be created?

As Babaji states, the jurisdiction of time only occurs in the material world which is defined by past, present, and future. In the spiritual world, there is no such thing as time because everything there is eternal. Even if we assume that we are "created" then we have to accept two things - we get destroyed (that which is created / born must die), and if we accept that we get destroyed then we must also accept that we are not parts and parcels of Krsna. Both of which are untrue.

To add, I have heard many times in lectures that we come from the spiritual world because we have fallen due to material and selfish desires. So using that logic, would it be correct to state that the material world was created after jiva-atmas have desires in the spiritual world to enjoy or in other words, when jiva-atmas were manifested, they were done so in the spiritual world? I'm limited in knowledge so I don't want to use an assumption as fact, but I pose a serious question.

My final statement is a basic look at the definition of manifest and create:

MANIFEST:

adj.

Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. See Synonyms at apparent.

tr.v. man·i·fest·ed, man·i·fest·ing, man·i·fests
1. To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal: "Mercedes . . . manifested the chaotic abandonment of hysteria" (Jack London).

2. To be evidence of; prove.

3.a. To record in a ship's manifest. / b. To display or present a manifest of (cargo).

n.
1. A list of cargo or passengers carried on a ship or plane.

2. An invoice of goods carried on a truck or train.

3. A list of railroad cars according to owner and location.

CREATE

tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates

1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found¹.

2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.

3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.

4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

While it seems like we are created definition wise, the clear use of "manifest" significantly changes the meaning. Finally, If Krsna is the flame or the sun, then we as jiva-atmas are either the sparks or the rays (of light, not gamma, UV, etc), respectively. The sparks and rays are not created by the sun, it's just a distant manifestation of the original.

Please take everything I said with a grain of salt. I am nowhere as intelligent or have studied the scriptures as many other devotees on here. Thus, please forgive and correct any of my mistakes because it's only through that one can learn :)

Hopefully this makes some sense,

Hare Krishna,

Replies

This reply was deleted.
- Volunteer
  
  Mohini Madhavi July 3, 2013 at 1:00pm
  
  yes, but because in the beginning it was in unmanifested form in Krishna's body so we call it as creation but it was already there from the time immemorial since Krishna is eternal with no end and beginning, isn't it?!
  
  And it says that there is not end for material world and no end to spiritual world also. It will be so that even if all living entities go to Vaikuntha this material world will be filled up with new jivas again, coming out from the spiritual body of Maha Vishnu - Krishna.
  
  And at the same time in spiritual world everything is ever growing in size and quantity and in quality.
  
  Gopis become beautiful to make Krishna happy, Krishna becomes even more beautiful to make them happy...they become even more beautiful...in this way the size of the spiritual world is increasing always. Krishna can not understand Himself because His attractiveness is also increasing that is the specialty of spiritual world.
  
  There is no time for being bored with routine things.
  
  All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
  
  Your servant,
Volunteer

Radhe July 3, 2013 at 4:50am

Allow me to reply to your question with another question:

When did everything begin? Or even more specific, when was the spiritual world created?

Krsna himself is eternal, he is the beginning the middle and the end as stated in the Gita. The question of creation only exists in the material sense. Lord Brahma was CREATED, the material world was CREATED, Universes are CREATED. Further that which is created also gets destroyed. Our material bodies are both CREATED and DESTROYED. Lord Brahma DIES, the material world will be DESTROYED, and of course, universes are DESTROYED.

Thus, if the soul was never born nor never dies, then how can the soul be created?

As Babaji states, the jurisdiction of time only occurs in the material world which is defined by past, present, and future. In the spiritual world, there is no such thing as time because everything there is eternal. Even if we assume that we are "created" then we have to accept two things - we get destroyed (that which is created / born must die), and if we accept that we get destroyed then we must also accept that we are not parts and parcels of Krsna. Both of which are untrue.

To add, I have heard many times in lectures that we come from the spiritual world because we have fallen due to material and selfish desires. So using that logic, would it be correct to state that the material world was created after jiva-atmas have desires in the spiritual world to enjoy or in other words, when jiva-atmas were manifested, they were done so in the spiritual world? I'm limited in knowledge so I don't want to use an assumption as fact, but I pose a serious question.

My final statement is a basic look at the definition of manifest and create:

MANIFEST:

adj.

Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. See Synonyms at apparent.

tr.v. man·i·fest·ed, man·i·fest·ing, man·i·fests
1. To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal: "Mercedes . . . manifested the chaotic abandonment of hysteria" (Jack London).

2. To be evidence of; prove.

3.a. To record in a ship's manifest. / b. To display or present a manifest of (cargo).

n.
1. A list of cargo or passengers carried on a ship or plane.

2. An invoice of goods carried on a truck or train.

3. A list of railroad cars according to owner and location.

CREATE

tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates

1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found¹.

2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.

3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.

4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

While it seems like we are created definition wise, the clear use of "manifest" significantly changes the meaning. Finally, If Krsna is the flame or the sun, then we as jiva-atmas are either the sparks or the rays (of light, not gamma, UV, etc), respectively. The sparks and rays are not created by the sun, it's just a distant manifestation of the original.

Please take everything I said with a grain of salt. I am nowhere as intelligent or have studied the scriptures as many other devotees on here. Thus, please forgive and correct any of my mistakes because it's only through that one can learn :)

Hopefully this makes some sense,

Hare Krishna,

YS

apparent

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of apparent by The Free Dictionary
- Shubham > Radhe July 3, 2013 at 10:20am
  
  Hari Bol Prabhu ji!
  
  Jai Nityananda Gauranga
  
  Jai Acharyas, Vaishnavas, Holy Names and devotional service!!
  
  This verse confuses about eternality of spirit:
  
  aham sarvasya prabhavo
  
  mattah sarvam pravartate
  
  iti matva bhajante mam
  
  budha bhava-samanvitah
  
  SYNONYMS
  
  aham -- I; sarvasya -- of all; prabhavah -- the source of generation; mattah -- from Me; sarvam -- everything; pravartate -- emanates; iti -- thus; matva -- knowing; bhajante -- become devoted; mam -- unto Me; budhah -- the learned; bhava-samanvitah -- with great attention.
  
  TRANSLATION
  
  I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.

This reply was deleted.