Forum

How to prove in an argument that Krishna has form

Posted by 39vmjbk85mwcy on November 14, 2015 at 2:03am in Krishna

Hare Krsna!!

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!!

Hello. I watched a a debate on youtube by Bhakti Rasamrita Swami validating the fact that God has form, Here. He says that only from form can come formlessness, not the other way around like some people believe. I have been arguing with a friend of mine for quite some time and I need to make some stronger points. Can anyone recommend some strong arguments i can use? The argument is that by giving God form you are limiting him. I'd appreciate any comments. Thank you. Jai

You need to be a member of ISKCON Desire Tree | IDT to add comments!

Join ISKCON Desire Tree | IDT

Email me when people reply –
Follow

Replies

  • E-Counselor
    Radha Rasamayi DD November 17, 2015 at 1:58pm

    Hare Krsna Prabhuji,

    PAMHO.

    I vaguely remember one incident that happened in a Gulf country airport (I think with HH Radhanath Maharaj). The senior airport official was talking with Maharaj (flight was delayed) and in the middle stopped to offer namaz. Maharaj subtly asked him - will your God hear your prayers - to which he answered yes. Then Maharaj asked, will He answer your prayers - to which he replied yes. Then Maharaj asked, can He see everyone - again answer was yes.

    Then Maharaj said - so your God can see, hear, answer prayers, then how is He formless?

    Something to this effect.

    By saying God is formless, we are limiting God. We are not even attributing a form to God. He has got form, the formless is the effulgence around Him whihc itself can stop anyone from seeing Him.

    I hope this helps.

    Haribol,

    YOur servant,

    Radha Rasamayi DD

  • Susakha Shyamasundara Das November 16, 2015 at 2:00pm

    Hare Krishna Prabhu,

    Your friends argument is "by giving GOD form you are limiting him".

    But it is other way around,

    But not accepting the GOD has from you are making him limited.Limited than human being.

    If we have form then why can't GOD has a form.If you say GOD can't have form then you are saying his power is limit.He can't do something which we can do.

    Scriptures says Janmady asya yathah - GOD is the source of everything.

    So,what ever we can see in this world difinitly GOD is the source.Without krishna having this form we can't have.Just like we got this from because our mother and father has a form.So,Form comes from form.It is very simple and logical.

    But GOD is all powerful and he can do anything and everything without anyones help.So,why can't he has form.

    In Bible It is said " God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genisis 1.27

    In Bagavat Gita krishna said ,

    Chapter 7: Knowledge of the Absolute

    TEXT 24
    avyaktam vyaktim apannam
    manyante mam abuddhayah
    param bhavam ajananto
    mamavyayam anuttamam
    SYNONYMS
    avyaktam—nonmanifested; vyaktim—personality; āpannam—achieved;manyante—think; mām—unto Me; abuddhayaḥ—less intelligent persons; param—supreme; bhāvam—state of being; ajānantaḥ—without knowing; mama—My;avyayam—imperishable; anuttamam—the finest.
    TRANSLATION
    Unintelligent men, who know Me not, think that I have assumed this form and personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is changeless and supreme.
    PURPORT
    Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Kṛṣṇa in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yāmunācārya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession from Rāmānujācārya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says, "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyāsadeva and Nārada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedānta and the Upaniṣads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead."
    In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedānta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only the worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedānta and speculation on Vedic literature without any tinge of true Kṛṣṇa consciousness are also less intelligent, and for them it is not possible to understand God's personal nature. Persons who are under the impression that the Absolute Truth is impersonal are described as asuras, which means one who does not know the ultimate feature of the Absolute Truth. In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam it is stated that supreme realization begins from the impersonal Brahman and then rises to the localized Supersoul-but the ultimate word in the Absolute Truth is the Personality of Godhead. Modern impersonalists are still less intelligent, for they do not even follow their great predecessor, Śaṅkarācārya, who has specifically stated that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Impersonalists, therefore, not knowing the Supreme Truth, think Kṛṣṇa to be only the son of Devakī and Vasudeva, or a prince, or a powerful living entity. This is also condemned in Bhagavad-gītā: "Only the fools regard Me as an ordinary person." The fact is that no one can understand Kṛṣṇa without rendering devotional service and without developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The Gītā confirms this.
    One cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, or His form, quality or name simply by mental speculation or by discussing Vedic literature. One must understand Him by devotional service. When one is fully engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, beginning by chanting the mahāmantra-Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare-then only can one understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nondevotee impersonalists think that Kṛṣṇa has a body made of this material nature and that all His activities, His form and everything, are māyā. These impersonalists are known as Māyāvādī. They do not know the ultimate truth.
    The twentieth verse clearly states: "Those who are blinded by lusty desires surrender unto the different demigods." It is accepted that besides the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are demigods who have their different planets (Bg.7.23), and the Lord also has a planet. It is also stated that the worshipers of the demigods go to the different planets of the demigods, and those who are devotees of Lord Kṛṣṇa go to the Kṛṣṇaloka planet. Although this is clearly stated, the foolish impersonalists still maintain that the Lord is formless and that these forms are impositions. From the study of the Gītā does it appear that the demigods and their abodes are impersonal? Clearly, neither the demigods nor Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are impersonal. They are all persons; Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He has His own planet, and the demigods have theirs.
    Therefore the monistic contention that ultimate truth is formless and that form is imposed does not hold true. It is clearly stated here that it is not imposed. From the Gītā we can clearly understand that the forms of the demigods and the form of the Supreme Lord are simultaneously existing and that Lord Kṛṣṇa is sac-cid-ānanda, eternal blissful knowledge. The Vedas also confirm that the Supreme Absolute Truth is ānandamaya, or full of blissful pleasure, and that He is abhyāsāt,by nature the reservoir of unlimited auspicious qualities. And in the Gītā the Lord says that although He is aja (unborn), He still appears. These are the facts that we should understand from the Gītā. We cannot understand how the Supreme Personality of Godhead can be impersonal; the imposition theory of the impersonalist monist is false as far as the statements of the Gītā are concerned. It is clear herein that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Lord Kṛṣṇa, has both form and personality.
    You can also refer to Bramha Samhita 
    Hope this helps.
    All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.
    Hare Krishna
    Your servant,
    Suskha Shyamasundara Das.

  • 3ruf705dlznca November 15, 2015 at 2:51am

    SB 3.29.36 — This puruṣa whom the individual soul must approach is the eternal form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Brahman and Paramātmā. He is the transcendental chief personality, and His activities are all spiritual.

    .

    We can see here there that Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as impersonal Brahman and Paramatma, therefore there is no difference between them. Those who knows that knows God as He really is.

    SB 1.2.11 — Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.

    This three eternal aspects of God, bhagavan, param brahman and param atma are never born, they always existed, and because of that, its impossible to talk about birth of one or another. 

This reply was deleted.