Hare Krishna!
Please accept my humble obeisances to all devotees.
My question today is that if, in the spiritual world, there is no room for envy, anger, rebellion etc. how did we ever rebel against the Lord?. How in such an impeccably pure atmosphere of the Vaikuntha did the thought of rebellion arise in our minds?. Please enlighten me on this.
Yours Devotedly,
Avinash G.
Jai shree Krishna!
Replies
Jiva and his falldown (source: www.veda.harekrsna.cz)
In the second chapter of his book Brahmana and Vaisnava entitled Harijana-khanda (page 86 in ISKCON edition from 1999), Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states:
"Who are the Harijanas, or Vaisnavas, and what makes them different from the nondevotees? I am quoting various evidence from the scriptures and sentiments of devotees in this Hari-jana-khanda to answer these questions.
"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD [emphasis mine], he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.
"The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and nondevotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.
"Maya, the external energy of the Supreme Lord, then induces the marginal living entity to enjoy this world through her covering and throwing potencies and thus shows the living entity the reality of being averse to the Lord's service.
"At that time the living entity considers himself the king of enjoyers, and being situated in the mode passion he takes the position of Brahma and creates progeny. The living entities who are born from Brahma, the grandfather of everyone, expand themselves in families of Aryans and brahmanas. In this world of duality, however, living entities who are covered and thrown under the control of the external energy naturally become envious. This enviousness further creates pride, illusion, greed, anger, and lust and induces the living entities to dance frantically in aversion to the Lord. At that time they forget both that they were born from Grandfather Brahma and the Lord's instructions in the Vedas.
"And on the platform of progress, if a living entity cultivates transcendental sound vibration and revives the process of remembering the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, he then achieves scientific spiritual knowledge. By this process, all anarthas are destroyed and he becomes situated in a supremely auspicious position.
"The mood that arises when one is manipulating his senses is called vilasa, or enjoyment. The meaning of vairagya, or renunciation, is to become averse to the accumulation of sensual knowledge. The conditioned souls who are overwhelmed by the illusory energy of Hari become temporary enjoyers of this world under the control of Maya's covering and throwing potencies. But if such persons fortunately meet devotees who are constantly remembering Krsna, then they can give up insignificant material enjoyment and receive the opportunity to attain transcendental knowledge.
"Although due to forgetfulness of Krsna the perverted movement of the senses is considered temporary and adverse, when they are properly employed in eternal subjects their disease of transience is destroyed and they give up the desire to embrace such transient objects. Then that person appreciates the following verse from the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which is the mercy of Sri Sanatana and compiled by Srila Gopala Bhatta, the disciple of Tridandipada Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati, who was a servant of Sri Gauranga and born in an Andhra brahmana family.
gRhIta-viSNu dIkSAko
viSNu-pUjA-paro naraH
vaiSNavo 'bhihito 'bhijJair
itaro 'smAd avaiSNavaH
"One who is initiated into Sri Visnu's mantras and who is devoted to worshiping Lord Visnu is called a Vaisnava by those who are learned. One who is devoid of these practices in not a Vaisnava." (Haribhaktivilasa 1.55)
"Although the eternal living entity is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord, due to his indifference towards the eternal service of the Lord he is eligible for being controlled by Maya. When one tries to measure material objects with his sensual knowledge, he simply increases his enjoying propensity day after day. That he is eligible for achieving transcendental knowledge - this ancient memory he also often forgets. As a result of being covered and thrown and considering himself the enjoyer of this world, such a person has no power to discriminate between good and bad, rather he considers temporary and unreal subjects as permanent and favorable for his enjoyment."
The jiva is the eternal servant of Krsna because he "is constitutionally favorably inclined towards the Supreme Lord", but before falling down he serves Him only in santa-rasa which in fact is not direct pure devotional service. As for the higher rasas, Srila Prabhupada says that the pure devotee can never forget Krsna and we cannot argue with that.
"The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual soul comes under maya's control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world." (Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Jaiva Dharma 1)
Dear Avinash Ji,
Kindly read Jaiva Dharma for reference. You can see the below link for audio also. Chapter 7, 14-17 has some topics about the jiva tattwa. Please remember NO ONE FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA
http://bvml.org/SBTP/JD/index.html
http://srilanarayanmaharaja.com/jd/
Hare Krsna,
My obeisances to all devotees, guru and gauranga.
Avinash Gopalkrishnan, I can relate to your question as the same question was bugging me big time to understand the whole soul concept and the falling down from the spiritual world funda. Although I cannot confidently answer your question, I will provide you my understanding so far. It may not be perfect but this is what my quest has given me so far.. My response is a bit long worded, so please excuse me for a lengthy post.
Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over the world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities, the products of the Deluding Potency.
The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that...
Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or properly use his independence . . . The souls in the tatastha position are not one, but many in number. They are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit Sakti or unalloyed Acit or Maya Sakti. In the tatastha position, souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent (lazy or wanting to avoid activity or exertion) stage.
How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world? This is a broad question, which requires some background information.
There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.
The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.
Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed (why and how, I am not sure) and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious (this is where yours and my question are lying) units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication. Consciousness cannot jump at once into the conception of matter; it must pass through a process to come to material consciousness. consciousness comes into the stage of matter, material conception, we experience a kind of vague consciousness; first there is hazy consciousness and then material consciousness. But everything has its spiritual side. And as eternal souls, our direct connection is really only with the conscious aspect of existence. The basis of all things material is consciousness, which is spiritual.
Now you may ask: Do the jiva souls in the marginal or tatastha position have knowledge that there is an upper and a lower world, that there is suffering in the material world and divine service in the spiritual world?
The marginal soul (tatastha) has only seed adaptability towards both. He is situated in the margin between the spiritual and material worlds, and the margin strictly means that one is in a position to analyze adaptability. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. The possibility of either is there in potentiality, but he is left to exercise his freedom. Because the soul is a conscious unit, he has free will. Freedom is inseparable from consciousness. A conscious unit and freedom are one and the same. Conscious atom means endowed with freedom. Without freedom, it is matter.
One may ask: does the soul have knowledge of the different aspects of reality?
Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective-there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself/herself.
The first cause of our entanglement with material nature was our mixing with maya in a play of curiosity. But as much as we make friends with her, so much she comes to devour us. ln this way we are in the clutches of maya. But in the beginning our involvement was very slight, like one experimenting with drugs. The beginning of our play with maya involved the voluntary misuse of our free will, and that has led us to this present stage where maya has devoured us. Maya means our attraction for intoxication: where there is love of exploitation, there is maya. And truth is the opposite of exploitation. Truth is found in dedicating everything for the center, for Krsna.
I must have bored you with the info. if I did I apologise and hope that my response helped you in some way prabhu.
Hare krsna
Hare Krsna,
My obeisances to all devotees, guru and gauranga.
As Mario Sabato Veyrand prabhu has mentioned already, we originate from the tatastha stage, When Maha Vishnu impregnates this material universe, we come into existence from our deep insignificant slumber.. once we are out, its like being on a main street with Vaikunta on one side and mundane material world on the other. This is the tatastha stage. (see the image attached).
We have to eventually choose one side. Now the decision we make again depends on the consciousness that we had while leaving our previous bodies. If the consciousness was already liberated, then we will go to Vaikunta. If the consicousness is polluted or if we still need to further our spiritual progress, then our consciousness will make get attracted towards the material world. This is called the fall down.
Once we come down and acquire Krsna prema through chanting his glorious names, we finally go to Goloka Vrindavan and NEVER fall down. This could take many many lives and births though. If we end up getting attracted to maya again, then the cycle just goes on endlessly...
I had a similar question a while ago but was not answered. So, having read the books and discussions with other devotees, this is what my understanding is so far. It might not be perfect or correct understanding but its just my two cents of limited knowledge prabhu..
Hope I was able to help you in some way.
Chant and be happy!!!
Hare krsna
Hare krishna
According to vaishnav philosophy, we have never touched vaikuntha,nor anything. We are the marginal energy of Lord Hari, and when God created us, He made us choose Vaikunth, or material universe. SOme choosed vaikunta, and if they want to go to golok they have to come earth and do appropiate sadhana to get Krsnaloka. Other wanted to come to material world.
We are tatashta shakti, so there is another explanation that we where in vaikunta (which is not the highest, the perfection of life) so we wanted to enjoy. Krishna made material world and all humans of earth have come as representatives of Vishnu as Lord Brahma, but we got in loved with our material creation and wanted to enjoy it. So we fell down from our exalted position as a servant of God. Maya caught us and we wanted to be God.