Hare Krishna ,
This discussion is extension to advaitva vedant theory ,
Ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti—"that which exists is One: sages call it by various names
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Hare Krishna Xion prabhu. Dandavat Pranam. All Glories All Glories to HDG AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA
In the whole discussion you were not able to provide a single evidence from Shruti shastra to back up your irrational, baseless statement which is without any support from the Shruti shastra and beating the same old boring broken drum to convience devotees. Do you think with this insufficient evidence Devotees would change their mind and accept what are you saying? .................If so then it is foolishness.
You are giving the translation you got from some concocted pseudo , not bonafide so called spiritualist. We are not going to accept your version of translation. Even Bhagavad gita has been translated by so many mundane philosophers to fructify their personal motives.
So it would be better you go on following what ever you like, but also keep in mind KRISHNA is SUPREME.
mattaḥ parataraḿ nānyat
kiñcid asti dhanañjaya
mayi sarvam idaḿ protaḿ
sūtre maṇi-gaṇā iva
BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.
And it is not that Krishna only saying this, It is also accepted by Vyasa, Asita, Kapila,Narada and later on Shankaracharya (Leader of Impersonalists), Ramanujacharya, Madhvacharya, Lord Chaitanya, Srila Prabhupada.And remember once again these personalities never recommended Shiv Gita, DeviGita....this Gita that Gita.........There is only ONE GITA THAT IS BHAGAVAD GITA.............SPOKEN BY SRI HARI HIMSELF
SO if you think that you are greater authority than the above mentioned personalities then the person who has brainwashed you must have great capability......:)
GaurPremanande Hari Hari Bol
Hare Krishna Nixon Prabhu. Dandavat Pranam. All All Glories to HDG AC BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI Srila PRABHUPADA
/*This is where the Impersonal Philosophy or I would say Trika Saivism is alot better than any other regarding the Whole process of creation starting from Absolute Consciousness, out of all the scriptures I have read Trika explains the most perfect and makes the most sense out of them all. I am sorry to say but Logic concludes Creation will always take place not because simply we fall down, because its the very nature of the Supreme to create*/
IT is not just I like any theory and that is authentic. Veda doesn't support the theory you have mentioned, Its not Vedic , you know why?
"VEDIC CONCLUSION REGARDING CREATION IS WE WERE NEVER CREATED , WE WERE ALWAYS EXISTED"
Most of the people holds the view that God has created the living entities. But it is a misconception. We were never created. WE WERE EXISTED AS A PART ALONG WITH GOD just like "MINUTE SPARKS EXISTED ALONG WITH FIRE". ~ This is the vedic injuction. And it is cleared in Bhagavad Gita
BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
In the Vedas, in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad as well as in the Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities, in terms of their different situations according to individual work and reaction of work:
nityo nityānāḿ cetanaś cetanānām
eko bahūnāḿ yo vidadhāti kāmān
tam ātma-sthaḿ ye 'nupaśyanti dhīrās
teṣāḿ śāntiḥ śāśvatī netareṣām (Katha Upanisads)
The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge. The Lord says clearly that He Himself, Arjuna and all the kings who are assembled on the battlefield are eternally individual beings and that the Lord is eternally the maintainer of the individual living entities both in their conditioned and in their liberated situations. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme individual person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain eternal persons. Their individuality existed in the past, and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore, there is no cause for lamentation for anyone.
The Māyāvādī theory that after liberation the individual soul, separated by the covering of māyā, or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman and lose its individual existence is not supported herein by Lord Kṛṣṇa, the supreme authority. Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Kṛṣṇa clearly says herein that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upaniṣads, will continue eternally.
BG 15.7: The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.
In this verse the identity of the living being is clearly given. The living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord — eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented.
The words mamaivāḿśaḥ ("fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord") are also very significant. The fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is not like some material broken part. We have already understood in the Second Chapter that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces. This fragment is not materially conceived. It is not like matter, which can be cut into pieces and joined together again. That conception is not applicable here, because the Sanskrit word sanātana ("eternal") is used. The fragmental portion is eternal. It is also stated in the beginning of the Second Chapter that in each and every individual body the fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is present (dehino 'smin yathā dehe). That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one with the Lord, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold.
SO WHATEVER THEORY YOU ARE FOLLOWING YOU FOLLOW, BUT DON'T NAME IS VEDIC. ITS NOT AT ALL VEDIC. ITS CAME FROM SOMEONE'S OWN NOTION.
WE WERE NEVER CREATED, WE ALWAYS EXISTED BEFORE. AFTER AND WILL IN FUTURE AS A PART OF GOD.
It is ridiculous theory that GOD created us, THE THEORY THAT THERE IS A HOMOGENEOUS ALL-PERVADING SOUL AND HE IS CREATING THE LIVING ENTITIES OUT OF IT , IT IS AGAINST THE VEDIC INJUNCTION
BG 2.23: The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.
because soul can't be cut, then how come homogeneous all pervading consciousness creating soul out of his body. It must be eternally existent. Thats why the theory you are mentioning against VEDAS.
The fact is living entities always existed along with god as a part , but God is the leader and He gives facilities thus living entities can fullfill there desires seperately thats why creation happens. Its not that God wanted to create, It is we wanted to be separate from him and He created the whole material existence.
You said the GOD is creating every moment, then according to your theory living entitiy has no independence, GOD is playing and living entities are being played. Then God would have been a person someone like Hitler, who creates for own enjoyment. Then where will be the question of minute independence of living entities and the Karma theory ?? BUT the fact is all vedas clearly says that it is not GOD for whom we are suffering here, its our own karma that dragged us here, So GOD dosen't creates us but facilitate us ..............
we also accept the all pervading consciousness exist every where, but that is not all in all. IT is one of the aspect of the supreme in his supersoul expansion. It is like
"THE SUNSHINE COMING FROM SUN, THOUGH SUNSHINE AND SUN DISC ARE NON DIFFERENT BUT STILL SUNSHINE IS NOT SUN"
"IN A ROOM THE LIGHT IS ALL PERVADING COMING FROM A ELECTRIC LAMP, BUT STILL THE LIGHT IS NOT ELECTRIC LAMP'
AS ISA UPANISADS CLEARLY CLARIFY THIS IN THE VERSE
hiranmayena patrena
satyasyapihitam mukham
tat tvam pushann apavrinu
satya-dharmaya drishtaye (Isa upanisads)
"O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee."
Now the second verse of the same upanisads goes like this:
pushann ekarshe yama surya prajapatya
vyuha rasmin samuha
tejo yat te rupam kalyana-tamam
tat te pasyami yo 'sav asau purushah so 'ham asmi (ISA UPANISAD)
TRANSLATION
O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.
Then again Krishna confirming
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.
SO IT IS VERY CLEAR FROM ALL THE VEDIC AUTHENTIC SOURCE THAT THE ALL-PERVADING CONSCIOUSNESS COMES FROM THE PERSONAL FORM OF LORD. THEN WHERE IS QUESTION OF DEBATE??????..........................IF SOMEONE IS NOT ACCEPTING THE VEDIC VERSE THEN HE MIGHT HAVE BRAINWASHED ..................................
Gaurpremanande Hari Hari BOL..............................................................
Hare Krishna Nixon Prabhu . Dandavat Pranam. All glories to Srila Prabhupada
/*You use words like transcendental without even understanding what they imply, you contradict yourself my friend, Impersonalist do not even try to define God, they say neti, neti (not this, not this,) They don't limit God in anyway they urge one to perform sadhana to experience it for themselves*/
Srijon prabhu is not contradicting himself , you said Impersonalist don't limit GOD but you must know that IMPERSONALISTS NOT ONLY LIMIT BUT OFFEND GOD WHEN THEY SAY GOD IS QUALITYLESS, ATTRIBUTELESS IMPERSONAL. And yes they do sadhana to become god, YOU KNOW that IMPERSONALISTS ADVICE TO PRACTISE CONCENTRATION INFRONT OF DEITY F LORD TILL THE DEITY DOSEN'T BREAK INTO PIECES. Isn't that quite pathetic?
/*Truth is within you, it is not outside of the person. You said beyond thoughts and that is exactly right! Beyond thoughts where is there an conception of form?*/
Truth is within and outside also In vedanta sutra the sutra is "janmādy asya yato" ~ Everything phenomenal and spiritual emanates from GOD. So God is within and without.
Mind is matter and can only conceive material form, beyond mind and intellect there is piritual existence, now that does not mean there is not form. Anti-matter is not formless but can't be conceive through material experiment and senses.
/*one also has to understand that the puranas were also created for the purpose to help those whom didn't have enough understanding to grasp the abstract ideas of the Upanishads since they r difficult to comprehend for ordinary people so Puranas were made to help the ordinary people understand the Abstract ideas of the Upanishads and thus truth can be spoken of in tales to help people understand more easier*/
I must appreciate your vedic knowledge , but my vedic knowledge says something else along with evidence from Vedas, where puranas description is not at all like what you think unfortunately
cah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah
"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens." (Atharva Veda 11.7.24)
sa brhatim disam anu vyacalat tam itihasas ca puranam ca gathas ca itihasasya ca sa vai puranasya ca gathanam ca narasamsinam ca priyam dhama bhavati ya evam veda
"He approached the brhati meter, and thus the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas and Narasamsis became favorable to him. One who knows this verily becomes the beloved abode of the Itihasas, Puranas, Gathas and Narasamsis." (Atharva Veda 15.6.10–12)
evam ime sarva veda nirmitah sa-kalpah sa-rahasyah sa-brahmanah sopanisatkah setihasah sanvakhyatah sa-puranan
"In this way, all the Vedas were manifested along with the Kalpas, Rahasyas, Brahmanas, Upanisads, Itihasas, Anvakhyatas and the Puranas." (Gopatha Brahmana, purva 2.10)
nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah
"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda." (Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)
asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama
vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina
"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord." (Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)
/*To me I am not an impersonalist or personalist. I just defend the honor of the scriptures which are ridiculed unneccessarily. Neither are the Personalist better than the Impersonalist, and neither the Impersonalist are better than the Personalist.*/
How can one defend the honor of scriptures if the knowledge is not sufficient. One who takes shelter of wicked mayavad theory takes only a part of the scripture WHICH IS NOT SUPPORTED BY VEDA and thinks that others are foolish and only he is knowledgeable. But that person has no scriptural evidence to back up his concocted theory. Here the conlusion of upanisads as follows:
The Vedanta is composed of declarative statements, which impart knowledge regarding the Brahman's Swaroopa (reality-nature), Roopa (Form), Guna (Attributes/Characteristics), Vibhuthi (Property) and Iswaryam (Lordship). Let us do a brief analysis of certain verses of Vedaanta. The Upanishad (Vedaanta-Sruthi) Verses are of three types.
The Abheda Sruthis seems to state that the universe (all chit and achit entities) and the Brahman are one and the same. They seem to convey the identity of the universe and the Brahman.
The Bhedha Sruthis seems to categorically declare the difference between the Brahman and the universe.
The Ghataka Sruthi synchronizes the above two types of sruthis and resolves the apparent contradiction in the above mentioned two types of Sruthis. The explanation follows.
Abheda Sruthi (which Impersonalists uses)
"Tat Tvam Asi", "Sarvam Kalu Idam Brahma", "Aham Brahmaasmi" are a few verses amoung the Abedha Sruthis.
"Tat Tvam Asi" seems to tell that the Jeevaatman (Chit) and the Brahman (Iswara) are one and the same.
"Sarvam Kalu Idam Brahma" seems to tell that the universe and the Brahman are one and the same.
"Aham Brahmaasmi" seems to tell that "I (Jeevaatman) am the Brahman". These verses have declared that the universe and the Brahman are one and the same.
Bheda Sruthi (Personalists uses)
"Prutak Aatmaanam Preritaaram cha mathva jushtasthathastenaamrutavamethi" means that the Jeevaatman who comprehends and does Bhakthi that he is different from Brahman, who rules him, becomes blessed by the Brahman's grace and by this knowledge of Bhedam (difference between Jeevaatman and Brahman), attains liberation (Moksha). This sruthi not only confirms the difference between the Jeevaatman and the Paramaatman (Brahman) but also stresses that the "Tatva-iGnyaana" (Knowledge about the reality of chit, achit and Iswara that are different from one another) is a means for attaining liberation.
"Bhoktha Bhogyam Prerithaaram cha mathva sarvam proktham trividham brahma ethat" means "Bhotha" is Jeevaatman (Chit) who enjoys the results of his own karma. Bhogyam is Achit that is enjoyed by the Jeevaatman according to his own karma. Preritha denotes Iswara who controls all the Chit and Achit entities. Further "cha mathva sarvam proktham trividham brahma ethat" in this verse confirms that the Brahman has the Chit and Achit as his modes/forms and he is with his own unique reality. Therefore the Veda has clearly ascertained the reality of three different entities namely chit, achit and Iswara.
"Nithyo Nithyaanaam chethanas chethanaanaam Eko bhahuunaam yo vidadhaathi kaamaan" clearly states that among the innumerable eternally existing Aatmans, an Aatman is eternally existing who is distinguished from all the Aatmans as he grants and fulfills the wishes of all the other Aatmans. Amoung the inumerable Aatmans who have knowledge, there exist an Aatman who is having knowledge who is distinguished from all the Aatmans as he grants and fulfills the wishes of all the other Aatmans. Here the Veda has clearly declared that the Iswara is different from the Jeevaatmans as it says "That One Aatman who is different from all other Aatmans because of his unparalleled and unsurpassed supreme qualities that are unique to him"
"Pradhaana Kshetragjnya pathir guNesha:" means that Iswara is the Lord is of Achit and Chit and Iswara is with divine qualities namely Power, Strength, Lordship, Firmness, Knowledge and Glory which are beyond the reach of all words and sense organs.
"iGnyaagnyow iDvaavajaaveesaaneesow" means that there are two entities which are eternal of which one is the Iswara and the other is Jeevaatman which is different from Iswara. Iswara is omnisecient. Jeevaatman is ignorant. Therefore this verse also ascertains the difference between chit, achit and Iswara.
Ghataka Sruthi (The Conclusion)
"Ya: Pruthviyaam tishtan prutviyaa antharo yam pruthvii na veda yasya pruthvii sareeram" is in the Kaanva Shaaka of Bruhadaaranyaka Upanishad in Veda. It declares that the "Brahman is in the earth, entered inside it, who is not known by the earth and has the earth as his body/mode and controls the earth as Antaryaami" The Brahman is untouched by the impurities of the earth as he is the soul of it.
"Ya: Aatmani tishtan aatmano antharo yam aatmaa na veda yasya aatmaa sareeram" is in the Maadyanthina Shaaka of the same Uupanishad in Veda. It declares that the "Brahman is in the Jeevaatman, entered inside it, who is not known by the Jeevaatman and has the Jeevaatman as his body/mode and controls the Jeevaatman as Antaryaami" The Brahman is untouched by the impurities of the Jeevaatman as he is the soul of it.
THE FINAL CONCLUSION OF GHATAKA SHRUTI:
"iDvaa suparNaa sayujaa sakhaayaa samaanam vruksham pareshasvajaathe - tayoranya: pipalam swaadvathyanasnan anyoo abhichaakaseethi"
This is in MuNdakopanishad of Veda. It says that "Two birds having some attributes similar to each other are friends and are seated in a branch of one tree. Of these two birds, one bird eats the fruits of the tree, which are ripe. On the other hand the other bird does not eat the fruits and as such shines extraordinarily" From this verse, it is made clear by the Veda that both the Jeevaatman and the Paramaatman (Brahman-Vishnu) are present in the same body. The Jeevaatman enjoys and experiences the results of his karma (actions). On the other hand the Brahman just witnesses it and being untouched by such impurities shines with his natural greatness which is immeasurable. The Veda has ascertained that the Jeevaatman and the Paramaatman are always present together inseparably and also categorically ascertained the differences between the Jeevaatman and the Paramaatman.
Thus the Ghataka Sruthi does the synthesis of all the Bheda and Abheda sruties and establishes that the Brahman is the soul of all chit and achit entities and the entire chit and achit entities are resting on Brahman that is what Krishna saying in BG
BG 9.4: By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.
BG 9.5: And yet everything that is created does not rest in Me. Behold My mystic opulence! Although I am the maintainer of all living entities and although I am everywhere, I am not a part of this cosmic manifestation, for My Self is the very source of creation.
"THIS IS CALLED SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE" ~ PERFECT PHILOSOPHY. SO WITHOUT SHOUTING BRAHMAN BRAHMAN I WOULD REQUEST TO PLEASE BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT WITH VEDIC EVIDENCE.
Continuing....................
Continuing from my last post............
SO YES ALL SCRIPTURES SAYS ONLY ABOUT VAISNAVISM AND NOT ADVAITA. ADVATIN ARE OFFENDERS TO THE LOTUS FEET OF KRISHNA AS KRISHNA HIMSELF CONDEMNING ADVAITA PHILOSOPHY IN SO MANY VERSES OF GITA AS FOLLOWS:
BG 9.11: Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.
BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.
BG 4.6: Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.
NOW IF ANYONE THINK THAT HE KNOWS IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN BETTER THAN KRISHNA THEN NOTHING TO SAY
Regarding falldown from Vaikuntha
Vedantra sutra says "janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ" Evrything has its origin in Brahman (here refers to God or Krishna) . Now as living being are also spiritual entity so they also has their origin in Krishna now as a part of the whole it is not possible that the parts were separated from the begining from the whole , It can't be possible. So living being started their journey from the spiritual world in the begining thats logic says , then they fall into maya. As they are marginal energy so they were in between Vaikuntha and maya. In that region maya is strong as living entity are minute So its not impossible for them to fall from that marginal position.
Srila Prabhupada gave insights in his letter. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Ishopanishad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Ishopanishad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”
Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya.So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”
Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”
Hope that explained that we are not cursed here from Vaikuntha.
Hari Bol!
DR FROG AND HIS PHILOSOPHY
Dr Frog was a great scientist among the frogs. He had made his residence within a well. He was an expert in his field of endeavor and knew everything about the well and related matters. One day, one of his friends came to visit him and said, "My dear friend, I have seen a vast mass of water, the Atlantic Ocean."
"What is that Atlantic Ocean?" asked Dr Frog
"It is very vast" replied the other frog
"How vast is it? Is it five times bigger than this well? Or ten times?” enquired Dr Frog in amusement
"No, no, it is very, very vast" said the other frog
“Come on twenty times should be it!" asserted Dr Frog although speculating
This is called ‘Kupa manduka nyaya’. ‘Kupa’ means well, ‘manduka’ means frog and ‘nyaya’ means philosophy. Dr Frog, although an expert in his field of knowledge, was not able to comprehend the vastness of Atlantic Ocean. Because of limited exposure, his estimation couldn’t come anywhere close enough to guage the vastness of the ocean.
God and Dr Frog
So when we speak of "God is great," we cannot imagine how great He is. We apply Dr. Frog's philosophy. Speculation about God is like the speculation of the frog about the Atlantic Ocean. Mundane philosophers(Impersonalists) and scientists are thinking of God in that way. Dr. Frog's philosophy will not help us understand what God is. The only way to know about God, His creation and related matters is to accept the knowledge from a person who has seen the absolute truth and who is able to deliver the message as it is in the line of disciplic succession. Such an empowered person is known as the ‘Spiritual master’.
In same vein, Modern Scientists and Philosophers may be glorified experts in their chosen fields but their repeated efforts to speculate on aspects beyond their capacity of imagination or measurement has time and again failed to guage the vastness of this creation. The universes are ‘ananta’, unlimited, and therefore as Srila Prabhupada says, we cannot conceive aspects of entire creation by our tiny brain or limited thinking abilities.
With one's limited senses, one cannot argue about that which is inconceivable. Therefore the inconceivable is called ‘acintya’, that which is beyond ‘cintya’, our thoughts and arguments. ‘Acintya’ refers to that which we cannot contemplate but have to accept. Srila Jiva Gosvami has said that unless we accept ‘acintya’ in the Supreme, we cannot accommodate the conception of God. This must be understood.
Conclusion
So by accepting the transcendental knowledge that comes down through in the line of disciplic succession of pure devotees of Krishna, one can rise above the defects of the material mind and senses and reach a scientific understanding of the Absolute Truth, His creation and every other matter that is in line with them.
Hare Krishna
Yes Sudipta Roy Prabhu, you are 100 % correct. We must follow a guru parampara. We do not have the right to say who God is, how he looks etc. by our imperfect minds because we are not an authority. Therefore we must follow acaryas in our guru parampara to get knowledge about God because they are pure devotees already in the highest stage of life.
Hari Bol!
Hare Krishna Night Xion prabhuji,
//But just think for a minute, If one can fall from Brahma Jyoti, that would imply that one even there has independance, how can one have seperate existence In Brahmajyoti. Does the river seem to have independance once it becomes merged in the Ocean?//
Ocean contains innumerable water drops but as a whole it is ocean. The drops are independent and simultaneously one with the ocean. When we observe the ocean from outside we see the ONE ocean nevertheless individual drops exist which can be separated with effort.
//Before the very first creation, as creation has happened many times, my argument is that before the very FIRST creation where were we? Beccause it is said that the living entities always existed and before the very first creation there was no karma to reap since to suffer any results//
Similarly, though the jiva exist in the brahmajyoti of God, by pull of Maya sometimes it can be detached and the jiva feels more independent but no longer feels it was once ONE with the Supreme. That's a pity and that's where the power of Maya starts. Before the very first creation, God existed with all within Him - matter in his potent creative Will and Jivas in His brahmajyoti. When the God Willed creation and wielded the power - Shakthi, they manifested independence. As the pull of Maya became stronger, the jivas gained more independence and slowly detached from the idea of Oneness with God. This cycle goes on eternally. Those jivas who are strong enough to resist this Maya by thinking more about God (devotion) and devoid of vAsanAs (unsatiable tendencies) are successful to remain there, while others separate. From there, Jivas act by themselves create Karmic results that keep them engaged in the cycle of birth and death until the vAsaNas are satisfied but all the time keeping them successfully away from God until one day they realize that unless vAsaNas are either completely destroyed (which is near impossible) or dovetailed in the service of Supreme Godhead (Krishna or one of His innumerable levels of expansions that attracts the mind) this cycle can't be escaped.
//And if Vaikuntha has always existed we all must of been on Vaikuntha in our original forms. So that doesn't make sense that we were in Brahm Jyoti and fell down. The other question then arises how many living entities exist? Infinite amount of Infinite Living entities or limited amount of Infinite entities plz try to understand that Infinite Existence cannot have any limitations. If Vaikuntha is an Infinite existence than indeed the livining entities there must also be of Infinite numbers lol as how can a Limited amount of entities live in an Infinite domain? That makes no sense mathematically. The other is that Infinite existence cannot have another Infinite existence along side of it Because Infinite Existence has no equal.//
Vaikuntha always existed as the Lord's abode and we were with the God. As long as the Jivas are tuned to Narayana they see Vaikuntha where Narayana is. Once we become materially covered by Maya we see God and His abode more different as we start comparing Vaikuntha with other worlds. And the confusion starts. Though the types of species are finite (some 4+ lakhs) souls are as innumerable as drops in the ocean !! When the ocean (God) itself is infinite, how can we count the drops..it is also then approximately infinite to our observation. To your mathematical question, Infinity can accommodate both Finiteness and Infinity..isn't it brother? :). If you also think on the lines of separate infinite existences, -infinity and +infinity on the number line we can separately see infinity or treat as ONE continuity. 0 is then the centre from where infinity can be measured. God is that Centre from where infiniteness originates. The duality is therefore -infinity and +infinity. They are simultaneously one and different. Being 'centered with God ' as 0 where we willfully be with Him, we can manage any infinity.
In loving service to Krishna and Bhagavathas,
Suresh
The Crow-and-Fruit Philosophy
To illustrate the uselessness of arguing about where the soul fell from, Srila Prabhupada once gave the example of the crow and the fruit of an Indian palm, the tal fruit. On the top of a tree was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some learned scholars saw this and began discussing. The fruit fell because the crow shook the limb, one said. No, said another, as the crow was landing the fruit happened to fall. This frightened the crow, so the crow flew away. No, said a third, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow’s landing broke the fruit from the branch.…
“What is the use of such discussion?” Srila Prabhupada said.
Whether we came from Krishna’s pastimes or from some other spiritual source, Srila Prabhupada said, “at the present you are in neither. So the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [to Krishna], never mind what is your origin.”
“At the present moment you are in maya’s clutches,” he wrote, “so our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead.”
Don’t waste time with the crow-and-tal-fruit logic, Srila Prabhupada advised. “Now the fruit is there. Take it and enjoy.”
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