Hare Krishna,
Does donating organ post death hamper the souls journey after death? In such cases does the soul remain attached to the material body and hence does not proceed to the spiritual realm?
Regards,
Karishma
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Hare Krishna Mataji,
Please accept my humble obeisance,
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudev,
With whatever little understanding I have about Krishna consciousness following is my opinion.
First of all, one should ask a question, is this body a house for ONE SOUL or MANY SOULS ???
This is the most favoured argument of scientists against the transcendentalists.
The scientists argue, that if you say the soul has departed, then how come the organs in that dead body are still alive?
How are we able to transplant these organs?
Well this begs a little bit of explanation.
Actually this body is a house for millions upon billions of living entities (souls). As a matter of fact, each cell has an individual soul, which is why it displays the symptoms of life: (self-preservation and progeny). So how do we reconcile this fact of life.
In this regard, an analogy of a King's personal palace can be used. This body is like a palace. One soul is extremely potent (due to his previous karma) while others are less potent (again due to their previous karma). This extremely potent soul can be compared to the King of that palace, while other souls can be compared to the many servants in that palace.
Just as all the servants in the palace are working for the pleasure of that ONE KING, similarly all the cells (souls in them) of the body are working for the pleasure of that extremely potent MAIN SOUL.
Just as the King's servants live in the same palace, but they don't claim ownership of the palace, similarly the souls embodied by the cells live in the body but do not claim ownership of the whole body.
Just as the king claims ownership of the palace and his instinct of self-preservation includes the preservation and protection of the palace as well as all its residents. Similarly, only the MAIN SOUL in the body claims ownership of the whole body and his instinct of self-preservation includes all the cells in that body.
This instinct of self-preservation of the MAIN SOUL of the body, is not only natural but also a duty of that MAIN SOUL.
Thus SUICIDE or voluntary amputation of any part of the body which is not for the reason of self-preservation of the whole body, is prohibited. In doing so, the MAIN SOUL in the body hampers the karmic evolution of the lesser potent (servant souls) by killing them unnecessarily and untimely. One has to remember that these lesser potent souls are dependants of the MAIN SOUL and the MAIN SOUL is entrusted with the duty of their protection.
Thus one can understand that amputation of some organ (as in organ donation) while the MAIN SOUL is still in the body, is not a very good idea. This is a sinful act and will most surely give a very bad karmic reaction to the MAIN SOUL of that body. This karmic reaction is inevitable experienced by the organ donor in the form of ADI-ATMIC TAP (suffering caused by one's own bodily pain).
On the other hand, once the MAIN SOUL has left the body due to providence (not suicide), it is no more responsible for the lesser potent souls in that body. After death (i.e.: the MAIN SOUL has left the body) these lesser potent souls are directly controlled by providence and will live or die as an organ depending on their individual karma.
It is worth to note here that, not all the organs that are transplanted to another body, work. Its pretty much a FLIP-OF-A-COIN. The doctors do not have and will never have any SAY in this. It is completely dependent on the karmic providence of those individual souls in the cells of that organ.
Hope this explanation satisfies your pure heart.
Please forgive my offences.
just a servant,
shrutadev das
Thank you prabhuji for your insights on my query.
Hare Krishna
Actually I Thank You for posting such a nice question. Hare Krishna!!!
It's my pleasure Mataji... Hare Krishna !
SB 7.14.26
TEXT 26
TEXT
Sa&Sk-ark-al/ae JaaYaaYaa APaTYaSYaaTMaNaSTaQaa )
Pa[eTaSa&SQaa Ma*Taahê k-MaR<Ya>YaudYae Na*Pa )) 26 ))
saàskära-kälo jäyäyä
apatyasyätmanas tathä
preta-saàsthä måtähaç ca
karmaëy abhyudaye nåpa
SYNONYMS
saàskära-kälaù—at the proper time indicated for Vedic reformatory performances; jäyäyäù—for the wife; apatyasya—for the children; ätmanaù—and one's own self; tathä—as well as; preta-saàsthä—funeral ceremonies; måta-ahaù—annual death ceremonies; ca—and; karmaëi—of fruitive activity; abhyudaye—for furtherance; nåpa—O King.
TRANSLATION
O King Yudhiñöhira, at the time prescribed for reformatory ritualistic ceremonies for one's self, one's wife or one's children, or during funeral ceremonies and annual death ceremonies, one must perform the auspicious ceremonies mentioned above in order to flourish in fruitive activities.
PURPORT
The Vedas recommend many ritualistic ceremonies to be performed with one's wife, on the birthdays of one's children, or during funeral ceremonies, and there are also personal reformatory methods like initiation. These must be observed according to time and circumstances and the directions of the çästra. Bhagavad-gétä strongly recommends, jïätvä çästra-vidhänoktam: everything must be performed as indicated in the çästras. For Kali-yuga, the çästras enjoin that saìkértana-yajïa be performed always: kértanéyaù sadä hariù [Cc. Ädi 17.31]. All the ritualistic ceremonies recommended in the çästras must be preceded and followed by saìkértana. This is the recommendation of Çréla Jéva Gosvämé.
SB 9.20.24, SB 9.20.25, SB 9.20.26, SB 9.20.24-26
TEXTS 24-26
TEXT
c§&- di+a<ahSTae_SYa PaÚk-aeXaae_SYa PaadYaae" )
wRJae Mahai>azeke-<a Saae_i>aiz¢-ae_iDara@( iv>au" )) 24 ))
PaÄPaÄaXaTaa MaeDYaEGaR(r)aYaaMaNau vaiJai>a" )
MaaMaTaeYa& PauraeDaaYa YaMauNaaMaNau c Pa[>au" )) 25 ))
AíSaáiTaMaeDYaaìaNa( bbNDa Pa[ddd( vSau
>arTaSYa ih daEZMaNTaeriGan" SaacqGau<ae icTa" )
Sahó& bÜXaae YaiSMaNa( b]aø<aa Gaa iv>aeiJare )) 26 ))
cakraà dakñiëa-haste 'sya
padma-koço 'sya pädayoù
éje mahäbhiñekeëa
so 'bhiñikto 'dhiräò vibhuù
païca-païcäçatä medhyair
gaìgäyäm anu väjibhiù
mämateyaà purodhäya
yamunäm anu ca prabhuù
añöa-saptati-medhyäçvän
babandha pradadad vasu
bharatasya hi dauñmanter
agniù säcé-guëe citaù
sahasraà badvaço yasmin
brähmaëä gä vibhejire
SYNONYMS
cakram—the mark of Kåñëa's disc; dakñiëa-haste—on the palm of the right hand; asya—of him (Bharata); padma-koçaù—the mark of the whorl of a lotus; asya—of him; pädayoù—on the soles of the feet; éje—worshiped the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahä-abhiñekeëa—by a grand Vedic ritualistic ceremony; saù—he (Mahäräja Bharata); abhiñiktaù—being promoted; adhiräö—to the topmost position of a ruler; vibhuù—the master of everything; païca-païcäçatä—fifty-five; medhyaiù—fit for sacrifices; gaìgäyäm anu—from the mouth of the Ganges to the source; väjibhiù—with horses; mämateyam—the great sage Bhågu; purodhäya—making him the great priest; yamunäm—on the bank of the Yamunä; anu—in regular order; ca—also; prabhuù—the supreme master, Mahäräja Bharata; añöa-saptati—seventy-eight; medhya-açvän—horses fit for sacrifice; babandha—he bound; pradadat—gave in charity; vasu—riches; bharatasya—of Mahäräja Bharata; hi—indeed; dauñmanteù—the son of Mahäräja Duñmanta; agniù—the sacrificial fire; säcé-guëe—on an excellent site; citaù—established; sahasram—thousands; badvaçaù—by the number of one badva (one badva equals 13,084); yasmin—in which sacrifices; brähmaëäù—all the brähmaëas present; gäù—the cows; vibhejire—received their respective share.
TRANSLATION
Mahäräja Bharata, the son of Duñmanta, had the mark of Lord Kåñëa's disc on the palm of his right hand, and he had the mark of a lotus whorl on the soles of his feet. By worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead with a grand ritualistic ceremony, he became the emperor and master of the entire world. Then, under the priesthood of Mämateya, Bhågu Muni, he performed fifty-five horse sacrifices on the bank of the Ganges, beginning from its mouth and ending at its source, and seventy-eight horse sacrifices on the bank of the Yamunä, beginning from the confluence at Prayäga and ending at the source. He established the sacrificial fire on an excellent site, and he distributed great wealth to the brähmaëas. Indeed, he distributed so many cows that each of thousands of brähmaëas had one badva [13,084] as his share.
PURPORT
As indicated here by the words dauñmanter agniù säcé-guëe citaù, Bharata, the son of Mahäräja Duñmanta, arranged for many ritualistic ceremonies all over the world, especially all over India on the banks of the Ganges and Yamunä, from the mouth to the source, and all such sacrifices were performed in very distinguished places. As stated in Bhagavad-gétä (3.9), yajïärthät karmaëo 'nyatra loko 'yaà karma-bandhanaù: "Work done as a sacrifice for Viñëu has to be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world." Everyone should engage in the performance of yajïa, and the sacrificial fire should be ignited everywhere, the entire purpose being to make people happy, prosperous and progressive in spiritual life. Of course, these things were possible before the beginning of Kali-yuga because there were qualified brähmaëas who could perform such yajïas. For the present, however, the Brahma-vaivarta Puräëa enjoins:
açvamedhaà gavälambhaà
sannyäsaà pala-paitåkam
devareëa sutotpattià
kalau païca vivarjayet
[Cc. Ädi 17.164]
"In this age of Kali, five acts are forbidden: offering a horse in sacrifice, offering a cow in sacrifice, accepting the order of sannyäsa, offering oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and begetting children in the wife of one's brother." In this age, such yajïas as the açvamedha-yajïa and gomedha-yajïa are impossible to perform because there are neither sufficient riches nor qualified brähmaëas. This verse says, mämateyaà purodhäya: Mahäräja Bharata engaged the son of Mamatä, Bhågu Muni, to take charge of performing this yajïa. Now, however, such brähmaëas are impossible to find. Therefore the çästras recommend, yajïaiù saìkértana-präyair yajanti hi sumedhasaù: those who are intelligent should perform the saìkértana-yajïa inaugurated by Lord Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu.
kåñëa-varëaà tviñäkåñëaà
saìgopäìgästra-pärñadam
yajïaiù saìkértana-präyair
yajanti hi sumedhasaù
"In this age of Kali, people endowed with sufficient intelligence will worship the Lord, who is accompanied by His associates, by performance of saìkértana-yajïa." (SB 11.5.32) Yajïa must be performed, for otherwise people will be entangled in sinful activities and will suffer immensely. Therefore the Kåñëa consciousness movement has taken charge of introducing the chanting of Hare Kåñëa all over the world. This Hare Kåñëa movement is also yajïa, but without the difficulties involved in securing paraphernalia and qualified brähmaëas. This congregational chanting can be performed anywhere and everywhere. If people somehow or other assemble together and are induced to chant Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, Kåñëa Kåñëa, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare, all the purposes of yajïa will be fulfilled. The first purpose is that there must be sufficient rain, for without rain there cannot be any produce (annäd bhavanti bhütäni parjanyäd anna-sambhavaù [Bg. 3.14]). All our necessities can be produced simply by rainfall (kämaà vavarña parjanyaù [SB 1.10.4]), and the earth is the original source of all necessities (sarva-käma-dughä mahé). In conclusion, therefore, in this age of Kali people all over the world should refrain from the four principles of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling-and in a pure state of existence should perform the simple yajïa of chanting the Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra. Then the earth will certainly produce all the necessities for life, and people will be happy economically, politically, socially, religiously and culturally. Everything will be in proper order.
JAYA SRILA PRABHUPADA
JAYA ACHARHYAS
JAI NITAI GAURAHARI
AHARI BOL
TWO THINGS ARE TO BE KEPT IN MIND:
DIVINE VARNASRAMA: YES, IT IS AN INSTRUCTION BY ACAHRYAS TO REVIVE IT. MOREOVER, IT IS NOT HINDUISM. PRESENT HINDUISM INCLUDE MAYAVADA, SAIVISM, SAKTISM, SMARTISM WHICH ARE JUST BODILY DESIGNATED RELIGIONS AND CHANGE BIRTH AFTER BIRTH.
ALSO, GOAL OF ALL FOLLOWERS OF DIVINE VARNASRAMA IS TO PLEASE LORD VISNU/KRSNA BY PERFORMING YAJNAS EITHER DIRECTLY OR THROUGH PURE DEVOTEES. WE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT MANY DEMIGODS ARE KARMA-MISRA DEVOTEES. SO, IF WE HAVE TO RETURN OUR ORGANS, BEST WAY IS TO DIRECTLY USE THEM FOR LORD IN PRESENT LIFE AND SURRENDER THEM TO LORD.
FALLEN SOULS IN THIS AGE: LORD CAITANYA RECOMMENDED AND ACHARYAS ALSO RECOMMEND SANKIRTAN YAJNA. IT IS MOST IMPORTANT. MOREOVER, IT IS SAID EVEN CANDALA CHNATS OFFENSELESSLY HOLY NAMES OF SUPREME LORD, HE SURPASSES LEARNED VIPRAS.
CONCLUSION: YES, WE SHOULD OBSERVE THESE SANSKARAS, IF THEY RESULT IN PURE DEVOTION. BUT CHANTING HARE KRSNA IS THE ONLY WAY IN THIS AGE. PURIFICATION OF EXISTENCE CAN BE EASILY DONE BY SADHANA BHAKTI. YES, THOSE WHO LACK FAITH IN BHAKTI MUST FOLLOW KARMA KANDA FOR ELEVATION. SB 11.20.9
SANKIRTAN YAJNA AIMS AT PLEASING SUPREME LORD AND WHEN HE IS PLEASED, THERE IS NO NEED TO PERFORM OTHER YAJNAS WHICH ARE EXPENSIVE AN DQUALIFIED BRAHMANAS ARE NOT PRESENT.
Dear Shubham Prabhuji,
Just performing Bhakti and not following Dharma is like crossing the ocean of nescience with a big rock in hand. You are bound to get drowned. Sanskars purify our existence and Bhakti flourishes only in a Dharmik person. Thus, Dharma & Bhakti both are important.
Krishna Mukherji Ji!
Very true. But we should not forget what is eternal dharma and naimitikka dharma or temporary dharma.
Temporary dharmas are religious principles as you have mentioned. I have no quarrel to follow them. As Antyesti must be done for those who are not fully surrendered to Supreme Lord. You are saying practically that We should observe sanskaras. We are bound by karma, we are not liberated, I am not even a neophyte.
But you have misunderstood word dharma.
http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Bhagavata-dharma_is_in_the_transcendenta...
GLORIES TO SRILA PRABHUPADA
Nectar of Devotion Lectures
You are now engaged in two kinds of dharma. Somebody, karmīs, they are bhoga, bhoga dharmī. They want to enjoy. And tyāgī, they want to renounce this bhoga. So both of these will not help you. Bhoga-tyāga. Then what? Sevā. You have to take the dharma of sevā. That is bhakti.
The Nectar of Devotion -- Bombay, December 26, 1972:
So Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān pari... You have to give up this bhoga dharma and tyāga dharma. Sarva-dharmān parityajya (BG 18.66). You are now engaged in two kinds of dharma. Somebody, karmīs, they are bhoga, bhoga dharmī. They want to enjoy. And tyāgī, they want to renounce this bhoga. So both of these will not help you. Bhoga-tyāga. Then what? Sevā. You have to take the dharma of sevā. That is bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-sevā. For Kṛṣṇa, you can accept anything. That is It may appear bhoga. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, Pṛthu Mahārāja, they were kings, very opulent kings. Dhruva Mahārāja. So still they were great devotees. Not only ordinary devotees, mahājanas. So this bhoga-tyāga has no meaning. It has no benefit. One has to become devotee. Either in the bhoga field or in the tyāga field, it doesn't matter. Bhoga-tyāga is not required. Required service. That service, it may be on the platform of bhoga or service... Service is required, Kṛṣṇa's service. Kṛṣṇa has to be satisfied. Either in the bhoga platform or tyāga plat... He does not... Devotee's not concerned with bhoga-tyāga. Devotee's concerned with Kṛṣṇa's service.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Lectures
So according to reference with sat and asat, there are two kinds of dharma. Any dharma or any occupational duty with reference to this nonpermanent body, that is asad-dharma. Sad-dharma means the occupational duty of the soul.
Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.106 -- New York, July 12, 1976:
So here the most important word is sad-dharma. Dharma... In the English dictionary dharma is described as a kind of faith, but here it is said, sad-dharma. Sad-dharma. Sat means which exists, which never diminishes. In the Vedic knowledge we get information, asato mā sad gama: "Don't remain in the nonexistentional platform." Sad-gama: "Go to the platform of eternal life." That we can understand, what is sat and what is asat. Sat, cit, ānanda. Sac-cid-ānanda. We describe Kṛṣṇa, īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ (Bs. 5.1). So that is sat. Sat means eternal. And so according to reference with sat and asat, there are two kinds of dharma. I... Several places in my books I have described, dharma means occupational duty, occupational duty. So if we are on the platform of asad-dharma, just like on the conception of this body... This is asad-dharma. Everyone knows the body will not exist; therefore it is asat. So any dharma or any occupational duty with reference to this nonpermanent body, that is asad-dharma. Asad-dharma. Whatever our occupational duties are now going on in this big city of New York... What is their occupational duty? The duty... Everyone is going to the office early in the morning. They have got... Everyone has got duty, but that duty—asad-dharma. Body will not exist; therefore anything done on account of the body, that is asad-dharma. That is not real dharma. Real dharma is when you come to the platform of sat. That sat we have to understand, what is sat and what is asat. Asat, nonpermanent. Everyone we know that this body is not permanent. And sat? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. You have to learn it. Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (BG 2.20). The body is asat, it will be destroyed, but the soul, which will never be destroyed... Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate... Na hanyate hanyamāne śarī... (BG 2.20). Na jāyate mriyate vā kadācit. That soul is never born, never dies, kadācit, at any time. Not that sometimes it dies and sometimes... No. Any time, kadācit.
So this sad-dharma means the occupational duty of the soul. That is sad-dharma. And except that duty, whatever we are doing, that is asad-dharma; it will not stay. Now I have got this body, Indian body or Christian body or American body. But this, everything, this conception of Christianity or Indian nationality or American nationality—everything will be finished with this body. Everything will be finished. Therefore all our engagements in this connection, they are all asad-dharma. It is very difficult. We are all engaged in occupational duties, all asad-dharma. But the Vedic injunction is asato mā sad gama: "Don't remain in this asat platform. Come to the sat platform." And the same thing is described here, sad-dharmasyāvabodhāya. So the human life begins when we can distinguish between sat and asat. If we remain in darkness without understanding what is sat and asat, then we are no better than dogs and cats. So the modern civilization, not only... Nowadays very big problem. People are very much attached to asad-dharma. They are not... Because they are so dull-headed, they cannot understand what is sat and what is asat. They cannot understand, dull-headed. Therefore brain requires to be clarified.
There are two kinds of dharmas: material and spiritual, because we are combination of matter and spirit at the present moment.
Pandal Lecture -- November 14, 1971, Delhi:
So Bhāgavata-dharma is in the transcendental platform. It is not material. There are two kinds of dharmas: material and spiritual, because we are combination of matter and spirit at the present moment. So long I want to enjoy this material world or to satisfy my senses... This material body means combination of senses. Indriyāṇi parāṇy āhuḥ. So the platform where we are concerned with the senses, that is called karma, karma platform. Just like people are working very hard day and night in the city. The purpose is to gratify the senses. Yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham (SB 7.9.45). So that is karma. Then, indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ (BG 3.42). When you come to the activities of the mind-psychology, metaphysics, philosophical speculation—that is another stage; that is better than this stage, karmī. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has approved that out of many thousands of karmīs, one jñānī is better. And out of many thousands of jñānīs, one mukta is better, liberated. One who has realized that "I am not this matter, I am Brahman," he is better. He is mukta. Mukta means one... Brahma-bhūtaḥ, he understands. He no more identifies himself with these material activities. That is called brahma-bhūtaḥ. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu approves that out of many thousands of karmīs, one jñānī is better. And out of many thousands of jñānīs, one mukta is better. And out of many thousands of mukta, hardly you can find any bhakta. Bhakta... So the position of bhakta is very sublime. This is transcendental position, brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26).
1971 Conversations and Morning Walks
There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform.
Room Conversation with Dr. Karan Singh, -- November 25, 1971, Delhi:
Prabhupāda: I want to revive brāhmaṇa-ism, kṣatriya-ism. Unless you do that, there cannot be any peace. Dharma. Dharma means this classification dharma. There are two kinds of dharmas. One, material dharma, and another, spiritual dharma. Actually, dharma means spiritual. But so long we do not come to the standard platform of spiritual dharma, we have to regulate our life in such a way that we may come ultimately to the spiritual platform. So that material dharma is that, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ (BG 4.13).
Dr. Singh: Guṇa-karma vibhādayo.
Prabhupāda: So the brāhmaṇa's dharma, the kṣatriya's dharma, the vaiśya's dharma, and the śūdra's dharma.
Dr. Singh: In the modern world, Swamiji, wouldn't you think that the same person has got to combine in himself the qualities traditionally ascribed to all the dharmas? Therefore, a man must be..., he must have the knowledge.
Prabhupāda: That is a fact, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Singh: He must have the integration of the guṇas.
Prabhupāda: Integration of guṇas, sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate (BG 14.26). That is transcendental position. You have to transcend all the three guṇas. Nistraiguṇyo bhavārjuna. Traiguṇya-viṣayā vedā. The Vedic system is dealing with the three kinds of guṇas—sattva, raja, tama guṇa. And Arjuna was advised to come to the platform of nistraiguṇya, nirguṇa.
As far as personal opinion is concerned, I have quoted the Acharyas and Scriptures. They are not mental concotions. Yes, Bhakti Maral Mataji has said true that in such a case we can donate because we know we are doing devotional service.
Actually this topic is not much important because we know that donation is charity and we should do it only when we are good pious persons or should do that for devotional service.
JAI SRILA PRABHUPADA
HARI BOL
Shubham Prabhuji, I have quoted the position of GBC regarding this matter. Please refer it. Hare Krishna...
Hare Krishna dear Devotees, please accept my humble obeisances! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Krishna Mukherji Prabhu, You are right that we should follow rules and regulations.
Also Shubham Prabhu is right that the first and foremost rule is to please Krishna.
So both of You are right! I learned many things from You both.
We have to be according to time, place and circumstances, aren't we?!
For example, one person is dying and he knows that other Devotee of God is also sick and needs new kidney. So why not that person donate his kidney after his death? If that Devotee takes that kidney than he can live for few more years and preach the glories of the Holy Names and make happy unhappy living entities.
So what is the loss in that?
Plus person who died and donated his kidney will also be blessed by Krishna.
So we have to use our intelligence in every situation.
To lie was not according to shastras but for that moment of time it was the foremost shastric rule for Yudhishthira. Which is to please Krishna. The Father of all shastras and rules.
----
Krishna says man mana bhava mad bhakto mam yajir mam namaskuru ....abandon all religions and just surrender unto Me and I will protect You from all dangers.
So if we do donation for pleasing Krishna then hell with our so called tantra, mudra, yantra...as like brahmanas told when they saw their wives achieved the perfection of life.
Your servant,
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