A question many times arise, many hold this opinion regarding upanisads that upanisads talks about Impersonal Brahman, Shiva etc. But this view is not truth rather absurd beacuse the teachings of Upanisads should be inline with teachings of Bhagavad Gita, Vedanta Sutra, Purusha Suktam, mahabharata, Ramayana etc. we can't take just few context out of any upanisads or any scripture and establish any view according to that, a truth can only be established when it supported by other scriptures.
Like some upanisads talks about impersonal aspect of god for e.g.
Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.10): tato yad uttarataram tad arupam anamayam/ ya etad vidur amrtas te bhavanti athetare duhkham evapiyanti.
This impersonalist use this verse to show gos has no form (Arupam). But this if we see without seeing other verses of the same upanisads then we really conclude that god is impersonal. But no , beacuse the same upanisads says
Other verses in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (3.8-9) substantiate this as follows:
vedaham etam purusam mahantam aditya-varnam tamasah parastat
tam eva viditvati mrtyum eti nanyah pantha vidyate 'yanaya
yasmat param naparam asti kincid yasman naniyo no jyayo 'sti kincit
vrksa iva stabdho divi tisthaty ekastenedam purnam purusena sarvam
"I know that Supreme Personality of Godhead who is transcendental to all material conceptions of darkness. Only he who knows Him can transcend the bonds of birth and death. There is no way for liberation other than this knowledge of that Supreme Person.
"There is no truth superior to that Supreme Person, because He is the supermost. He is smaller than the smallest, and He is greater than the greatest. He is situated as a silent tree, and He illumines the transcendental sky, and as a tree spreads its roots, He spreads His extensive energies."
Now few things to understand here that the upanisads first mentioned him arupam ( no form) again in other verses declared he is Purusha (Person) . So what should we conclude, it seems apparant contradiction , but there is no contradiction beacuse Arupam used for that the Purusha has no form like us, he has no material form rather he has a transcendental form.
Another thing if we accept few verse of upanisads talks about impersonal accept, and we conclude that absolute truth is impersonal on that basis, then what will we answer to those verse which talks god is personal.
Like in BG Krishna saying
BG 14.27: And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.
BG 9.11: Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.
BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.
How can we deny the verses of Isha upanisads:
Iso 15: O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.
Iso 16: O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.
So shastra should be read as a whole, not as a part, else we will jump in worng conclusion, beacuse if we conclude god is impersonal then we have to refute Bhagavad Gita and Upanisads other statements. But is this possible, that means our understanding is wrong.
Also it happens sometime that other gods name like Shiva occuring in upanisads like in svetasvatara upanisads 5.4 , but this Shiva is nothing but other Name of Vishnu beacuse
27) shivah: He who is eternally pure
600) shivah: Auspiciousness
The both names appears in the 27th name of Vishnu in Vishnu sahsranama.
Again to confirm this Krishna saying
BG 10.23: Of all the Rudras I am Lord Śiva, of the Yakṣas and Rākṣasas I am the Lord of wealth [Kuvera], of the Vasus I am fire [Agni], and of mountains I am Meru.
So this confirms That Vishnu is Shiva and not the other way around, thus Upanisad can't say Siva is supreme in these verse , because its simply not supported by Vedanta-sutra, Bhagavd Gita, Purusha Suktam and other verse of Upanisads.
Hence Shastra should and can only be understandable when we follow proper source and bonafide paramapara rather than trying to intrepret on own whim. Any verse from any shastra shoulb be confirmed by Prashtana traya (Vedanta-sutra, Upanisads and BG) . Bhagavad Gita is the basis and other should be inline with this. Else that interpretation has no value.
Brother Sudipta what I have pasted about the Mahabharata is indeed correct, if it is found to have any error I have no problem in clarifying this as the sanksrit version of Mahabharata is online for all to read take that one can translate it. Rudra Hrydaya Upanisad is from the Vedas itself so it is authoritative. It is one of the 108 principal upanishads. Even I whom don't know sanskrit can look at the verses and see that they are similar to the english translation, it doesn't take a genius to see that. Now to find out if the above acharyas u mentioned commented on these upanishads I would have to research that, but thats besides the point that these Upanishads exist in the Vedas themselves. Shiva Sahasranama is also found in the Mahabharata.
See brother, no one denying the greatness of Lord Shiva, and how can one be. Lord Shiva is transformation of Lord Krishna in the mode of ignorance. So Lord Krishna is Lord Shiva but yet Lord Shiva is not Krishna. So when in Mahabharata Krishna is glorifying Lord Shiva , its indeed Kirshna glorifying the Greatness of his Tranformation Potency which hold the power to Annihilate world. But this no way show that Lord Shiva is supreme Brahman, Because ultimate conclusion of Mahabharata is not so. Tell me the name of one Acharya who has concluded after reading whole Mahabharata that Lord Shiva is supreme brahman and not Lord Vishnu. Mahabharata describes thoe whole vedas along with details of different deities and their position , hence Glorification of Shiva is there because he plays the most important role of annihilation of universe. But Mahabharata doesn't conclude or propagate Shiva Sahasranama instead of Vishnu Sahasranama and the essence it Bhagavad Gita.
"Curd is transformation of milk, hence milk is curd , but curd is not milk, because all the eliments that costitutes milk ,not found in Curd"
"Shiva is ignorance transformation of Vishnu, All shastra confirms this"
Tell me one shastra that says Lord Shiva is Swattvik tattva. Suddha sawtta (pure mode of goodness) is only Vishnu tattava, which alone can give liberation. Thats why Krishna called Mukunda and Not Shiva.
Regarding Rudra Hrdaya
Have you seen that I said its not under 108 upanisads rather I say, its comes under category of ignorance hence can't be taken as pramana, because its propogate advaitik view, which Vedas don't support. Vaishnava acharyas already refuted Advaitik views with authetic paramana.
But see I have given u refernce from one of 11 major upanisads. which has commentry of all the legendary Acharyas. For you again
"You are the Lord of all other controllers such as Brahma and Siva. You are the Lord of all the devatas such as Indra. You are the Lord of all the prajapatis. You are superior to the supreme. We know you as the ultimate object of all prayers and eulogies; the Supreme Personality who is keen on performing wonderful pastimes" (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.7)
THis is one of the major upanisads out of 11 not out of 108 okie?
Quoting from Svetasvatara Upanishad you have indeed skipped the mention of Hara, Rudra and Isa which are names of Lord Shiva in the slokas of that Upanishad.
saṃyuktam etat kṣaram akṣaraṃ ca vyaktāvyaktaṃ bharate viśvam īśaḥ /
anīśaś cātmā badhyate bhoktṛbhāvāj jñātvā devaṃ mucyate sarvapāśaiḥ // 1.8 //
The Lord, Isa, supports all this which is a combination of the perishable and the
imperishable, the manifest, the effect and the unmanifest, the cause. The same Lord,
the Supreme Self, devoid of Lordship, becomes bound because of assuming the
attitude of the enjoyer. The jiva by realizing the Supreme Self is freed from all
kṣaraṃ pradhānam amṛtākṣaraṃ haraḥ kṣarātmānāv īśate deva ekaḥ /
tasyābhidhyānād yojanāt tattvabhāvād bhūyaś cānte viśvamāyānivṛttiḥ // 1.10 //
Prakriti is perishable. Hara, the Lord, is immortal and imperishable. The non-dual
Supreme Self rules both prakriti and the individual soul. Through constant
meditation on Him, by union with Him, by the knowledge of identity with Him, one
attains, in the end, cessation of the illusion of phenomena.
ko hi rudro na dvitīyāya tasthe ya imāṃl lokān īśata īśanībhiḥ /
pratyaṅ janās tiṣṭhati saṃcukocāntakāle saṃsṛjya viśvā bhuvanāni gopāḥ // 3.2 //
Rudra is truly one; for the knowers of Brahman do not admit the existence of a
second, He alone rules all the worlds by His powers. He dwells as the inner Self of
every living being. After having created all the worlds, He, their Protector, takes
them back into Himself at the end of time.
yo devānāṃ prabhavaś codbhavaś ca viśvādhipo rudro maharṣiḥ /
hiraṇyagarbhaṃ janayāmāsa pūrvaṃ sa no buddhyā śubhayā saṃyunaktu // 3.4 //
He, the omniscient Rudra, the creator of the gods and the bestower of their powers,
the support of the universe, He who, in the beginning, gave birth to Hiranyagarbha-
may He endow us with clear intellect!
yā te rudra śivā tanūr aghorāpāpakāśinī /
tayā nas tanuvā śaṃtamayā giriśantābhicākaśīhi // 3.5 //
O Rudra, Your body which is auspicious, unterryfying, showing no evil - with that
most benign body, O Dweller in the mountains, look upon us (manifest yourself) .
I guess i need not add anymore to prove my point regarding Svetasvatara Upanishad.
Hare Krishna prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Gauranga!
You have shown an advaita interpretation of Svetasvatara Upanisad. Now let us see how bona fide acaryas have interpreted the Svetasvatara Upanisad. You show 3rd Chapter 5th verse of Svetasvatara Upanishad which is:
ya te rudra siva tanur
aghorapapa-kasini taya nas tanuva santamaya
The word for word translation is:
ya - which; te - Your; rudra - O Lord who removes the sufferings of material existence; siva - auspicious; tanuh - form; aghora - delivering from fear; apapa- kasini - pure; taya - by that; nah - to us; tanuva - form; santamaya - most peaceful; giri-santa - O Lord who grants aupsiciousness to the living entities; abhicakasihi - please become manifest.
TRANSLATION-O Supreme Personality of Godhead, please show us Your auspicious, handsome, sinless, peaceful form.
The rudra in this verse as already shown means "Lord who removes the sufferings of material existence" and siva here means "auspicious" as Sudipta Roy prabhu already pointed out. It does not necessarily refer to Lord Shiva. Next verse Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.4:
yo devanam prabhavas cod bhavas ca
visvadhipo rudro maharsih hranyagarbham janayam asa purvam
sa no buddhya subhaya samyunaktu
The word for word translation is:
yah - who; devanam - of the demigods; prabhavah - origin; ca’ also; udbhavah - potency; ca - also; visva - of the universe; adhipah - monarch; rudrah - who appears as Rudra; maha-rsih - full of transcendental knowledge; hiranyagarbham - Brahma; janayam asa - created; purvam - at the beginning of creation; sah - He; nah - us; buddhya - with intelligence; subhaya - auspicious; samyunaktu - may endow.
TRANSLATION-May the omniscient Supreme Personality of Godhead who is the creator and protector of the demigods and who in the beginning fathered the demigod Brahma give us good intelligence.
Here the word rudro or rudrah emphasizes how the Lord appears as Rudra in the universe. Rudra is the Lord Krishna but in contact with material nature and is in charge of destruction. As Brahma Samhita 5.45 says:
kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Śambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.
Next verse Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.2:
eko hi rudro na dvitiyaya tasthur
ya imal lokan isata isanibhih pratyan janams tisthati sacukopanta-kale
samsrjya visva bhuvanani gopah
Word for word translation:
ekah - one; hi - certainly; rudrah - the cause of destruction; na - not; dvitiyaya - for a second; tasthuh - the learned sages accept; yah - who; iman - these; lokan - planetary systems; isate’ rules; isanibhih - with His potencies; pratyak - within; janan - the living entities; tisthati - remains; sacukopa - destroys; anta-kale - at the time of universal anihillation; samsrjay - having created; visvah - everything; bhuvanani - the planetary systems; gopah - protects.
TRANSLATION-The Supreme Personality of Godhead who is one without a second with His potencies rules the worlds He stays within the living entities He protects the worlds He created the worlds and at the last moment He withdraws them.
Rudro here refers how the Lord is also the ultimate cause of destruction. It is only by the will of Krishna that everything creates, maintains, annihilates. Not a single blade of grass moves without the will of Krishna so Lord Shiva can not perform his work of destruction without will of Krishna. Therefore Krishna is the cause of destruction and Lord Shiva acts as an instrument to perform it.
Next one is Svetasvatara Upanisad 1.10:
ksaram pradhanam amrtaksaram harah
ksaratmanau isate deva ekah tasyabhidyanad yojanat tattva-bhavad
bhuyas cante visva-maya-nivrttih
Word for word translation:
ksaram - endlessly mutable; pradhanam - material energy; amrta - eternal; aksaram - and imperishable; harah - the conditioned living entity who tries to exploit the resources of the material energy; ksara - both the mutable material energy; atmanau - and the eternal living entitiy; isate - controls; devah - the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ekah - sole; tasya - on Him; abhidyanat’ from meditation; yojanat - from yoga-tattva- bhavate - from the perception of the truth; bhuyah - completely; ca - and; ante - at the time of death; visva-maya - from the cycle of birth and death in the material world; nivrttih - liberation.
TRANSLATION-The material world is temporary. The individual spirit soul is eternal. The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of both temporary matter and the eternal individual soul. By meditating on the Lord by yoga and by understanding the truth at the end the individual spirit soul becomes free from the illusion of the world.
Here the word harah refers to the living entity. In english we see the word company can be used to mean both "business company" or "companion", it all depends on the structure of the sentence. Similarly, in this context harah refers to the conditioned living entity not Lord Shiva.
Svetasvatara Upanisad 1.8:
samyuktam etat ksaram aksaram ca
vyaktavyaktam bharate visvam isah anisas catma badhyate boktr-bhavaj
jatva devam mucyate sarva-pasaih
Word for word:
samyuktam - together; etat - this; ksaram - the perishable; eksaram - the imperishable; ca - also; vyakta - the manifested; avyaktam - the unmanifested; bharate - maintains; visvam - the universe; isah - the Supreme Lord; anisah - not the Supreme Lord; ca - also; atma - the individual living entities; badhyate - is bound; bhoktr-bhavat - because of his attempt to become the enjoyer of material nature; j atva - having understood; devam - the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mucyate - becomes liberated; sarva-pasaih - from the bondage of material existence.
TRANSLATION-The Supreme Personality of Godhead maintains this universe which consists of the temporary and eternal the manifest and the unmanifest. The individual spirit soul is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When the individual soul tries to become the supreme enjoyer he becomes bound and when he understands the real nature of the Supreme Lord he become free from bondage.
The word isah means Supreme Lord as shown above. It does not mean Lord Shiva nor is it a name of Lord Shiva.
The funny thing here is the Mayavadi guru who translated the verses you showed, turned every word that says Supreme Lord or Supreme God into Supreme Self. He changes the word devam into Supreme Self which actually refers to Krishna, the Supreme Lord. This is not only in Svetasvatara Upanisad but in every other scripture they translate they change words referring to Krishna into Atma or Supreme Self. That's why you should accept a authentic interpretation of scriptures from bona fide acaryas who come in proper guru parampara. Not from Mayavdis who twist words to entitle themselves as Supreme. Hare Krishna.
Hari Bol Prabhu jee. Please do not misinterpret Sanskrit verses. It is equivalent of someone claiming Krishna means black in any verse. With my limited knowledge of Sanskrit - I can clearly see that verse, without any doubt, refers to Rudra Shiv.
You may want to re-read it - it says Aghor, from where word Aghori comes and people from India know what I mean.
Please do not degrade yourself Prabhu jee by misinterpreting. There are good things in Vaishnaism, please share those. People like me are hear to learn it.
Dear Sharanagat prabhu,
This is not my translation. This an Gaiudya Vaishnava acarya's translation. I am not an authority but the acarya is. It all depends on whether you accept or not. Just because somewhere it says Rudra doesn't mean it refers to Shiva. Please see things as a whole. Like it or not but this is TRUTH. Thank you. Hare Krishna.
Prabhu jee Hari Bol!
No disrespect, but in all humility, I bow to you and yet disgree. Please do not make mockery of beauty of Vaishnavism, please I beg you - I like reading your informative posts and learn humility from you. it pains to see you deny obvious.
Dear Sharanagat Prabhu Ji,
Please accept my humble obeisances. Let us just see things from a big picture. Sudipta Roy prabhu once made a wonderful post saying:
"We have limited Human perception capacity because we have these 4 defects
1. we are illusioned
2. propensity to cheat
3. imperfected senses
4. commiting mistakes"
So if we have these 4 defects we are limited and our interpretations must also be limited. But does the self-realized acarya have any these defects? NO. Becuase he has completely surrednered onto Krishna. Even according to Krishna in Bhagavad Gita 12.2:
mayy āveśya mano ye māṁ
te me yukta-tamā matāḥ
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who ﬁx their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.
Swami Gaurangapada, who tranlsated the Svetasvatara Upanisad I showed, is a soul who completely surrendered onto their Lordships Sri Sri GauraNitai. So how can we question his interpretations??? How can we say from our limited perspective that our interpretation is right and this acarya is wrong???
Sharanagatji it is beyond obvious from the verses themselves quite clearly lol I also have provided the proof by further stating that those 2 lines which I have pasted above are directly taken from Sri Rudram from the Yajur Veda which is a stuti to Lord Rudra and that alone abolishes any counter-defense.
Srijon you have failed to c that some of the slokas r taken As Is directly from Sri Rudram of the Vedas! which is a stuti to Rudra!! Thus that proves without a doubt whom this Rudra is and is directly related to the Rudra of the Vedas.
yā te rudra śivā tanūr aghorā’pāpa-kāśinī
tayā nas tanuvā śantamayā giriśantābhicākaśīh ( Sv Up III-5)
This verse is "As it is" is taken from Sri Rudram of the Vedas!
yā te rudra śivā tanūr aghorā’pāpa-kāśinī
tayā nas tanuvā śantamayā giriśantābhicākaśīh ( YV Taittiriya Samhita IV-5-1-c)
Again another verse taken "As Is" from Sri Rudram.
yābhiṣuṃ giriśanta haste bibharṣy astave
śivāṃ giritra tāṃ kuru mā hiṃsīḥ puruṣaṃ jagat ( SV Up III-6)
yābhiṣuṃ giriśanta haste bibharṣy astave
śivāṃ giritra tāṃ kuru mā hiṃsīḥ puruṣaṃ jagat ( YV Taittiriya samhita IV-5-1 d)
This concludes as these verses r taken without change from Sri Rudram of the Vedas thus it concluded this Rudra is the one spoken from the Vedas