hare krishna to alljai srila prabhupadaWhile reading mahabhart i came across the story that at the end, lord krishna and Balram quits their body and then went to their spiritual abode so plz enligten me ovkrishna is absolutethere is no difference betwen his name his words, his body, his soul, his mercy and his killing.similarly there is no differnce btwen is apperence and his disapperence.if his apperence is trnscendental then his disapperence is also transcendntal as he is absolute.so we should undrstnd nt only his divine apperence bt also his disapperence tooso pl enlighten me over ths aspecthare krishayour serventSaturday at 11:01pm
You need to be a member of ISKCON Desire Tree | IDT to add comments!
Hare krishna
humble obesence to you yamuna jivan dasa prabhuji
i undrestud it in the right context.
nw i want ask some more questions, it may seems silly to u,
1. we say krishna is origin of all, and also vishnu tatvas.
nw what kinds of pastime krishna does in vaikuntha in the form of vishnu?
2.krishna and vishnu are
same , what does exctly mean? are their thnking feeling willing is same or different?
i knw i m asking frm material point of view
u would may smash ths by saying it is inconcivable.
3.why doesnt iskon engaged in feeding poor who r dying than to sankirtana as to save them must be first priority?
4. we say sarvdharman parityajya
people ask
if evryone in the world sit and chant 24 hr then what would happen?
they say suppose if suddenly every1 stops meateating the population of chicken become unchecked?
4. suppose i m eating a fish
so i can say that i m just an instrument bt why ths fish has killed it is becose of his own karma, and if we dnt eat them hw cn they get out of their own karma?
5.there r certian site who r also tech a same way
i knw the anology of serpent touchng the milk,
bt they hv gvn nearly all books iskon nt only prabhupadas bt all other acharyas and prabhujis such as radheshyam Prabhus books also.
their site is nitaiveda.com
so my question is can we read the books of our acharys frm their sites along with prabhupads books?
6. who is next acharya?
becose
on that site they hav gven list bram-madhw gaudiya achryas and after prabhupada, swawi gauragapad is acharya.
is he discple of prabhupad?
i dnt need to ask all these becose it sufficient to read and listen prabhupad bt many young are falling victim to them.
if i made any mistake plz forgv me
i m asking the questin in the mood of undrsting becose ur ans r satisfying my heart
hare krishna
your servent
Hare Krsna, Gurav Prabhu. I appreciate your sincere questioning. I understand you would like to clear up many many issues, and it might not be possible for me to find the time required to follow.
So i will reply very shortly to this last series.
1. Pastimes of Vaikuntha are the pastimes in the mood of great opulence, kingship, reverence.
2. Yes, from material point of view there is no scope to understand the spiritual energy. One must accept the spiritual point of view. And that is that Krsna's personality and consciousness is all pervasive and unlimited, and is the shelter of action for unlimited spiritual energies, who are His own. So He can manifest unlimited variety within His consciousness. Yes, inconceivable for us.
3.Spiritual energy is omnipotent. If everyone began to follow Krsna's basic instructions for civilized human, the world would become almost Vaikuntha. And if everyone began to chant Hare Krsna very seriously, the world would become Vaikuntha.
4. To this you know the answer.
4.a. We are not entitled to give to living beings their bad karma. Other arrangements are in action to do that. When we act, we will get corresponding reaction to every our deed.
5. I don't know details of nitaiveda. I think you may read Prabhupada's and other ISKCON books from wherever. If you come accross any suspicious book or title, best is to ask a devotee whom you trust.
6. Next acarya is any disciple who follows faithfully in Prabhupada's steps and instructions. Next samsthapaka-acarya we do not need, as everything needful has already been samsthapita by Prabhupada.
Hare krishna
humble obesence to you
u hv gvn a fantstic evidnce to unrstnd the subject matter.
bt for the more undrstnding let me take offensive way.
1. some 1 may say that is just an juglry of words like mayavadis use to putforth their view just they did to interpret vedant sutra
2. if it is vividly given directly that lord has quited his body then why is there need to interprt in complicated way?
interpretatin r needed when thngs r nt clear? is it nt right as fas ths subject is concerd?
3.and generaly we say that ech incrnation of lord hav thier own abode in spiritual world and they their pastimes with their devotees
then how much is it true about fish, horse and kurma incarnation?
plz sory for offense
bt if u could explin it , then it would help to many
hare krishna
your servent
I don’t think sincere inquiries may ever be offensive.
What i would answer to the above questions would be as follows.
In the first reply you ask about the contradiction between the statements. I'm not sure which contradiction you refer to, but i think it is about the statements that say that Krsna left His body (or His body was burned on the funeral) and those that say He is identical with His body (so there's no question of leaving it).
So, please consider carefully the analogy of a magician from the quoted verse 1.15.35, pasted in my first reply. Doesn’t that analogy solve the contradiction? Krsna leaves His body for our eyes, like the magician also does, but actually He doesn’t leave His real body, like the magician also doesn’t leave his real body. The same principle applies to the funeral: as a supreme magician, He left what we see as His body be burned on the pyre, but it was not His real body. Please try to grasp this subtle point (you might need to read the passage for several times over).
1. Word jugglery – one cannot say so. It is the analogy right there in the Bhagavatam verse, literally. It is not our concocted meaning. It is right there, literally. Very clear analogy.
2. You ask “if it is vividly given directly that lord has quited his body then why is there need to interprt in complicated way?” But it also vividly given that Lord’s body is eternal and nondifferent from Him. Also vividly given that He left the world in His selfsame body. So the statements apparently contradict mutually. Whenever such situation, one needs to clear it up with some additional statements which will give proper meanings to the conflicting statements, and so will remove contradictions. That is what Bhagavatam does by the analogy of magician, described above.
3. Fish and other incarnations are eternal forms of the Lord. They are fully spiritual, endless and all-pervading - They are the One Absolute person, Krsna.
Are They present in Vaikuntha?
Well, i can only quote the acaryas:
Srila Bhaktisiddhant Sarasvati Thakur says:
“ The Lord’s various incarnations—Räma, Nrsimha, Varäha, Matsya, Kürma, etc.—are all transcendental Visnu-tattva forms. Their names, forms, qualities, associates, and pastimes are eternal. Each of them controls Maya. Each has an eternal abode in Vaikuntha. Out of compassion for the living entities in this miserable world, and by Their own sweet will, these incarnations appear and exhibit Their opulence. Yet even though They incarnate in the material world, They remain fully transcendental and always protect Their independent natures.” (from Amrta Vani, chapter “108 Essential Instructions”, No.74.)
Srila Sanatana Gosvami says:
“In Vaikuntha, some devotees appear as human beings because of having attained särüpya—likeness in form—with such incarnations of the Lord as Sri Raghunätha. Others appear as munis by särüpya with sage incarnations like Sri Kapiladeva,……. Others appear as… fish by särüpya with Lord Matsya, or tortoises with Lord Kürma. … (Then Gosvamipada continues naming the endless variety of forms, some of them barely heared of.)
… The Personality of Godhead is a vast ocean of many different moods of loving exchange. His various devotees respond to His various pastimes by developing individual varieties of ecstasy, and the Lord reciprocates with these ecstasies by showing Himself in different ways. “ (Brhad Bhagavatamrta with commments, 2.4.155-157,158)
Hare krishna
i agree that
if bhavatm says that then there no greter evidnce than that. and we also more emphasis shabd praman.
bt here we find contradictory statements.
if u read mausala parv of mahabhat u wl find there disapperence of krishna and balram and their funerals by arjuna.
i accept guru shabd bt how cn we tackle ths aitih praman
plz gv transpent explnatn
thank u
hare krishna
your servent
I would suggest to clear up the contradiction of Krsna's leaving and not leaving the body, by the two verses of the Bhagavatam's 1.canto.
1.15.35: Just as the Lord maintains forms such as Matsya and gives them up, and just as a magician makes a show of giving up his body, the Lord made a show of giving up his body by which he relieved the burden of the earth. (This translation i gave is by Visvanath C.T., as it is more directly pointing to our subject).
PURPORT by Prabhupada The Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead is...., but His body is nondifferent from Him, and therefore He is known as the embodiment of eternity, knowledge and bliss. ...Under the circumstances, the Lord's dying or quitting His body is like the jugglery of a magician. The magician shows by his tricks that he is cut to pieces, burnt to ashes or made unconscious by hypnotic influences, but all are false shows only. Factually the magician himself is neither burnt to ashes nor cut to pieces, nor is he dead or unconscious at any stage of his magical demonstration. Similarly, the Lord has His eternal forms of unlimited variety, of which the fish incarnation, as was exhibited within this universe, is also one. Because there are innumerable universes, somewhere or other the fish incarnation must be manifesting His pastimes without cessation. In this verse, the particular word dhatte ("eternally accepted," and not the word dhitvä, "accepted for the occasion") is used. The idea is that the Lord does not create the fish incarnation; He eternally has such a form, and the appearance and disappearance of such an incarnation serves particular purposes. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.24-25) the Lord says, "The impersonalists think that I have no form, that I am formless, but that at present I have accepted a form to serve a purpose, and now I am manifested. But such speculators are factually without sharp intelligence. Though they may be good scholars in the Vedic literatures, they are practically ignorant of My inconceivable energies and My eternal forms of personality. The reason is that I reserve the power of not being exposed to the nondevotees by My mystic curtain. The less intelligent fools are therefore unaware of My eternal form, which is never to be vanquished and is unborn." In the Padma Puräna it is said that those who are envious and always angry at the Lord are unfit to know the actual and eternal form of the Lord. In the Bhägavatam also it is said that the Lord appeared like a thunderbolt to those who were wrestlers. Sisupäla, at the time of being killed by the Lord, could not see Him as Krsna, being dazzled by the glare of the brahma-jyotir. Therefore, the temporary manifestation of the Lord as a thunderbolt to the wrestlers appointed by Kaŕsa, or the glaring appearance of the Lord before Sisupäla, was relinquished by the Lord, but the Lord as a magician is eternally existent and is never vanquished in any circumstance. Such forms are temporarily shown to the asuras only, and when such exhibitions are withdrawn, the asuras think that the Lord is no more existent, just as the foolish audience thinks the magician to be burnt to ashes or cut to pieces. The conclusion is that the Lord has no material body, and therefore He is never to be killed or changed by His transcendental body.
SB 1.15.36 When the Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna,left this earthly planet in His selfsame form, from that very day Kali, ....
PURPORT by V.C.Thakura
This verse clarifies the condition of his giving up his body. “When he left with his body (sva-tanvä)” means according to Sridhara Svami “leaving to Vaikuntha with his body.” He gave up the earth by means of his body. ...
...The Lord, having shown his form, the center of attraction for all eyes, then took that form and disappeared from the men, who had not performed austerities but had attained the Lord's mercy, and were continually craving a vision of his form. SB 3.2.11
In this verse after showing his form (sva-bimbam) to the eyes of the world, he again withdrew it and disappeared. The verse does not say he gave up a body. The Krsna-sandarbha makes this point. ...
From these texts and comments by Prabhupada and Visvanath Th., we could sum up that although Krsna is His body and never quits it, He like a magician makes it to appear that His body was lying there and burnt by fire, and so on. It is not Him really, just like when you break the Deity, Who is the self-same Krsna, you didn't break Krsna really. He does leave what is visible to our eyes, and leaves it by His form which is essentially invisible to our eyes.
So the statements of all sastras mentioned by you are true, only one needs to understand them correctly with the help of Prabhupada and Acaryas.
I hope this was somewhat helpful. Your humble servant
Replies
hare krishna
Oh, i'm happy if anything was useful. Jay Sri Gouranga. YsY
humble obesence to you yamuna jivan dasa prabhuji
i undrestud it in the right context.
nw i want ask some more questions, it may seems silly to u,
1. we say krishna is origin of all, and also vishnu tatvas.
nw what kinds of pastime krishna does in vaikuntha in the form of vishnu?
2.krishna and vishnu are
same , what does exctly mean? are their thnking feeling willing is same or different?
i knw i m asking frm material point of view
u would may smash ths by saying it is inconcivable.
3.why doesnt iskon engaged in feeding poor who r dying than to sankirtana as to save them must be first priority?
4. we say sarvdharman parityajya
people ask
if evryone in the world sit and chant 24 hr then what would happen?
they say suppose if suddenly every1 stops meateating the population of chicken become unchecked?
4. suppose i m eating a fish
so i can say that i m just an instrument bt why ths fish has killed it is becose of his own karma, and if we dnt eat them hw cn they get out of their own karma?
5.there r certian site who r also tech a same way
i knw the anology of serpent touchng the milk,
bt they hv gvn nearly all books iskon nt only prabhupadas bt all other acharyas and prabhujis such as radheshyam Prabhus books also.
their site is nitaiveda.com
so my question is can we read the books of our acharys frm their sites along with prabhupads books?
6. who is next acharya?
becose
on that site they hav gven list bram-madhw gaudiya achryas and after prabhupada, swawi gauragapad is acharya.
is he discple of prabhupad?
i dnt need to ask all these becose it sufficient to read and listen prabhupad bt many young are falling victim to them.
if i made any mistake plz forgv me
i m asking the questin in the mood of undrsting becose ur ans r satisfying my heart
hare krishna
your servent
Hare Krsna, Gurav Prabhu. I appreciate your sincere questioning. I understand you would like to clear up many many issues, and it might not be possible for me to find the time required to follow.
So i will reply very shortly to this last series.
1. Pastimes of Vaikuntha are the pastimes in the mood of great opulence, kingship, reverence.
2. Yes, from material point of view there is no scope to understand the spiritual energy. One must accept the spiritual point of view. And that is that Krsna's personality and consciousness is all pervasive and unlimited, and is the shelter of action for unlimited spiritual energies, who are His own. So He can manifest unlimited variety within His consciousness. Yes, inconceivable for us.
3.Spiritual energy is omnipotent. If everyone began to follow Krsna's basic instructions for civilized human, the world would become almost Vaikuntha. And if everyone began to chant Hare Krsna very seriously, the world would become Vaikuntha.
4. To this you know the answer.
4.a. We are not entitled to give to living beings their bad karma. Other arrangements are in action to do that. When we act, we will get corresponding reaction to every our deed.
5. I don't know details of nitaiveda. I think you may read Prabhupada's and other ISKCON books from wherever. If you come accross any suspicious book or title, best is to ask a devotee whom you trust.
6. Next acarya is any disciple who follows faithfully in Prabhupada's steps and instructions. Next samsthapaka-acarya we do not need, as everything needful has already been samsthapita by Prabhupada.
YsY
humble obesence to you
u hv gvn a fantstic evidnce to unrstnd the subject matter.
bt for the more undrstnding let me take offensive way.
1. some 1 may say that is just an juglry of words like mayavadis use to putforth their view just they did to interpret vedant sutra
2. if it is vividly given directly that lord has quited his body then why is there need to interprt in complicated way?
interpretatin r needed when thngs r nt clear? is it nt right as fas ths subject is concerd?
3.and generaly we say that ech incrnation of lord hav thier own abode in spiritual world and they their pastimes with their devotees
then how much is it true about fish, horse and kurma incarnation?
plz sory for offense
bt if u could explin it , then it would help to many
hare krishna
your servent
Hare Krsna, Prabhu.
I don’t think sincere inquiries may ever be offensive.
What i would answer to the above questions would be as follows.
In the first reply you ask about the contradiction between the statements. I'm not sure which contradiction you refer to, but i think it is about the statements that say that Krsna left His body (or His body was burned on the funeral) and those that say He is identical with His body (so there's no question of leaving it).
So, please consider carefully the analogy of a magician from the quoted verse 1.15.35, pasted in my first reply. Doesn’t that analogy solve the contradiction? Krsna leaves His body for our eyes, like the magician also does, but actually He doesn’t leave His real body, like the magician also doesn’t leave his real body. The same principle applies to the funeral: as a supreme magician, He left what we see as His body be burned on the pyre, but it was not His real body. Please try to grasp this subtle point (you might need to read the passage for several times over).
1. Word jugglery – one cannot say so. It is the analogy right there in the Bhagavatam verse, literally. It is not our concocted meaning. It is right there, literally. Very clear analogy.
2. You ask “if it is vividly given directly that lord has quited his body then why is there need to interprt in complicated way?”
But it also vividly given that Lord’s body is eternal and nondifferent from Him. Also vividly given that He left the world in His selfsame body. So the statements apparently contradict mutually. Whenever such situation, one needs to clear it up with some additional statements which will give proper meanings to the conflicting statements, and so will remove contradictions. That is what Bhagavatam does by the analogy of magician, described above.
3. Fish and other incarnations are eternal forms of the Lord. They are fully spiritual, endless and all-pervading - They are the One Absolute person, Krsna.
Are They present in Vaikuntha?
Well, i can only quote the acaryas:
Srila Bhaktisiddhant Sarasvati Thakur says:
“ The Lord’s various incarnations—Räma, Nrsimha, Varäha, Matsya, Kürma, etc.—are all transcendental Visnu-tattva forms. Their names, forms, qualities, associates, and pastimes are eternal. Each of them controls Maya. Each has an eternal abode in Vaikuntha. Out of compassion for the living entities in this miserable world, and by Their own sweet will, these incarnations appear and exhibit Their opulence. Yet even though They incarnate in the material world, They remain fully transcendental and always protect Their independent natures.” (from Amrta Vani, chapter “108 Essential Instructions”, No.74.)
Srila Sanatana Gosvami says:
“In Vaikuntha, some devotees appear as human beings because of having attained särüpya—likeness in form—with such incarnations of the Lord as Sri Raghunätha. Others appear as munis by särüpya with sage incarnations like Sri Kapiladeva,……. Others appear as… fish by särüpya with Lord Matsya, or tortoises with Lord Kürma. … (Then Gosvamipada continues naming the endless variety of forms, some of them barely heared of.)
… The Personality of Godhead is a vast ocean of many different moods of loving exchange. His various devotees respond to His various pastimes by developing individual varieties of ecstasy, and the Lord reciprocates with these ecstasies by showing Himself in different ways. “ (Brhad Bhagavatamrta with commments, 2.4.155-157,158)
I hope this helps.
Jay Sri Gouranga
i agree that
if bhavatm says that then there no greter evidnce than that. and we also more emphasis shabd praman.
bt here we find contradictory statements.
if u read mausala parv of mahabhat u wl find there disapperence of krishna and balram and their funerals by arjuna.
i accept guru shabd bt how cn we tackle ths aitih praman
plz gv transpent explnatn
thank u
hare krishna
your servent
Hare Krsna and my humble obeisances to all.
I would suggest to clear up the contradiction of Krsna's leaving and not leaving the body, by the two verses of the Bhagavatam's 1.canto.
1.15.35: Just as the Lord maintains forms such as Matsya and gives them up, and just as a magician makes a show of giving up his body, the Lord made a show of giving up his body by which he relieved the burden of the earth. (This translation i gave is by Visvanath C.T., as it is more directly pointing to our subject).
PURPORT by Prabhupada
The Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead is...., but His body is nondifferent from Him, and therefore He is known as the embodiment of eternity, knowledge and bliss. ...Under the circumstances, the Lord's dying or quitting His body is like the jugglery of a magician. The magician shows by his tricks that he is cut to pieces, burnt to ashes or made unconscious by hypnotic influences, but all are false shows only. Factually the magician himself is neither burnt to ashes nor cut to pieces, nor is he dead or unconscious at any stage of his magical demonstration. Similarly, the Lord has His eternal forms of unlimited variety, of which the fish incarnation, as was exhibited within this universe, is also one. Because there are innumerable universes, somewhere or other the fish incarnation must be manifesting His pastimes without cessation. In this verse, the particular word dhatte ("eternally accepted," and not the word dhitvä, "accepted for the occasion") is used. The idea is that the Lord does not create the fish incarnation; He eternally has such a form, and the appearance and disappearance of such an incarnation serves particular purposes. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.24-25) the Lord says, "The impersonalists think that I have no form, that I am formless, but that at present I have accepted a form to serve a purpose, and now I am manifested. But such speculators are factually without sharp intelligence. Though they may be good scholars in the Vedic literatures, they are practically ignorant of My inconceivable energies and My eternal forms of personality. The reason is that I reserve the power of not being exposed to the nondevotees by My mystic curtain. The less intelligent fools are therefore unaware of My eternal form, which is never to be vanquished and is unborn." In the Padma Puräna it is said that those who are envious and always angry at the Lord are unfit to know the actual and eternal form of the Lord. In the Bhägavatam also it is said that the Lord appeared like a thunderbolt to those who were wrestlers. Sisupäla, at the time of being killed by the Lord, could not see Him as Krsna, being dazzled by the glare of the brahma-jyotir. Therefore, the temporary manifestation of the Lord as a thunderbolt to the wrestlers appointed by Kaŕsa, or the glaring appearance of the Lord before Sisupäla, was relinquished by the Lord, but the Lord as a magician is eternally existent and is never vanquished in any circumstance. Such forms are temporarily shown to the asuras only, and when such exhibitions are withdrawn, the asuras think that the Lord is no more existent, just as the foolish audience thinks the magician to be burnt to ashes or cut to pieces. The conclusion is that the Lord has no material body, and therefore He is never to be killed or changed by His transcendental body.
SB 1.15.36
When the Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, left this earthly planet in His selfsame form, from that very day Kali, ....
PURPORT by V.C.Thakura
This verse clarifies the condition of his giving up his body. “When he left with his body (sva-tanvä)” means according to Sridhara Svami “leaving to Vaikuntha with his body.” He gave up the earth by means of his body. ...
...The Lord, having shown his form, the center of attraction for all eyes, then took that form and disappeared from the men, who had not performed austerities but had attained the Lord's mercy, and were continually craving a vision of his form. SB 3.2.11
In this verse after showing his form (sva-bimbam) to the eyes of the world, he again withdrew it and disappeared. The verse does not say he gave up a body. The Krsna-sandarbha makes this point. ...
From these texts and comments by Prabhupada and Visvanath Th., we could sum up that although Krsna is His body and never quits it, He like a magician makes it to appear that His body was lying there and burnt by fire, and so on. It is not Him really, just like when you break the Deity, Who is the self-same Krsna, you didn't break Krsna really. He does leave what is visible to our eyes, and leaves it by His form which is essentially invisible to our eyes.
So the statements of all sastras mentioned by you are true, only one needs to understand them correctly with the help of Prabhupada and Acaryas.
I hope this was somewhat helpful. Your humble servant