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Live From Sri Mayapur Candrodaya Mandir!

Date: February 25th, 2011

Topic: Dhruva Maharaja Goes Back To Godhead

Verse: SB 4.12. 19

Speaker: HH Bhanu Swami
dadarsa vimanagryam

nabhaso 'vatarad dhruvah

vibhrajayad dasa diso

rakapatim ivoditam

TRANSLATION: As soon as the symptoms of his liberation were manifest, he saw a very beautiful airplane coming down from the sky, as if the brilliant fullmoon were coming down, illuminating all the ten directions.

PURPORT: There are different levels of acquired knowledge -- direct knowledge, knowledge received from authorities, transcendental knowledge,knowledge beyond the senses, and finally spiritual knowledge. When one surpasses the stage of acquiring knowledge by the descending process, he isimmediately situated on the transcendental platform. Dhruva Maharaja, being liberated from the material concept of life, was situated in transcendentalknowledge and could perceive the presence of a transcendental airplane which was as brilliant as the full moonlight. This is not possible in the stagesof direct or indirect perception of knowledge. Such knowledge is a special favour of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can, however, rise to thisplatform of knowledge by the gradual process of advancing in devotional service, or Krishna consciousness. [End of Srila Prabhupada's purport to SB4.12.19]

HH Bhanu Swami:  So this verse and purport is describing the culmination of Dhruva Maharaja's life. Of course when he was a young child he saw theSupreme Lord directly after he followed the instructions of Narada Muni and worshipped the Supreme Lord in the forest. Then he was instructed to rulethe kingdom for thousands of years. He did so. Finally this section describes how he left. He left and in one sense he didn't leave because heis still within the universe. The body was the same in one sense but it was spiritualized. He had the same body but suddenly it became spiritual, turnedgolden and became spiritual. So it is described how the Visnuduttas came and took him to the pole star, Dhruvaloka which was equivalent to the spiritualworld.

So here it is described how this vimana airplane came down and delivered him to the spiritual planet within this material world. So of course we havemany different types of transportation these days. Vimana in Sanskrit also means airplane or whatever and even today the use of an airplane, BangladeshAirlines for instances, vimana also.
So there are both material and spiritual means of air travel. We know about the material ones. Actually before this there was walking on foot and wehear of Lord Caitanya walking throughout India on foot. He didn't even use a car or a horse or anything He walked with His feet all over India. So thatis the most immediate means of going from one place to another.

Then of course we have other means. When people got wheels on their carts then they started going on carts, chariots or whatever. We find also in theBhagavatam etc. where people travel around on ox carts. Nanda Maharaja put everything on the carts when he moved from Mahavan to Vrindavan on manycarts and of course Krishna riding around on His chariot with Arjuna on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. So vehicles were quite common.

Historically speaking in terms of what we call modern view of history this type of transport went on for quite a while even though in the bhagavat wehave other means to travel like airplanes and spaceships, etc. This was the mode of travel for thousands and thousands of years along with the walkingprocess because we want to go from one place to the other. And eventually they got onto the more modern type of things were steam engines and bigmachines etc. like that and they started to develop in that direction, modern technology of course. You get modern trains like the Japanese train.[Laughs] That was on direction.

Then of course things got more developed then they started making airplanes, another type of vimanan, material vimana and this has become very common inthe modern world. This of course still confines us to this earth. We go from one place on earth to another. So this is material travel. That is moreefficient or quicker we can say than walking on your feet. But man of course is very ambitious so he wants to do something more than that. Then theystart to try to go beyond earth. We are stuck here more or less like this but they want to get beyond that so then they start going upwards withrocket ships etc. conquer space or whatever the universe, go to the moon, go to Mars or go to other planets like this.

This has been their endeavour in the last half century or so, sixty years or so, shooting rockets off to space and all of that in an attempt to discoverwhat is there and try to conquer. We are very, very limited in what we can do still we make this attempt to go beyond our limits on this earth'ssurface. In this way we get a feeling of our powers. So this has been the attempt and no matter what we do of course we are always limited. Our meansare limited and our machines are material.

So if we get the most advanced Starwars machine however [Laughter] then we can go across the universe still it is within the universe. They don't gobeyond the universe. They are still going from planet to planet, galaxy to galaxy within this universe. They are not going beyond it. This of coursethey think is fantastic. "We can go somewhere." A billion miles across the universe in three seconds or whatever! Maybe we can do that in the future.So still it is limited because it is within this material universe. Material means with material results. So we can keep trying to do this but it is alllimited.

Of course in the scriptures like the Bhagavatam we have the vimana. There are two types. One is the devatas have vimanas and they can go fromSvargaloka to down here or somewhere else in the universe very quickly. That is one type but we know that the devatas are also limited. They stay withinthe material universe. They can't go beyond it. So that type of vimana even if it sounds fantastic in the Bhagavatam it is also limited vehicle like arocket ship or the Starwars-ship or whatever. It is limited. You can go within the universe only.

Then of course you have the other vimana which is described here. This is the vehicle that takes you beyond the material world, beyond birth anddeath, beyond karma. This is a very special vehicle, something quite different from that. It may look like it but it is actually quite special.Interesting to know that the vimanas are described as temples.  This is also a vimana but it is a temple actually but it is called vimana.

The South Indian Temple actually is technically a vehicle also. Of course it is modern and it is a real vehicle going to the spiritual world also. Ofcourse we have other vehicles like this. Anyway this vehicle was described to be like the full moon. It was illuminating like the full moon, very, verybeautiful a vehicle but as I said different vehicles go to different places. It is based on our knowledge. If we get material knowledge we can domaterial thing and with spiritual knowledge we can do spiritual things. If we have material knowledge we can get material destinations and if we getspiritual knowledge we can get spiritual destinations.

So Prabhupada mentions here the different types of knowledge. One of course is the everyday knowledge that we have using our eyes, ears and senses, alsotouch - direct sense knowledge, which is convenient for us. By this we can live in the material world, support our body and infer so many things. Thenwe get the next one, using that observation we can infer this or whatever. Anuman we get inference we get indirect knowledge. So these are very usefulfor us and it helps us in many aspects - we can read books and so many things - that is inference.
There are common types of knowledge by again it is limited because our senses are material, mind and intelligence are material so all is limited.How far can we get with material knowledge? This is what the scientists are doing. They have pratyaksa and anuman and we get material results. It may befantastic but it is limited by material means. It is all material. Material knowledge is limited to within the material realm.

Then we have sabda or spiritual knowledge - knowledge coming down from authorities, authorized knowledge, eternal knowledge. By hearing that we canget a different result. So this gives us the opportunity to get spiritual knowledge and therefore get a spiritual destination and of course throughthat we get direct perception of the Supreme Lord. So we get perception but it is a different perception. Here we get perception now and it is material.Through spiritual knowledge we develop a different type of perception by which we get a different destination and perceive the Supreme Lord.

So that is the result of spiritual knowledge. This is what Dhruva got. Of course he was very fortunate that even without scripture but simply themercy of Narada Muni and his teachings on devotion this is how the Lord became merciful to him and showed Himself to him at a very young age. Theknowledge is necessary. The practice is necessary. Narada Muni gave the knowledge. Dhruva practiced bhakti and the Lord was merciful and showedHimself. Obviously he had a very, very special vision, spiritual vision. Later on at the end of his life again he was able to see the Lord finallyand this describes how he saw the Lord. The vimana came down. He got on and it took him to Dhruvaloka and there the Supreme Lord was standing. So he gotdirect perception again after so many thousands of years. So what is that authoritative knowledge or sabda?

What we accept as authoritative knowledge is of a different source. We have the Vedas or the sruti. Sruti means heard, not composed, eternal. Vyasadevwrites it down. He doesn't compose it. It is eternal. And at the beginning of Kali-yuga Vedavyasa appears and divides it up into four parts. Asdescribed in the Bhagavatam he gives it to his students to pass on in the future. So we have got the rg, the sama, yajur and atharva and of coursefrom the Vedas you get the Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanisads and the Samhitas. Brahmanas are .. This is karma kanda, uttar-mimansa. The Upanisada, jnanakanda all about Brahman and atma. The Samhitas deal with upasana ultimately the worship of Visnu.

Vedavyasa also found that it was rather difficult for people to access the Vedas in Kali yuga and of course the Vedas are only taught to people of thehigher classes. Sudras or outcastes cannot read the Vedas. In Kali-yuga everybody is sudra or less, how are they going to access the Vedas at all.Therefore he wrote the Mahabharata which is Itihasa or history or epic for the common people. Outcastes and sudras can also read. They did not have tohave qualification. In the Mahabharat we have the philosophical essence in the Bhagavad-gita. So that is one way to give it.

Another way to give it was to write the Puranas. We know there are eighteen maha puranas or major puranas. They are divided according to who they areaimed at, who is the audience. The tamasic Puranas for people in tama-guna, worship of Siva. Rajarsic Puranas or worship of Brahman for people inraja-guna. There are sattvic Puranas for people in sattva-guna who worship Visnu. So Vedasvyasa thought, "Okay now my work is complete." But asdescribed in the first canto of the Bhagavatam he was sitting by the river in the Himalayas. He wasn't feeling quite satisfied after he did all this. 

Then Narada Muni came. He said, "You have made a mistake. Don't do this. Don't present many types of worship, many processes for different people indifferent gunas. Present only one process, one object of worship."  Based on this Vedasvyasa then devised one of the Puranas and this became theSrimad-Bhagavatam with one process, bhakti and one object of worship, Krishna. "Don't confuse everybody, just write one."

So basically we have the Vedas which are eternal but then we have the Mahabharat written by Vedavyasa and you have the Puranas written byVedavyasa. Vedavyasa also wrote the Brahma-sutras to explain Upanisads, the jnana. So he wrote three things but all of these are summarized or concludedin the Bhagavatam.

As we know Lord Caitanya said that the natural commentary of the Brahma-sutras is the Bhagavatam. In the Bhagavatam we have an hint of thatin the first verse, janmad yasya yatah. So these are the Brahma-sutras in the Bhagavatam and this is some of it. As for the Puranas we know thatVedvyasa wrote the Puranas and then Narada said, "Get rid of this. Just write the essence of everything." So he wrote the Bhagavatam and theMahabharat. The Mahabharat is ... So therefore everything culminates in the Srimad Bhagavatam. So if we are looking for sabda or a process of spiritualknowledge we go to the Bhagavatam. This opens the final conclusion without any discrepencies.

Therefore it is said that Srimad Bhagavatam is the highest fruit on the desire tree of the Vedas. We all want different things from scripture, wehave some motive. We want something out of the Vedas. What do we want? So there are many results you can get from the Vedas. So what does Bhagavatamgive? It is the highest truth, highest result. And what is the highest result? Of course it is prema. So there are many, many results that you canget and it is the Bhagavatam which gives prema. Other scriptures also give. There are other bhakti scriptures but this gives the highest prema which wewill explain.

We get all sorts of prema in relation to God but there are many conceptions of God, many perceptions of God. Kapila as is explained in the section onKapiladev's teachings, just as one object has many qualities and is perceived by the senses in various ways so too Bhagavan is perceiveddifferently by various scriptural practices. So different parts of the scriptures will give different practices and as a result you see a differentform of the Lord. They may appear completely different. "This is the Lord." "That is the Lord." We have an argument. It is all the Lord but is perceiveddifferently according to the different ...

So just as we would have a glass of milk - this example is given by Srila Visvanath Cakravati Thakur. If you perceive it only with the eye, what doyou see? Something white! If you perceive it with the tongue then it is something sweet. You only know it is sweet. If you touch it, it is cool orwarm or whatever the texture of it is. Through the ear all we hear is the word milk. So we get a little bit of knowledge from all the different sensesbut we don't get complete knowledge.

Mind takes what we get from all the different senses, puts it all together and we get a complete understanding of what milk is as far as materialknowledge is concerned and we get a complete understanding of what milk is, the colour and the taste, and the texture and the liquidity etc.

In the same way different scriptures will reveal different aspects of the Supreme Lord. One section of the Vedas dealing with karma kanda will tellyou to do sacrifices, karma yoga and all of that. This gives one aspect, the material aspect - Svargaloka, Brahmaloka and all these things in thematerial world. Material desires! If you go to the jnana section, the Upanisads and you get Brahman, some abstract understanding of God as light,God is something!

If we go to the Bhagavatam we understand that God is Bhagavan Who includes everything else through the process of bhakti. So if we follow all thedifferent scriptures we will get the Supreme Lord but in different ways or different aspects. Of course the first one, that is actually not directlythe Supreme Lord. Brahman is also the Supreme Lord because we say that the Supreme Lord is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. But it is a lesser aspectof the Lord, a lesser realization.

So we have all of these different perceptions of the Lord from the vaguest perception, then we get a little more form, a little more qualities and thenmore and more qualities until finally we get full manifestation of qualities in Bhagavan. This is actually were we understand the personal aspect of theLord.

Paramatma knowledge, some personality is there but mainly it is power - power to direct the material world, power to know everything. When we get toBhagavan then we get to know the loving aspect of the Supreme Lord, His relationship with His devotees, how He interacts with His devotees. So thatis realization of Bhagavan. So different scriptures give different process and different realizations of the Lord. Not wrong but not complete. The mostcomplete realization covers everything just as $100 also has $2 or $5 in it. So realization of Bhagavan gives the complete realization.

So from scriptures we get foundational knowledge of where to go, what to do and everything, we get a process and then it also tells us about a result.If we follow the process we get that certain result. So based on the type of scripture we chose obviously we get different results.

Therefore as I said the highest scripture is the Bhagavatam can give us a particular result. So we have the karma scriptures which give materialresults, we have a jnana scripture which gives liberation and realization of Brahman. We get bhakti scriptures that will give us higher than that -bhakti and prema. And we have Bhagavatam at the top which gives us special prema. Or there are different destinations. You get Svarga if you do karmayoga or whatever. You get Brahman through jnana yoga and we get Vaikuntha through bhakti yoga. Or we get material enjoyment through karma yoga. We getBrahmananda or the bliss of Brahman through jnana and we get prema through bhakti.
So we get different destination, different experience by different scriptures. This gives us a triangle. Usually we put the triangle the otherway. We put the topmost but I put it the other way around. It shows that the best results are the biggest, the most complete. Otherwise it looks likesmallest on the top but it is the biggest, the most complete of all.

This we know from Bhagavatam verse in canto one that this Absolute Truth is of three phases, three perceptions but ultimately it is all one. So nothingis incorrect but Bhagavan is complete. This is actually a very principle part of our philosophy along with another verse. When we come to Bhagavanthen there is a little problem there because we also got support of Bhagavan. Bhagavan is only one, even Brahman, Bhagavan and Paramatma, it isall one and yet Bhagavan also is one. But mysteriously He takes many forms also. These are described in the Bhagavatam also.
In fact the sages of Naimisaranya asked, "Tell us about all the different avataras of the Lord." Then there is a whole description given by Suta andlater by Sukadev Goswami of all the different avataras. Many, many avataras are there.

The avataras can be classed according to Their powers and the qualities that They manifest. Even if we say They are one sometimes the Lord will manifesta few qualities and in a different form He will manifest more qualities; like for instance the sage Kapila doesn't manifest all the qualities whereasVaraha manifests more power. So we get various manifestations of qualities even though it is all the Supreme Lord. So, why the Lord does this? He doesbecause He is infinite and He has infinite desires to do infinite number of things in different ways. So He takes different forms and does different things.

We have performance of Bhagavan. At the bottom we have the avesa forms, the saktyaves-avatara forms. These are actually not Bhagavan at all. They arejivas but they are endowed especially by the Lord eternally with that special sakti. So they have a very special position more than other jivas.Devatas also have power but that is in a lesser category. Here these have eternal endowment of power. For instance Narada Muni has the power of bhaktiand the Kumaras have the power or sakti of jnana eternally. They are in the spiritual world. They come in the material world.

 So we have these fixed avesa avataras of the Lord and which are jivas with special powers. Above that we have the full forms of the Lord but even Theyhave various manifestations of powers so we have this prabhava. They have lesser powers. They show a very impermanent form. They appear and disappearvery quickly like Mohini or Hamsa. Then we have those which are a little more important and have more powers, like Kurma; Matsya; Nara-narayana. Andwe have those which are even more power than Them - Varaha; Vamana; Hayagriva etc. 

These classifications are according to Rupa Goswami in Lagu Bhagavatamrta. And above that we have purnat purna, They manifest more qualities, morepowers. Who are the punar ones? We have Nrsimhadeva, Ramacandra and Krishna.Krishna is the power. That is the final form and the complete manifestationof qualities and powers and mercy etc. This of course is indicated very clearly at the beginning of the Bhagavatam in this particular famous versekrsnas tu bhagavan svayam. [SB 1.3.28] This is the other principle of Gaudiya philosophy and the Bhagavatam - that Krishna is the final form, thecomplete form, complete manifestation of all qualities of the Supreme Lord.

We have Nrsimhadev of course and then we have Rama and then we have Krishna. What is special about Krishna? I said He manifests more qualities and morepowers; more compassion etc. The special qualities of course are enumerated by Rupa Goswami in the 'Nectar of Devotion' as four special qualities. Thereare sixty four qualities of the Supreme Lord and the other forms have sixty and Krishna will have sixty four. He has four special things that Hemanifests that the other forms of Bhagavan don't manifest. One of that is rupa-madhurya which means the sweetness of His form.

All forms of the Lord are beautiful. They are all spiritual. They are not material. And they are all spiritually attractive but according to Theirpastimes and according to Their form They are attractive in different ways. So Krishna contains all the other attractions of all the other forms likeKurma, Matsya, Hayagriva and everyone else but something extra special - madhurya, some very sweet feeling upon seeing that form. So it means a veryintimate type of love, very natural because what is that form? It is a human like form with which you can relate very nicely more than with the pig formor the lion form or whatever. And it is not just a human form. It is a young form. Sometimes even baby, young boy, not older person but a very youngperson.

Also He is a cowherd boy. He is not a king or a prince. He is actually a cowherd boy, a very common type of person. So this particular form ofKrishna involves a very intimate type of, informal type of love. This is madhurya-rupa. And because He has that very intimate type of form Hedevelops intimate types of devotees of all sorts.

So we get a full manifestation of all types of love manifesting in Krishna which we won't find even in Nrsimha or Visnu or whatever other forms of theLord. They are all prema of course but it is not manifest to the same degree because here we have all types of devotees. Other ones it is all servants,dasya rasa but with Krishna we get dasya, sakya, vatsala and madhurya or all sorts of varities - not only that. It is very intense and very intimate. Ofcourse we have madhurya rasa with Laxmi Narayan. It does not have the same intimacy as with Krishna. So all types of devotees have a very intimaterelationship with Krishna and consequently that pastimes are very sweet and intimate with Krishna compared to the other forms. Krishna would notmanifest pastimes like Krishna with Yasoda. Krishna gets tied up by Mother Yasoda. Rama will not get tied up. Visnu will not get tied up but Krishnagets tied up.

We have many pastimes of Krishna that would not manifest in the other forms.And of course we have the venu madhurya. Krishna particularly plays theflute. What is so special about the flute is that the sound of the flute is non-different from Krishna's prema, that sweet prema. When anyone hears thatthey begin melting with prema. The rocks will melt and the trees will be oozing honey, the flowers blossom and the river becomes petrified. Every body become completely bewildered by prema on hear that flute, that sweet prema of Vrindavan.

So it is a very, very intense type of love that allured by Krishna. But even in Krishna we have different forms. We have Dvaraka Krishna, then we haveMadhurya Krishna and we have a Vraja Krishna. It is explained in the 'Nectar of Devotion' that the Dvaraka form is punar which is complete but theMathura form is purna-tara which means more complete. And the Vrindavan form is purna-tamah which means most complete. Even though it is all Krishna andKrishna is the Svayam Bhagavan, Svayam Bhagavan will manifest different amounts in intensities in these different places. He is the same personactually. He is kaishore in all three. He doesn't age after he leaves Vrindavan. He is the same age or the same form but the sweetness manifest inVrindavan is the most; little less in Mathura and lesser in Dvaraka.

Therefore the inhabitants in these different places have different experiences with Krishna.  So both the places are categorized as purna,purnatara and purna-tamah.  So this is the Krishna in Vrindavan, the highest one. Even in Vrindavan we have various degrees. There is santa rasa which isthe bottom. It is quite neutral. Then we have dasya rasa and above that we have more intensity, sakhya rasa and more intensity in vatsalya rasa andthen the most intensity in madhurya rasa. We can measure it all in terms of the intensity of the relationship of the devotee with Krishna. That isgreater. Everything is spiritual, everything is wonderful and it is eternal. Everything is perfect and satisfying for everybody but objectively speakingthe intensity in madhurya rasa is much greater than any other.

That is because even in prema we have various levels. In 'The Nectar of Devotion' it says that we get bhava and then we get prema but in UjjvalaNilamani Rupa Goswami is saying prema actually has many levels. So in prema you get rati then we get prema and then more intense you get sneha and inconjugal rasa you get mana and you get pranaya. Then you get raga, anuraga and then the topmost or most intense is mahabhava. So we get various levels.For instance the vatsalya rasa goes up in raga level. That is its limit, constant raga whereas sakhya rasa may go up to sneha and little pranaya.

In this way in Vrindavam most of the various intensities of love are manifested. And topmost we get with madhurya rasa which is the maha bhavamanifesting. So anuraga and mahabhava only manifest with madhurya rasa and not with the other rasas at all. Then even in madhurya rasa we get differentgroups. [Laughter] So Ujjvala Nilamani explains the different gopis and how they interact with Krishna and we have many, many different levels, sublevels and whatever. Ultimately at the top we get Candravali and Radha and of the two Radha is the topmost. Radha of course includes her whole group ofthe astasakhis and other sakhis who are in Her group. Spiritually they are all different main gopis but they all have their groups with them.

When we talk about one sakhi we talk about the whole group and not just one person. At the very top we find Radha and Her group of sakhis. Again this isthe intensity of the love and because of the intensity of their love it is the most pleasing to Krishna. Although Candrvali is very co-operative andgentle and whatever, Radha's love is the most intense therefore Krishna chooses Radha over Candravali. Therefore we get Radha at the very top andall the gopis with Her.

So therefore the topmost from is Krishna with Radha and the sakhis. [Audience say Haribol] In our theology we have Radha and Krishna at the topof everything. And how is that presented? It comes through the knowledge. That is our vehicle, that is the Bhagavatam. Through the Bhagavatam weperform our bhakti and we get our knowledge, our bhakti, our goal of Krishna and all of those wonderful pastimes in the tenth canto etc. Through thatthen we can begin to realize Krishna in Vrindavan, all the different rasas especially the highest one of Radha and Krishna. That is what we have -Radha Krishna and of course we have Radha and Krishna combined as Gauranga. This way we have a complete form in Lord Caitanya where Radha and Krishnacombine.

Therefore we have vimanas and how to go to different places. So if we want to go to the spiritual world definitely we have to use the scripture and ifwe are using the scripture then we have to see which scripture gives the best result. The highest result is given through the Srimad Bhagavatam andwhat is that? Worship of Krishna! Then we have all the different rasas culminating in worship of Radha and Krishna in Vrindavan. So that is ourfinal goal. It is the goal therefore it is the object of our worship. Hare Krishna. [Applause]

Prabhu: Hare Krishna. Maharaj you spoke about the gradation and the basis of intensity of the relationship. One understanding that I heard from GirirajSwami that the intensity is the pleasure that Krishna derives from the relationship. As it becomes more intense Krishna derives more pleasure.

HH Bhanu Swami: It is obvious that the more intense the love the more attracted Krishna is to that, the more satisfied He is with that. ThereforeKrishna is more attracted to Radha because of the intensity of Her love.What is the intensity of Her love? What does it feel like? He then becomesCaitanya Mahaprabhu to taste that and understand what is the taste and intensity of Her love. So He understands that is the greatest love. Radha'slove is the greatest. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to taste the greatness of that love.

Prabhu: Maharaj in the purport Srila Prabhupada explains about the different stages of knowledge. Can you kindly elaborate how to understand each ofthese stages more clearly?

HH Bhanu Swami: It seems to develop out of order because the indirect knowledge comes later than the direct. Direct is pratyaksa and indirect willbe anumana.

Prabhu: So the five stages and this indirect perception...

HH Bhanu Swami: As I was saying the indirect is anumana, direct is pratyaksa and authorized or coming from authority is sabda. Then the other two thingsare a little vague what they stand for. Whether spiritual knowledge....Spiritual knowledge and transcendental knowledge, I supposesyou can say that these three levels are direct perception, spiritual perception after we get sabda. As I said we get sabda then we getrealization and perception of God which could be Brahman or can be Bhagavan. There are two different levels or spiritual knowledge. I am not the body, Iam Brahman and the other one is you realize the Supreme Lord also. That would be the second level of knowledge. They definitely explain these terms.

Prabhu: Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you for your wonderful presentation. Can we please hear something more about the vimana of the South Indian Temples?What have they achieved? And is ...really a vimana a temple or a temple a vimana and who is the driver and what is the ... [Laughter]

HH Bhanu Swami: Well a vimana is an expensive...in South India for instance the Venketeswara Temple will have to get a roundish one and the ... templehas a long type square one. There are various shapes that of course are derived from certain sastra, the South India scriptures on architecture. Sothere are various sorts. Whether they actually represent the same vimana I don't actually know but obviously it is the temple of the Supreme Lord so itis a vehicle also. You see the Lord and you see the vehicle - you can go anyway in this house. Yes a vimana itself is an airplane but it is generallycalled His house, the house of the Lord, the dwelling place of the Lord. We can also....why is that different shape...sastras.

Prabhu:  Sri Rangam Temple, the central sactorium, thats the vimana temple that came from Dhruvaloka.

HH Bhanu Swami: ...descended from Brahmaloka.

Prabhu: Maharaj we see how Narada is witnessing all these relationships so is he also able to experience then by witnessing them?

HH Bhanu swami: Narada?

Prabhu Yes. He goes to different lilas and sees Krishna so can he also taste them also?
HH Bhanu Swami: Narada Muni is a saktyavesa avatara and the Lord is eternal so obviously he is not like us. He can perceive everything and watcheverything. He has much more knowledge you can say than us. But there is also limitation according to the will of the Lord. So generally he is dasyarasa so therefore he can't really appreciate higher rasa. Even in Vrindavan those who are in dasya rasa or vatsalya rasa never see the madhurya rasa. Itis a contradiction to their rasa so they don't get involved in that at all. What to speak of NradaMuni, he is not even a resident there.Prabhu: We see that somehow he is attracted to that means there must be some taste otherwise why will he be attracted?

HH Bhanu Swami: Yes. Obviously even Siva or Latchmi became attracted but she couldn't get in also. So according to your qualification you can have theexperience. You may have attraction for it just like Akrura. Uddhava admired the people of Vrindavan but he was in Mathura. He was in a totally differentbhava. Then aiswarya is also associated with Krishna in a very intimate way but he had aisvarya so he is in a lower category. But he could appreciate,he said, "I pray that I could have devotion like them, like the gopis." But he is in dasya rasa but he could appreciate but not get into it.

Prabhu: Maharaj when the sat-darsan of the Lord, the real darsan of the Lord, my understanding when I read Prabhupada's books is when a person ontransference of his body, when he leaves his body he goes Gokul Vrindavan and then from Gokul Vrindavan he goes to Goloka Vrindavan.

HH Bhanu Swami: That is one process. The one process is described in the Brhad-bhagavatamrta by Visvanath Cakravati. He says that some people saythat first you are born in a universe were Krishna is performing His pastimes and you get born into a family of that particular gopi forinstance. You are born in a particular family with a mother and a father cowherd and you grow up but then when you are a certain age you participatewith Krishna in those pastimes. Then you go to the spiritual world and then you get to know who your mother and father are there. So you get someidentity while you are in the material world in the prakrta pastimes and then you go there.

He says some people say this and he has no disagreement with them but in Madhurya Kadambini he describes how when you get to the prema stage yousuddenly just walk into the spiritual world and you just merge into your spiritual body. You give up this body and you go to the spiritual world.That is another way. Then we have this way were you get on an airplane and go off to some loka. There are various ways according to your desire,Krishna's desire and the mood you have, I suppose.

Prabhu: One more question. You have three categories of sastra. You have the karma-kanda, the jnana-kanda and the upasanas. Do we utilize the karma kandaand the jnana kanda sastras or are they interrelated?
HH Bhanu Swami: They all have their purpose, like we have our aparadha - don't criticize the sruti. Sruti ninda is an aparadha. Don't criticize thesruti. Sruti means the Vedas and one portion of the Vedas is the karma kanda portion. Karma kanda is nonsense! No. It is part of the Vedas. VisvanathCakravati said therefore we don't criticize. We understand that the Vedas have different types of processes for different types of people.

So people who are materially attached let them at least follow rules and regulations, let them do some worship. It will give them some sensegratification but let them at least respect the Lord and they can worship devatas and whatever according to some process and control their senses andget their sense gratification. Let them do that. That is the lowest level.

Higher than that karma kanda is the jnana kanda. And jnana kanda says okay when you get tired of all that material enjoyment then you renounce it all.My understanding is that you can get liberation from material world. So that is jnana kanda. So we have various types of processes for different people.It is said in the Kapila section that according to the scripture you see God in different ways. So you can Him in Svargaloka or you can see Him in muktiin Brahman or you can see Him as Bhagavan.

However in Kali yuga as Narada Muni told Vyasa don't recommend all these different process. It would confuse the people. Recommend one process foreverybody - for the materially attached, for the materially unattached and for the devotees, one process, only krsna-bhakti. That is all. Why? BecauseKrishna is the most attractive form and the people of Kali yuga are the most fallen. So they need the most attractive form. Therefore just tell them toworship Krishna and that would cover everything.

Prabhu: Does it include the knowledge of the karma kanda and upasanas, the bhagavat , is it interrelated?
HH Bhanu Swami: Well no. We see in the Bhagavatam karma is explained in terms of varnasrama. In the section on Prahlad there is a section onvarnasrama; eleventh canto again there is a section on varnas and asramas.And we have jnana. Kapila explains jnana also. In the eleventh canto againKrishna explains to Uddhava a few chapters on jnana and Brahman etc. And even yoga is explained by Kapila in the third canto and again by Krishna inthe eleventh canto. There is a very detailed description of the cities you can get etc.

So these are all explained, why? One reason is because it is scripture so it should explain everything. But as we know from the very beginning thedirection of Narada Muni was show that bhakti is supreme. Everything else should not be encouraged. So of course the other aspect is to attract otherpeople and by becoming attracted maybe they will get association with devotees and develop attraction for Krishna.

Prabhu: Maharaj you mention Narada Muni, Uddhava and even the Vrajavasis they don't have access although they may have appreciation. Even theVrajavasis may not see madhurya of Krishna with the gopis but then we also know there is Narada kund here. In Goloka is there Narada kund? That is theplace where Narada had taken a gopis form on the basis of the fact that he was attracted. So therefore the desire was augmented. My question is does itapply to everyone including Uddhava that potentially and in time that we will attain a form that corresponds with our desire and attraction? Once theattraction is there doesn't it mean that automatically we will - following the principle that Krishna fulfils all desires?

HH Bhanu Swami: well logically of course everyone will desire to be a gopi. In that logic everyone will end up as a gopi. There will be no other rasa inthe spiritual world accept gopis. Temporarily I think they can assume forms like this but that wouldn't be their permanent bhava. We still see NaradaMuni travelling around the universe. He is not a gopi. So temporarily by the mercy of Krishna he can experience it but it is not a permanent rasa.
Prabhu: Hare Krishna Maharaj. Thank you for your wonderful presentation. I have a couple of questions regarding rasas. First one is we have the fivemain rasas which are santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. We find in Caitanya-caritamrta Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu discouraged santa. He said thatHe will give only four processes so my question is why? 

My second question is we see in the associates of the Lord those in different incarnations are dasya or sakhya or some brahman sakhya orvisvambara sakhya. When they come with Caitanya Mahaprabhu do they all get madhurya because Mahaprabhu came to give madhurya rasa? So those associateswho in previous pastimes of the Lord were in dasya or sakhya did they get madhurya rasa in Mahaprabhu's lila?

HH Bhanu Swami: Okay. First one, yes. Santa is generally accepted on the same level as dasya except because there is a perception of the Lord butvery, very little service. So it is described that rsis or sages in the spiritual world. The sages who saw Krishna coming into the arena of Kamsa.They saw this feast, santa personified. So they don't have a very developed relationship. As dasya they should serve Him and therefore the intimacy ofservice gives a certain level of prema. That isn't developed in santa. So it is very limited so therefore it is para rasa but it is a very lowest sectionof rasa. It is even said that those who have jnana misra bhakti and never give that up will get santa rasa in the spiritual world. They have littlejnana mixed with bhakti, jnana misra bhakti so they will have santa rasa to serve the Lord.

The other question about Mahaprabhu's lila. When we use the word madhurya it is everything Krishna, like in Vrindavan also is madhurya in one sense butthat doesn't mean it is madhurya rasa. Madhurya in that sense means sweet, intimate. So everything is intimate there but vatsalya is always vatsalyabut everything has that intimacy. So of course Caitanya Mahaprabhu is non-different from Krishna so it is like that but actually it is change. Soit is not called madhurya it is call audarya in Lord Caitanya's pastimes rather than madhurya.  Audarya means very generous, very munificent. So LordCaitanya is most merciful to all the fallen souls. He wants to give out Radha Krishna prema to even the aparadhis.

That is the dominant mood of Lord Caitanya but in the lila we will find people in dasya. Srivas Pandit is like that in dasya rasa. And vatsalya rasais there with the parents of Lord Caitanya, Saci Mata and Jagannath Misra. We have sakya rasa there with Balarama, Lord Nityananda and the dvadasagopas, the associates of Nityananda Prabhu. So they are in sakhya rasa. Then we find others in conjugal rasa, manjari bhava etc. in Vrindavan.Prabhu: All the devotees in Iskcon are followers of Caitanya Mahaprabhu so does it mean that we don't go back to Radha Krishna's pastimes?

HH Bhanu Swami: That is the general but we see that even in Lord Caitanya's pastimes some people weren't. So we have the sakhya rasa there. Rather thanbe a gopi they would be sakha. We have Balarama and we have Sridama. So some people want to be in that and some of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's associates like Murari Gupta were worshippers of Rama. Different quorum there, little strange but never the less so! No everybody but as a general idea on goes to Krishna in Vrindavana but again that is according to our worship.

So if you worship like this and you concentrate on this as you know from the eight chapter of Bhagava-gita, what you think of at the time you are dyingyou attain. So life after life if you are concentrating on Krishna you are not going to end up with Nrsingadev or Rama in the spiritual world aftermany births of worshipping Radha and Krishna. It depends on who you worship and how you worship, that is how you get your perfection in the spiritualworld. I think we have to end there. Hare Krishna. [Applause]