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Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisance. All glories to Srila Prabhupada & Srila Gopal Krishna Maharaj.

This discussion of Ramananda Roy with Lord Chaitanya

The Lord Chaitanya inquired, "Please quote some verses from Scripture about the ultimate goal of life for the human being."

 Sri Ramananda Roy, "A person who is sincere in his occupational duty will gradually develop the sense of God consciousness." The purport is that human life is meant for understanding one's relationship with the Supreme Lord and acting in that way. Any human being can dovetail himself with the service of the Lord by discharging his prescribed duties or occupational performances. The prescribed duties of the four classes or four divisions of human society are described in the Bhagavad Gita, Eighteenth Chapter, 42-44 verses. Persons who are strictly following the rules and regulations of these eight divisions of human society are actually satisfying the Supreme Lord. This regulated life, when culminating in devotional service to the Lord, attains its perfection. Otherwise it is a useless waste of time.

 In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Sri Krishna, has mentioned that the human being can attain the highest perfectional stage of life by worshipping the Supreme Lord, from Whom everything has emanated, by dint of his occupational duties.  Ramananda Roy wanted to present this fact before the Lord. But, apparently, simply discharging the ritualistic duties is not perfection. Therefore Lord Chaitanya said that it is external. Lord Chaitanya' s purport was that a man having a material conception of life, even if he follows the ritualistic regulations, cannot attain the highest perfection.

 He rejected it and said: "Tell Me if you know of something beyond." Therefore Ramananda Roy stated that it is better to give up the result of fruitive activities. He quoted a verse from Srimad Bhagavad Gita, Ninth Chapter, 37^th verse. The Lord says there that, whatever one does, whatever one eats, whatever one sacrifices, whatever one gives or whatever austerity one undergoes for a certain achievement-everything should be dedicated to the service of the Supreme Lord. In Srimad Bhagwatam also, Eleventh Canto, Second Chapter, 36th verse, it is stated that one should submit everything, the result of his fruitive activities, either by his body, by his speeches, by his mind, by his senses, by his intelligence, by his soul to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayan.

 Lord Chaitanya rejected this second statement of Ramananda Roy, and said, "If you know something higher, state it." The instructions of the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagwatam, to offer everything to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a better proposal than the impersonal idea of the Supreme Lord. But it is still short of surrendering activities to the Supreme Lord. Such activity of the fruitive worker will continue his material existence. He is simply instructed here to offer the fruitive result of his work to the Supreme Lord, but he has no idea of how to get out of the material entanglement.

After this second rejection by Lord Chaitanya, Ramananda proposed that one should forsake his occupational activities, and by such detachment rise to the transcendental plane. This is, in other words, renunciation of one's worldly life. In this connection Ramananda Roy gave two evidences from the Shastras: in the Srimad Bhagwatam, Eleventh Canto, Eleventh Chapter, the Lord says, "In the religious Scriptures I have described ritualistic principles, and how one becomes situated in devotional service. That is the highest perfectional stage of religiousness." Similarly, in the Bhagavad Gita, Eighteenth Chapter, 67th verse, the Lord says: "You give up all kinds of religiousness and just surrender unto Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I shall protect you from all sinful reactions, and you have nothing to be aggrieved over. "

 On hearing this from Ramananda Roy, Lord Chaitanya rejected it again. By rejecting Lord Chaitanya wanted to demonstrate that simple renunciation is not sufficient. Generally, in the renounced order of life, there are two kinds of philosophers: the goal of one is Nirvana, and of the other, the impersonal quality of the Brahman effulgence. They cannot conceive that they can reach beyond, or that there is a Spiritual Sky with Vaikuntha Planets. Ramananda Roy then gave evidence from Bhagavad Gita, Eighteenth Chapter, 54th verse, wherein the Lord says as follows: "When a person realizes himself as not different from the Supreme Absolute Truth by cultivation of knowledge, he becomes joyful and freed from all kinds of lamentation and material desires. At that time he perfects his Brahman realization by looking at everyone on the same spiritual level. This stage of Brahman realization can elevate one to the transcendental stage of devotional service."  

 Lord Chaitanya again rejected this proposal because in that stage of simply renouncing material results in Brahman realization there is no realization of the Spiritual World and activities. Although in the Brahman realization stage there is no material contamination, it is still on the mental plane, and therefore external. The pure living entity is not liberated unless he has the complete spiritual idea and is engaged in spiritual activity. When spiritual knowledge is not complete, people will hinder you in your attempt to vacate the mind of all material variegatedness. Therefore Lord Chaitanya rejected it.

 After rejection of this proposal, Ramananda Roy said that devotional service without any attempt at cultivation of knowledge or mental speculation is the highest stage of perfection. In this connection he gave evidence from Srimad Bhagwatam, Tenth Canto, Fourteenth Chapter, in which Lord Brahma says to the Supreme Personality of Godhead: He should begin his spiritual life in devotional service by receiving the information of the activities of the Lord from a realized devotee of the Lord.  When this was presented, the Lord at once said, "Yes, this is right." In this age there is no possibility of acquiring spiritual knowledge by renunciation, or by mixed devotional service, or by fruitive results in mixed devotional service, or by the culture of knowledge. Because the people are not so advanced, and in fact most of them are fallen, and there is no time to elevate them. The best thing, Lord Chaitanya prescribed to let them engaged in hearing about the activities of the Lord, as explained in the Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagwatam. Such messages should be received by aural reception from realized souls. By this principle a person may live in whatever condition he is in, and still make progress in spiritual advancement.

 Lord Chaitanya accepted but requested to go further in advanced devotional service. The highest stage of transcendental activities is always free from all material desires and fruitive activities, and speculative attempts at knowledge. Ramananda Roy could understand the motive of Lord Chaitanya, and therefore stated that attainment of pure love of Godhead is the highest perfectional stage. Even after millions and millions of births one cannot achieve a sense of devotional service. But if, somehow or other, one becomes desirous of achieving the stage of devotional service, the association of a pure devotee will help such a strong desire for serving the Lord to become prominent.

 Lord Chaitanya wanted to bring him up to this stage of developed love of Godhead. If love of Godhead becomes elevated to personal affinity, that is called Prema Bhakti. In the beginning there is no establishment of a particular relationship between the Supreme Lord and the devotee, but when this stage of Prema Bhakti develops further a relationship is manifested with the Supreme Lord in different transcendental flavors. The first stage is called servitude-to accept the Supreme Lord as the Master, and the devotee as the eternal servitor.

 When Lord Chaitanya accepted this process, Ramananda Roy described the relationship of the servitor and the Master. As cited in the Srimad Bhagwatam, Ninth Canto, Fifth Chapter, Durbasamuni was a great mystic Yogi and considered himself to be very elevated. Yet he envied Maharaj Amburish, who was known as the greatest devotee of the time. Durbasamani wanted to harass Maharaj Amburish, and as a result he met with great catastrophe, and Durbasamani was defeated by the Sudarsan Chakra of the Lord. The Yogi admitted his fault and said, "For pure devotees who are always engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, nothing is considered impossible to obtain, because they're engaged in the service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, hearing Whose very Name is sufficient for liberation."

 On hearing that statement of Ramananda Roy, the Lord requested him to go still further. Ramananda Roy said that when the relationship with Krishna is increased by a more affectionate tendency, then the mood of fearfulness, the consciousness of the extra-superiority of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, becomes diminished; and there is the development of a mood of faithfulness. And this faithfulness is called friendship. In this friendly relationship, there is a sense of equality between Lord Krishna and His friends. In this connection, Ramananda Roy quoted a nice verse from Srimad Bhagwatam, Tenth Canto, 12th Chapter, where Sukdeva Goswami describes Lord Krishna's lunch with His friends in the forest where they went to play with the cows. It is said there that the cowherds boys who went to play in the forest with Krishna enjoyed transcendental friendship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 Lord Chaitanya appreciated this statement by Ramananda Roy very much, but still He said, "You can advance further." At the request of Lord Chaitanya, Ramanada Roy stated that the relationship with Krishna as son and father, the relationship of parenthood, is a still higher transcendental position. In this connection, Ramananda Roy quoted a nice verse from Srimad Bhagwatam, Tenth canto, 8th chapter, where it is stated that the King inquired from Sukdeva Goswami as to the magnitude of righteous activities which had been performed by Yasoda, the mother of Krishna, for which the Supreme Personality of Godhead called her "mother," and sucked at her breast. And he quoted still another verse from Srimad Bhagwatam (Tenth Canto, 9th Chapter), in which it is stated that Yasoda, the wife of Nanda, a cowherd man, received mercy from the Supreme Personality of Godhead which is incomparable, even by the mercy which is received by Brahma, the first created living being, or Lord Shiva, or even the Goddess of Fortune, Lakshmi, who is always situated on the chest of Lord Vishnu.

 Lord Chaitanya asked Ramananda Roy to proceed further. Understanding the mind of Lord Chaitanya, Ramananda Roy immediately answered that the relationship of conjugal love with Krishna is the highest position. In other words, intimate relationship with Krishna develops from an ordinary conception, to the conception of Master and servant. And when it has become confidential, it develops into a friendly relationship, and when it is further developed, it is the relationship between parents and the children; and when it is developed to the highest point of complete love and affection, it is known as conjugal love with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this connection, Ramananda Roy quoted a nice stanza from the Srimad Bhagwatam, Tenth Canto, 47th Chapter, in which it is stated that the transcendental mode of ecstasy which was exhibited during the Rasa Dance of the Gopis with Krishna was never relishable even by the Goddess of Fortune, who is always situated on the chest of the Lord in the spiritual kingdom. A pure devotee who is always engaged in Krishna Consciousness can sacrifice everything for the service of the Lord. When one is freed from all material contamination, any one of the relationships with Krishna is relishable transcendentally.

 But in Chaitanya Charitamrita, the author has given a very nice practical example of this matter. He states that earth, water, fire, air, and ether are the five elements, and these five elements develop from the subtle form to the grosser form. For example, in the ether there is a characteristic which is called sound. But in the air, there is the characteristic of ether, sound, plus a sensation of touch. When one comes to the fire, there is the characteristic of ether plus the characteristic of air, plus the characteristic which is called form. So, in fire there are three characteristics; similarly, when we come to water, there are four characteristics-namely sound, ·touch, form and taste. When you go to earth, there are five characteristics, namely sound, touch, form, taste, and smell. If we analyze the different relationships with Lord Krishna and the devotee, we find that all the five characteristics of the devotional attitude are present in the relationship of conjugal love. Therefore, the relationship with Krishna in conjugal love can only be accepted as the highest perfectional stage of love of God.

 It is said that Lord Krishna, in relationship with His devotees, accepts all kinds of devotional service according to the aptitude of each particular devotee and Krishna also responds to such a devotee in a reciprocal way. For anyone who wants the relationship with Krishna of Master and servant, He plays the part of the perfect Master. For anyone who wants Krishna as his Son, in the parental relationship, Krishna plays the part of the perfect Son. Similarly, if a devotee wants to worship Krishna in conjugal love, Krishna plays the part of husband or paramour in perfection. But He has admitted that His loving relationship with the damsels of Vraja in conjugal love is the highest perfectional stage.

 In Srimad Bhagwatam, Tenth Canto, 32nd Chapter, Krishna addressed the Gopis and said, "My dear Gopis, your relationship with Me is completely transcendental, and in exchange for your love, it is not possible for Me to offer anything, even after many births. You have been able to give up all attachment for material enjoyment, and you have searched after Me. I am unable to repay your love; and therefore, be pleased with your own activities."

 The Gopis of Vrindaban do not like to see Krishna as the Husband of Rukmini, neither do they address Him as Rukminiraman. In Vrindaban, Krishna is addressed as Radha-Krishna, or Krishna the Property of Radharani. In the ordinary sense, although the Husband of Rukmini and Radha' s Krishna are on the same level, still in the Spiritual World the Names are different understandings of different aspects of this Transcendental Personality. If somebody equalized Rukminiraman and Radharaman and Narayan and any other Name of the Supreme Lord as all on the same level, there is the fault of overlapping tastes, which is technically called Rasabhasa. Although Sri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is Super excellence and beauty, still, when He is amongst the damsels of Vraja, He is known as Gopijanaballabh; then He becomes the highest perfectional stage for devotees.

 Lord Chaitanya accepted this statement of the highest realization of the Supreme Lord as conjugal lover. Still, He requested Ramananda Roy to advance further. It has been described that there is certainly a transcendental intimacy between the damsels of Vraja and Krishna, but out of all the Gopis, the relationship of Sri Radharani with Krishna in conjugal love is the most perfect stage. Anyone who wants to be elevated to such a transcendental stage of perfection should follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja as the assistant maid servant of such Gopis. When Krishna danced amongst all the Gopis, He thought that, "I am not giving any special attention to Radharani." So, because amongst the other Gopis, Radharani was not so much an object of special love, Krishna stole Her away from the area of the Rasa Dance, and thus exhibited His special favor for Her. In the Rasa Dance Krishna placed Himself between each two Gopis, but He was present especially with Radharani. The perfection of the Rasa Dance was considered to be complete on account of the presence of Radharani.

 This transcendental love between Radharani and Krishna was described by Ramananda  Roy. Lord Chaitanya admitted that, "I came to you for understanding about the transcendental loving affairs of Krishna and Radha, and I am very much satisfied that you have described it so nicely. I can understand now from your version that this is the highest loving state between Krishna and Radha."

 Hare Krishna.