Srila Prabhupada & George Harrison
(and the Shankars)
Bhaktivedanta Manor, August 27, 1973
Prabhupäda: ...big, big palace(?).
George Harrison: Yeah. Uhh, this is Laksmi Shankar, Viji Shankar, and Sooma Shankar...
Prabhupäda: I see.
George Harrison: ...and Dori.
Prabhupäda: (brief Hindi exchange with Shankars) So, you’re keeping all right, healthy?
George Harrison: Just about.
Prabhupäda:
ätmänaà sarvato rakñet
tato dharmaà tato dhanam
ätmänaà vikåti sati
tato kutaà tato dharmam
Atma means the body, mind or soul. Atma. All these can be designated asatma. Those who are in bodily concept of life, for them atma means this body. Those who are in mental concept of life – somebody they think the mind is the soul – so for them, atma means mind. And those who are actually in knowledge, the atma means the soul. In the çästra there says that either of these, ätmänaà sarvato rakñet, you must first take care of, of this atma. Thentato dharma: then you must take care of your religious principles. Ätmänaà sarvato rakñet tato dharmaà tato dhanam. Then you try to protect your money. (laughter) Because ätmänaà vikåti sati, if your atma is in disturbed condition, tato dharmaà tato dhanam, then where you keep your religion and money? So ätmänaà sarvato rakñet.
Çyämasundara: Çréla Prabhupäda?
Prabhupäda: What?
Çyämasundara: I’ve got I got a letter from Zaehner today...
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Çyämasundara: ...where he not only apologizes but he begs you to see him. (aside to George:) And that, that’s who we talked about last time, who wrote all those nasty things, that Kåñëa’s immoral and all.
George Harrison: No, what happened?
Çyämasundara: We were talking about it last time you were here.
Prabhupäda: Let us hear what his letter...
Çyämasundara: I’ll read it. (laughter) He said “Thank you for your letter of 28th July. You’ve put me in a rather embar...” This is a letter that Mukunda wrote to him. He’s addressing “Dear Mr. Grant.” “You’ve put me in a rather embarrassing position, since I have only just received a long letter from I think the President of your London center,” Satsvarüpa, “strongly criticizing me for what the Observer alleges. I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol…” Oh, I “ …what the Observer alleges I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol. He apparently thinks I am a narädhama, among other things,” (laughter) “and clearly a most undesirable person in every way. It is true that I quoted passages from the Upanisads and the Gétä which imply that the mukta is…, that the mukta regards good and evil…,” no, “disregards good and evil, and pointed out the dangers of this doctrine if it fell into the hands of people who have received no instruction. I also pointed out that this is equally true of the Bible, which is…, which was, of course, not reported in theObserver. In view of all this, I wonder if your master is interested in seeing me. I rather doubt whether we would have very much in common, since there would appear to be little common ground between one who describes himself as ‘His Divine Grace,’ who is in the direct disciplic line from Kåñëa, and one who, with the best will in the world, cannot but be bewildered by the proliferation of persons who make similar claims on behalf of themselves. However, if you still feel that a meeting would serve any useful purpose, please let me know.”
Prabhupäda: Hm.
Çyämasundara: “Yours sincerely, R. C. Zaehner.”
Prabhupäda: So if you can read the letter which Satsvarüpa has sent him, they…, they can hear.
Çyämasundara: Oh, I guess you want the letter that...
Prabhupäda: It is in response to that letter.
Çyämasundara: This is in response to this.
Devotee (2): Yeah.
George Harrison: Well what did he say, the person?
Çyämasundara: He, he accused Kåñëa of being immoral. (laughter)
George Harrison: On what grounds?
Çyämasundara: Because He was killing...
George Harrison: On the battlefield?
Çyämasundara: Yeah, and ’cause He didn’t regard evil and…, good and evil, that they were both the same.
Prabhupäda: Who says things like that?
Devotee (2): Exactly. And he says “amoral” – or neither immoral or moral, but without morality.
Çyämasundara: And it says, “Dear Professor Zaehner,” and Prabhupäda actually wrote the letter, but Satsvarüpa, his secretary, signed it. It says, “I am writing in response to your recent address to the World Congress of Faiths, which was attended by several of our members and which was subsequently reported in the Observer, 22nd July 1973, under the title ‘The Logic of Charles Manson.’ In your speech you have accused Kåñëa, the speaker of the Vedic text Bhagavad-gétä, as immoral. Exactly how you have tried to substantiate that Kåñëa is the teacher of an immoral and amoral dangerous doctrine is a matter which can be discussed another time. But I wish to simply point out to you that having accused Kåñëa, you have as such fallen to a position of being very strongly accused yourself by Lord Kåñëa Himself. As He has stated in theBhagavad-gétä…” (to devotee:) You want to read that?
Devotee (2): Yeah.
na mäà duñkåtino müòhäù
prapadyante narädhamäù
mäyayäpahåta-jïänä
äsuraà bhävam äçritäù
[Bg. 7.15]
Çyämasundara: “Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by... ”
Prabhupäda: He is actual (indistinct) the lowest of the mankind.
Çyämasundara: Narädhamäù, that’s what he…, that means “lowest of mankind.”
“ ‘…whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.’ In other words, Lord Kåñëa is stating that if one is in opposition to Him, he must fall into one of these four categories: either he is grossly foolish, like the ass or rascal person; or he is the lowest of mankind, without religion although acting as a civilized person; or he may have a good intelligence or academic standing, but his intelligence has been stolen away by illusion; or he is an outright demon bent on the destruction of mankind. So you are accused by this statement of the Bhagavad-gétä as belonging to one of these four categories of miscreants. Neither can Kåñëa’s charge against you be taken lightly. Kåñëa’s statements are supported by all theäcäryas, or saintly persons and spiritual masters of the Vedic philosophy. Going back hundreds and thousands of years, those who are the molders of the Hindu or Indian destiny, such as Madhva, Rämänuja, Viñëu Svämé, Nimbärka as well as Vyäsadeva, Bramhä, Närada and in the recent age Lord Caitanya and the disciplic succession up to our own spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, all accept Lord Kåñëa as the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose statements are taken as the highest authority. Even Çaìkaräcärya, the leader of the impersonalist school of Vedic thought, has accepted, näräyaëaù paro 'vyaktät: ‘Näräyaëa, Lord Kåñëa, is above this material manifestation.’ Whatever Kåñëa says is accepted as truth by virtually all the leaders of Vedic philosophy since time immemorial. So we are laymen, and we have to choose. We are faced with two accusations: yours against Lord Kåñëa as being immoral, and Lord Kåñëa’s accusation against you as a rascal” (laughter) “the lowest of mankind, whose intelligence is stolen and of the nature of a demon.”
Prabhupäda: We are placing ourselves laymen. That, whose accusation we shall accept – either Kåñëa’s or yours? That is our problem.
Çyämasundara: “As we have just explained, Kåñëa’s description of your miscreant position is supported by all the stalwart äcäryas without exception. Nor can we take the view that the above-named philosophers are sectarian in their support of Kåñëa as the Supreme Truth. You are taken as a great Sanskrit scholar, but apparently you have not noted the commentary on Bhagavad-gétäin Sanskrit by His Holiness Rämänuja Äcärya. At every verse Rämänuja has presented many quotes from the Upaniñads to support his favoring Kåñëa’s position as the very source of knowledge and liberation. So Kåñëa’s position is very solid among those who are the most reputable scholars. But who will agree with you and your accusation against Lord Kåñëa? The Vedic scriptureÇrémad-Bhägavatam clearly states that only men of a like nature to yours would join you in taking such an infamous position.”
Prabhupäda: Çva vid-varaha ustra. Read it.
Devotee (2):
çva-viò-varähoñöra-kharaiù
saàstutaù puruñaù paçuù
na yat-karëa-pathopeto
jätu näma gadägrajaù
[SB 2.3.19]
Çyämasundara: “ ‘Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Kåñëa, the deliverer from evils.’ In other words, although you have become a leader of the so-called learned society of men,” he’s a big professor at Oxford, “because you are opposed to glorifying Lord Kåñëa, your followers are not actually to the human standard” (laughter) “but are no better than the above-named animals. According to the Bhägavatam, if one is essentially godless and opposed to acknowledging the supremacy of the Supreme Lord Kåñëa, then he may be big or great in the world, his greatness is no more than the greatness of a big animal who is looked up to by smaller animals. By the estimation of scriptures and äcäryas, such a so-called big man is never given a place in the category of man on account of his atheistic temperament. So a sane man seeking truth will certainly be inclined to follow the standard accepted version of the greatest philosophers and true humanitarians in the history of the science of God. But who will follow you in your accusation against Lord Kåñëa? It is unfortunate that you have assumed a conversant authoritative attitude towards the Vedic scriptures. To have actual knowledge of Kåñëa and the Bhagavad-gétä is not such an easy thing. Unfortunately, many people have no doubt assumed that you know all about Kåñëa and the Bhagavad-gétä because of your holding a Professorship in Eastern Religion at Oxford University and because you have published a number of books, but that is not the criteria for understanding Kåñëa. As Lord Kåñëa states in the Bhagavad-gétä:”
Devotee (2):
manuñyäëäà sahasreñu
kaçcid yatati siddhaye
yatatäm api siddhänäà
kaçcin mäà vetti tattvataù
[Bg. 7.3]
Çyämasundara: “ ‘Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.’ It is not that one can be a cigarette smoker and liquor drinker and habituated to common vices and yet speak something about Kåñëa. Even among those who are above all these things, who are siddhas, perfect souls, hardly one of such siddhas can understand Kåñëa. So because you are not even trying to become a siddha, we have to conclude by honest reason that your statements about Lord Kåñëa and Bhagavad-gétä have no value. Your version that Kåñëa is acting immorally is not true. Arjuna, the original disciple ofBhagavad-gétä, who heard it directly and understood it from Kåñëa Himself, spoke as follows:”
Devotee (2):
paraà brahma paraà dhäma
pavitraà paramaà bhavän
[Bg. 10.12]
Çyämasundara: “ ‘Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person.’ Here the word pavitraà means ‘the purest.’ So Arjuna is addressing Kåñëa as the purest, the Supreme Pure, and this is your rascaldom, that you are accusing the most pure as immoral. In the Bhägavatam it is described that when the witch Pütanä came to Kåñëa, she tried to kill Him during His childhood pastimes by smearing her breast with poison and offering it to baby Kåñëa to suck. Kåñëa not only sucked her breast but sucked out her life air, and thus the demon gave up her life. But Kåñëa is so moral that although Pütanä came to kill Him, because He accepted her as a mother and took milk from her breast, Kåñëa awarded her liberation after death and gave her the same exalted place as His own loving mother, Yaçodä. Also, on the Battlefield of Kurukñetra, where the Bhagavad-gétä was spoken, those who came to fight with Kåñëa and were killed by Him were granted eternal liberation in the spiritual sky. Because He is absolute, whatever Kåñëa does is the highest morality and works factually for everyone’s ultimate happiness and well-being. Kåñëa’s pastimes are hardly understandable to the nondevotee, that these are the authorized descriptions of the Vedic literature. The people in general should be warned of your position so that you will not mislead them by misinterpretation. They should not be baffled by your outward appearance as a great scholar. If we consult those who are truly authorities, the great äcäryas, we understand your position is very unfavorable and can only be relieved by your attempting to publicly rectify accusations so foolishly made against the name and words of Lord Kåñëa and Bhagavad-gétä. Yours sincerely, Satsvarüpa.” Also, that Alistair Hardy wrote a nice letter.
Prabhupäda: Hmm. Yes.
Çyämasundara: Today.
George Harrison: Who is Alistair Hardy?
Devotee (2): He’s (indistinct) a religious experience researcher.
Çyämasundara: He’s just saying that he’d like to come again sometime.
Prabhupäda: I shall invite him again. Lord Brockway, he also came. Fenner Brockway.
Çyämasundara: Yeah.
Devotee (3): I’ll be leaving now.
Prabhupäda: He, and also (indistinct).
Devotee (2): House of Lords, House of Lords.
Prabhupäda: Now I propose to start a society, I will explain to you. Çyämasundara. (clears throat) The Society of the Sinless Men. How do you like this idea?
George Harrison: Good idea, but mightn’t get many members. (laughter)
Çyämasundara: Yeah, but everyone will say, “Oh, I am sinless.” (laughter) “I’ll join.” Otherwise if we go to them and they’ll have to say, “Oh, then I am a sinner.”
Prabhupäda: Yesterday, Doctor Sumehta, he came.
Çyämasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupäda: Another, John…?
Çyämasundara: Papworth.
Prabhupäda: Papworth. So we have three our stock. So (chuckling) they agreed half, but not fully, that what is sinful life. And unless people become sinless, it is not possible to understand what is God. That’s a fact. Because as we have stated,
paraà brahma paraà dhäma
pavitraà paramaà bhavän
[Bg. 10.12]
So Kåñëa, God, He is pavitraà paramaà, the Supreme Pure. So without becoming pure, nobody can understand what is the nature of God. Just like without becoming fire, you cannot enter into fire. That is also confirmed in theBhagavad-gétä:
yeñäà tv anta-gataà päpaà
janänäà puëya-karmaëäm
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktä
bhajante mäà dåòha-vratäù
[Bg. 7.28]
So people are indulging in sinful activity, so in that position it is not possible to understand God. So our, this Kåñëa consciousness movement, is purifying. Caitanya Mahäprabhu says,
ceto-darpaëa-märjanaà bhava-mahä-dävägni-nirväpaëaà
çreyaù-kairava-candrikä-vitaraëaà vidyä-vadhü-jévanam
änandämbudhi-vardhanaà prati-padaà pürëämåtäsvädanaà
sarvätma-snapanaà paraà vijayate çré-kåñëa-saìkértanam
[Cc. Antya 20.12]
So our movement is… It is very difficult to find out in this day actually a sinless man; therefore we are giving chance of hearing this mahä-mantra,
harer näma harer näma
harer nämaiva kevalam
[Cc. Ädi 17.21]
So if one is given this chance, as we are actually experiencing… When I started this movement in 1966 I simply, you knowing about that, that Tompkins Square? I was simply chanting Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, that’s all, for 3 hours, from two ’til five. And the boys and girls, they are coming, dancing. In this way gradually they came. So Caitanya Mahäprabhu said ceto-darpana-marjanam:this process, simply by hearing Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra, the heart will be cleansed, ceto-darpaëa-märjanaà. Darpaëa. Darpaëa means “mirror.” Just like if you want to see your face, you have a clear mirror, you can see exactly your face. Similarly when our, this cetah, which is full of dirty things, if it is polished, if it is cleansed, then we can see our real face, what I am. That is, Caitanya Mahäprabhu says, ceto-darpaëa-märjanaà. And as soon as one understands what he is, then immediately his all problems are solved.
Ceto-darpaëa-märjanaà bhava-mahä-dävägni-nirväpaëaà. We are suffering just like in the blazing forest fire. When there is fire in the forest all the animals become perturbed, disturbed, especially the snakes. Other animals, they have got legs, they can jump over. But the snakes, they have to crawl. So when there is fire in the forest, the dry foliage that catch fire, so these snakes, they die first. They cannot jump; they have to crawl. And the snake means envious. The snake business is envious. Without any fault it will bite, and the man will die. Envious. Therefore Cäëakya Paëòita has said,
sarpaù krüraù khalaù krüraù
sarpät krürataraù khalaù
mantrauñadhi-vaçaù sarpaù
khalaù kena niväryate
[Néti Çästra]
That there are two jealous, envious beings: one is the snake and another is the…, a man envious. So the envious man is more dangerous than the snake. Why? That you can bring under control the snake by herbs and mantra. Still in India there are experts who can by mantra can catch snake, venomous snake. There is a heart,(?) so it can be under, brought under control. But the envious man cannot be, I mean, brought under control; therefore he is more dangerous. So we are living in such world. In another place, Prahläda Mahäräja has said that when his father was killed, Hiraëyakaçipu, he requested Lord Nåsiàhadeva that “Now kindly mitigate Your anger, because nobody is sorry for killing my father. That he was just like a snake and scorpion.” So sädhur api, (aside: bring me verse) that even sädhu, they also take pleasure when a snake or scorpion is killed. A sädhu, modeta, våçcika-sarpa-hatyä [SB 7.9.14]. Asädhu does not want killing of any living entity, but when a scorpion or a snake is killed, even one sädhu also takes pleasure, “Yes, it is right.” They are so dangerous.
So the whole world is now filled with krüraù, sarpät krürataraù khalaù,envious. Whole world is surcharged with enviousness. Nation to nation, person to person, there is competition. So how they can be happy? Therefore Kåñëa…, Caitanya Mahäprabhu suggests that “Let them chant Hare Kåñëamahä-mantra, then this blazing forest fire will be extinguished.” Ceto-darpaëa-märjanaà bhava-mahä-dävägni-nirväpaëaà. Then çreyaù-kairava-candrikä-vitaraëaà: “That actual life of knowledge will begin.” And at last He says,paraà vijayate çré-kåñëa-saìkértanam. And in the Bhägavatam so it is confirmed,
kértanäd eva kåñëasya
mukta-saìgaù paraà vrajet
[SB 12.3.51]
Simply by chanting.
So those who are actually thinking of the welfare of the whole human society, they should combinedly try how to spread this Kåñëa consciousness movement, chanting of Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra. People may simply have some chance to hear. Then gradually everything will become nice. So this is our mission. We are trying to give chance people to hear harer näma. Çravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù. It is not that as so many, this pantheist or the so-called Mäyävädés, they say that “You can chant any name. You can…” No. That is not. Çästra says, çravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù, or Viñëu. Harer näma: the name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not anyone’s, everyone’s name. No. So that is also another enviousness: “Why Kåñëa’s näma should be chanted? We have got our own God.” So envious, even to Kåñëa. These are the difficulties. Still, it is our duty, as it is described in the çästras, to give everyone the chance of hearing this holy name of the Lord: Hare Kåñëa, Hare Kåñëa, Kåñëa Kåñëa, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare. So begin some kåñëa-saìkértana. So we chant? Yes? Begin saìkértana.(Çréla Prabhupäda begins clapping; chanting lasts about 8 minutes, concluding with Prabhupäda chanting prema dhvani.) Thank you very much. (devotees offer obeisances) So prasädam is ready?
Devotee (4): (indistinct)
Devotee (2): It’s all cooked.
Devotee (4): Downstairs?
Devotee (2): It should be in the kitchen and maybe keeping warm in the oven, the small stove. You know those two stoves? The white stove in the oven.
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