George Harrison & Srila Prabhupada
Bhaktivedanta Manor, August 22, 1973
Prabhupäda: This prasädam for your wife. You take it.
George: Okay. Jaya.
Revaténandana: In another five years what?
George: But in another five... It's like a snowball, the effect, you know. It's getting bigger all the time. And in the next five years I'm sure it's going to double. Just more. I mean it's going to have done more in five years than it has in the last, probably two hundred years.
Prabhupäda: One Japanese gentleman has predicted.
Revaténandana: You mean the growth in spiritual...
George: The growth in every way, you know. And at that point there's going to be...
Revaténandana: It's almost like a crucial time. Because at the same time the spiritual side is ready to grow, beginning to grow, the material side is becoming so degraded at the same time. It is crucial time, you see. If you don't know what to do and do it purely now, everything will fall down. If you do it right, everything will change and increase. Because you go down to Picadilly or you go down to Sunset Strip, you'll see it's going to hell. Hellish.
Prabhupäda: The modern science is based on matter. They are of opinion that life has come from matter. It is a wrong theory. Matter has come from life. This is right theory. So they are just taking the opposite and going wrong way.
George: But what I was saying was not really related to like externally in the world, like Sunset Strip and all that. I mean just the ISKCON, the Kåñëa consciousness movement is getting so big, very big, and there's going to be a point where, you know, it's going to need such fantastic management. It's going to be like high level business management in a way.
Prabhupäda: Yes. So that it may not deteriorate.
George: So that it's just going to keep... If you can hold on to what it is you've got now, you know, rather...
Revaténandana: It takes that and it takes purity. The spiritual practice that makes ISKCON a real spiritual movement has got to go on nicely. And as it goes on, then the devotees, everybody is developing to take the practical responsibilities.
George: But at the moment, you see, you have Prabhupäda there who everybody, you know, he's like the figurehead and the spearhead and the one who everybody can draw their energy from. I mean, you know, sooner or later everybody's going to have to be out there on their own, doing, you know, carrying out what everybody's learned. And at that time...
Çyämasundara: We'll always rely on our spiritual master, even if he's not here with us. We'll still take the strength from him.
George: Hm. I realize.(?)
Revaténandana: Prabhupäda writes once in his Bhägavatam, he says, "One has to fly the airplane in the outer space. And once he is there nobody can fly it for him." He says, "While he is on the ground he can take instruction from an able teacher but ultimately he has to fly the plane himself." So Prabhupäda is teaching us how to fly. (Laughs)
Prabhupäda: No, I have selected twelve heads all over the world. I am telling them. So by Kåñëa's grace if they remain strictly to the spiritual principles, they'll get strength. Yasya prasädäd bhagavat-prasädo yasyäprasädän na gatiù kuto ’pi. Hm? Can you explain this?
Revaténandana: By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted, blessed, by the mercy of Kåñëa. And without the grace of the spiritual master nobody can make any advancement.
Prabhupäda:
Yasya prasädäd bhagavat-prasädo
yasya deve parä bhaktir
yathä deve tathä gurau
tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù
prakäçante mahätmanaù
[ÇU 6.23]
This is the Vedic injunction, that one should have full faith in Kåñëa and the spiritual master. Then everything will be revealed. That is revelation. Nobody can understand spiritual life simply by academic study. The more we become sincere and stick to the spiritual principle, it will be revealed. Prakäçante. Just like sun. Now it is darkness. By your scientific method you cannot get the sun to rise now. The sun will rise automatically in due course. Similarly, spiritual method is we have to work for the mercy of Kåñëa. Therefore this service, Kåñëa is pleased by service. Nobody can compete with Kåñëa. He is not in want of money or anything. He is complete, pürëaà. But He becomes very much pleased by one's service. That is bhakti. Bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti yävän yaç cäsmi tattvataù. Find out this. Bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti yävän yaç cäsmi tattvataù. It is very important verse.
George: How many temples are there now? Radha-Kåñëa temples?
Çyämasundara: Over a hundred. More than a hundred.
George: So there's only a couple to go. How many can you handle? How many temples can you handle?
Çyämasundara: Each one is individual. We don't have any world wide organization, centralized. So that it makes... We can have any number because they are their own... Management is self-contained. But the philosophy unites us all.
George: You don't have to keep, like, shift money or funds or things from one place to another.
Prabhupäda: No, no. They collect locally and spend. Buy our books.
Çyämasundara: Philosophy and the principles. So actually you go from here to any other temple, they are all the same. People are amazed. They say, "Wow, what a centralized organization you must have." But the only center is Kåñëa. (Laughs)
Prabhupäda: Read that verse. Bhaktyä mäm abhi... It is eighteenth chapter I think.
Çyämasundara: I just found it.
Prabhupäda: Bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti yävän yaç cäsmi tattvataù. Tato mäà tattvato jïätvä
Pradyumna: Here it is.
bhaktyä mäm abhijänäti
yävän yaç cäsmi tattvataù
tato mäà tattvato jïätvä
viçate tad-anantaram
[Bg. 18.55]
Translation: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupäda: Hm. Purport?
Pradyumna: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kåñëa, and His plenary portions cannot be understood by mental speculation nor by the non-devotees. If anyone wants to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has to take to pure devotional service under the guidance of a pure devotee. Otherwise the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead will always be hidden. It is already stated, nähaà prakäçaù, that He is not revealed to everyone. Everyone cannot understand God simply by erudite scholarship or mental speculation. Only one who is actually engaged in Kåñëa consciousness and devotional service can understand what Kåñëa is. University degrees are not helpful. One who is fully conversant with the Kåñëa science becomes eligible to enter into the spiritual kingdom, the abode of Kåñëa. Becomingbrahman does not mean that one loses his identity. Devotional service is there. And as long as devotional service exists there must be God, the devotee, and the process of devotional service. Such knowledge is never vanquished, even after liberation. Liberation involves getting free from the concept of material life. In spiritual life the same distinction is there, the same individuality is there but in pure Kåñëa consciousness. One should not misunderstand that the word viçate, 'enters into me' supports the monist theory that one becomes homogeneous with the impersonal brahman. No. Viçate means that one can enter into the abode of the Supreme Lord in his individuality to engage in His association and render service unto Him. For instance a green bird enters a green tree not to become one with the tree but to enjoy the fruits of the tree. Impersonalists generally give the example of a river flowing into the ocean and merging. This may be a source of happiness for the impersonalist but the personalist keeps his personal individuality like an aquatic in the ocean. We find so many living entities within the ocean if we go deep. Surface acquaintance with the ocean is not sufficient. One must have complete knowledge of the aquatics living in the ocean depths. Because of his pure devotional service a devotee can understand the transcendental qualities and the opulences of the Supreme Lord in truth. As it is stated in the 11th Chapter, only by devotional service can one understand. The same is confirmed here. One can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by devotional service and enter into His kingdom. After attainment of the brahma-bhütastage of freedom from material conceptions, devotional service begins by one's hearing about the Lord. When one hears about the Supreme Lord, automatically the brahma-bhüta stage develops and the material contamination, greediness and lust for sense enjoyment disappears. As lust and desires disappear from the heart of the devotee he becomes more attached to the service of the Lord and by such attachment he becomes free from material contamination. In that stage of life he can understand the Supreme Lord. This is the statement of Çrémad-Bhägavatam also. So after liberation the process of bhakti or transcendental service continues. The Vedänta-sütra confirms this: äpräyaëät taträpi hi dåñöam. This means that after liberation the process of devotional service continues. In the Çrémad-Bhägavatam real devotional service is defined as the reinstatement of the living entity in his own identity."
Prabhupäda: Svarüpeëa vyavasthitiù. The word is svarüpeëa vyavasthitiù. Is there?
Pradyumna: Ah, not [indidtinct]
Prabhupäda: Svarüpeëa. Muktir hitvä anyathä rüpam svarüpeëa vyavasthitiù. Mukti, liberation means being freed from other engagement when he is situated in his own constitutional position. That is mukti. That is mukti. That is the definition given in the Bhägavata. Muktir hitvä anyathä. In the material world they are working differently from their constitutional position. So when they stop this work differently and is again reinstated in his original consciousness that is Kåñëa consciousness and that is mukti, that is liberation. Then? Finish it.
Pradyumna: “The constitutional position is already explained. Every living entity is the part and parcel fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord. Therefore his constitutional position is to serve. After liberation this service is never stopped. Actual liberation is getting free from misconceptions of life.”
Prabhupäda: Yes. Now at the present moment generally people in bodily concept. I am this body. I am American. I am Englishman. I am brähmaëa. I am kñatriya. I am this. I am that. So this is called bondage. When he will understand that I am neither Englishman nor American nor Indian. I am eternal servant of Kåñëa. That is mukti. That is mukti. This very consciousness ismukti. Sa guëän samatétyaitän
brahma-bhüyäya kalpate. Find out this verse.
mäà ca yo ’vyabhicäreëa
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa guëän samatétyaitän
brahma-bhüyäya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
Read it.
Pradyumna: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."
Prabhupäda: Yes. Immediately he becomes brahma-bhüta. One who is simply engaged in Kåñëa's service, he is liberated. That is liberation. So a devotee hasn't got to hanker after liberation. Because without liberation nobody can become devotee. Just like a man is on the bench of the high court. It means that he has already passed the law examination. Otherwise how he is situated on the bench? Similarly a devotee means he is already liberated. He is not living in the material world. He is living in the spiritual world. Therefore there is one verse, a sädhu, a devotee, jéva vä mära vä. Either you live or die, you have no loss. Living also you are serving Kåñëa and after death you will serve Kåñëa. Jéva vä mära vä. So this bhakti, bhakti-yoga means it is for liberated person. That is confirmed in Bhagavad-gétä. sa guëän samatétyaitän. Liberation means to transcend the effects of the three material qualities: sattva-guëa, rajo-guëa and tamo-guëa. So it is clearly stated, sa guëän samatétyaitän. Etän is plural number. All these guëas, qualities, he transcends. Therefore he is liberated. Those who are not liberated, they are conducted by these three qualities. The three qualities, insattva-guëa, brahmana. In rajo-guëa, kñatriya. In mixed, vaiçya. In tamo-guëa, çüdra. So, but a devotee is not grouped. He is transcendental to all these brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, çüdra. A devotee does not depend on this material division of society. He is above that.
Çyämasundara: So when a devotee is even working in the ordinary world he is still, that is still the spiritual world for him?
Prabhupäda: Yes, because he is working for Kåñëa. That's all. He's in spiritual world. He's with Kåñëa. Associating with Kåñëa. He is always remembering Kåñëa. That means he is Kåñëa conscious man.
Mukunda: There's a saying in the Christian literature, "One should be in the world but not of it." That a person should live in the world but is not of the world, if he is advanced spiritually.
Prabhupäda: He is not out of it.
Mukunda: He is living in the world but he is not of it. He is not part of it.
Prabhupäda: Oh yes. He is not of it. Yes, that's it. Just like we are living in Vaikuëöha, here in this house.
Revaténandana: It's a fact. It doesn't matter what you are doing. You're cooking, you're washing the floor, everything you are doing...
Prabhupäda: The house is... Whoever will come in this house, he will immediately remember Kåñëa. Therefore it is Vaikuëöha. That Sikñämåta,Upadeçam... Vaikuëöhäj janito varä madhu-puré. Vaikuëöhäj janito varä madhu-puré. So it is a very nice philosophy. First class philosophy. Let people try to understand. Give them chance. Let us give them service. Kåñëa will be pleased because Kåñëa comes, incarnates, to teach this philosophy. So anyone does for Kåñëa, he is very favorite. That is also stated.
na ca tasmän manuñyeñu
kaçcin me priya-kåttamaù
ya idaà paramaà guhyaà
mad-bhakteñv abhidhäsyati
[Bg. 18.69]
Yes. Just read.
Pradyumna: Na ca tasmän manuñyeñu?
Prabhupäda: Kaçcin me priya-kåttamaù.
Pradyumna:
bhavitä na ca me tasmäd
anyaù priyataro bhuvi.
"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."
Prabhupäda: Who is preaching this cult. That is... Kåñëa says, "Oh, no, no one is dearer than he." Just explain it. Purport is there? Purport?
Pradyumna: No, but then the verse before that, ya idaà paramaà guhyaà?
Prabhupäda: Ah, mad-bhakteñv abhidhäsyati.
(audio ends)
Pradyumna:
bhaktià mayi paräà kåtvä
mäm evaiñyaty asaàçayaù.
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Pradyumna: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed and at the end he will come back to Me."
Prabhupäda: Yes.
Revaténandana: Once Prabhupäda said anybody who will listen is a devotee. If you listen and you just tell them, you are preaching to the devotees and you are most dear servant of Kåñëa.
Prabhupäda: We have to make little arrangement that people will be attracted to come and hear us. That's all. He hasn't got to do anything. Let him please come, sit down here and take prasädam and go home. He will become devotee. It is so nice. Sravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù. Tan manyavitam tamam, Prahläda Mahäräja said. And Caitanya Mahäprabhu also, when Rämänanda Räya was speaking, you will find this. You have got that Teachings of Lord Caitanya? Yes, you will find when He was talking with Rämänanda Räya. So he gave so many programs for people's benefit. Caitanya Mahäprabhu said,éhä haya bhaja. It is not possible, no. You speak something better. You speak something. So when he spoke,
sthäne sthitäù çruti-gatäà tanu-väì-manobhir
ye präyaço ’jita jito ’py asi tais tri-lokyäm.
[Madhya 8.67]
This is verse from... When this verse was recited, immediately Caitanya Mahäprabhu said iha, "Yes, this is nice." So what is that? That let them stay in their position. It doesn't matter. Simply give them chance that they may hear from realized person. Sthäne sthitäù, let him keep his position. There is no use of changing his position. Sthäne sthitäù, means in his position. Çruti-gatäà tanu-väì-manobhir, without personally endeavoring, let him hear from the realized soul. As soon as this statement was given by Rämänanda Räya, immediately Caitanya Maha... "Yes, yes, this is nice. This is nice." He accepted. "This is nice." So people should be, in this age, simply they should be given little chance to come in our place and sit down and hear and give himprasädam. Then gradually become liberated. He hasn't got to do anything. Simply he has to lend his ear. That's all. And tongue also.
Revaténandana: There's... In London there's a middle-aged Jewish man. He used to walk by the temple every night on his way home. As he was going home, every night he'd walk by the temple and there would be aratik going on. He began to like the sound of the bells. So he came in and for three, four years now he's been coming at least two or three nights if not every night. And he sits, he chants a little and he listens to the lecture. He likes the lectures. I talked to him one night. He said, "You know," he said, "I never cared much for religion," he says, "but I'm addicted to this place. I have to come here now. If I don't come I don't feel good any more. I come here every night." (laughter) He's just a man, but...
Prabhupäda: I like, I like. That's... Yes.
Çyämasundara: If the world becomes populated by a certain number of liberated persons then everything will change. Everything will change.
Prabhupäda: Ekaç candras tamo hanti na ca taraù sahasrasaù. If there is one moon, that is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Ekaç candras tamo hanti na ca taraù sahasrasaù. One person enlightened is sufficient to give light. There is no need of glow worms. (Laughs) Glow worms can be important only in darkness. But when there is sunshine it has no value. So George has to go or let him stay this night?
George: No, I must go.
Prabhupäda: I must go?
George: But I'll be back very quickly.
Prabhupäda: All right. (Laughs) So you have to go forty miles?
George: Pardon?
Prabhupäda: Forty miles from here?
George: It's about 35, 40. It's about 40 or 50 minutes drive.
Prabhupäda: That's all right.
Çyämasundara: Part of it is motorway.
Revaténandana: It' s not so bad this time of night. There's no traffic.
Prabhupäda: Yes, it is not congested. So you are going alone or somebody is going with you?
George: I go alone. Well... (Laughter) A little bit of you will be with me.
Revaténandana: Kåñëa is sitting in your heart.
Prabhupäda: Hare Kåñëa. Jaya.
(Devotees offer obeisances)
George: Hare Kåñëa.
Prabhupäda: My blessings to your wife. Give this to her. Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Kåñëa.
George: Thank you. I'll see you very soon.
Prabhupäda: Thank you. Jaya.
Revaténandana: All glories to Prabhupäda.
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