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Understanding free will and the jiva's right to choose even in their ''original home'' of Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana

The living entities falling down to the material world - best explanation of all. The living entities "fall down into this material world" from Vaikuntha and NOT the Impersonal Brahman.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness''.

An in depth explanation worth reading.

The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.”

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire.

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?” Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”. End of quote

Question - Is there a place in the Spiritual World from where we can never fall down from?

Answer - It is not based on a "place you can never fall down from" that will keep you in Vaikuntha, it does not work that way because it is based on ‘’your choice’’ and nothing else. If you were forced to stay there then how can there be love?

Remaining in Vaikuntha "eternally" is based on the conscious awareness of what the devotee wants as a unique selfless individual "loving" personal servant of the Lord.

Even in such selfless emotions of loving devotion, the jivatma NEVER loses that unique ability of free will and self expression where one is "personally" always aware they are choosing how to selflessly serve Krishna or the servants of the servants of Krishna.

The fact that one does not fall from God's personal Kingdom is your responsibility, not Gods, it is your choice, it is your free will to choose and nobody else including Krishna.

The fact is 90% of all living entities do not fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana because they "choose not to".

That "choice" is always with the marginal living entities or jiva.

How is this so?

The jivatma soul or marginal living entity has 78% of Krishna's quantities which puts them in the realm of having "a sense of independence, identity, personality, individuality and the ability to choose.

This means the jivatma has the ability to agree or not agree even with Krishna.

The sense of individuality allows the jivatma the right to choose Krishna or choose to be separate from Krishna.

Remember Maya and the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha so that is unknown to the jivatma.

However, "free will, individuality, having independence, experiencing a unique sense of individual self worth and the ability to express all these qualities DOES exist in the makeup of the jivatma in Vaikuntha.

And if all those abilities are taken away, then we lose the ability to give and accept love, we become no better than a stone or mindless robot.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”. Conversation in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

No one can force you to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice must "always" be the jivatmas (our choice).

For love to truly exist with the jiva-tattva (jivatma) we MUST have the the right to choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime.

And the fact is a small minority do choose to leave, regardless of how some have interpreted past Sages and Acharyas.

The fact is to say those who enter Vaikuntha will "never ever again fall down" IS true - ‘’for those who choose NOT to fall down".

In other words, if the jiva wants to leave they certainly can.

To make a blanket comment that "not even the leaves fall and leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana" seems to not take into consideration the free will of the jiva tattva.

These comments from past Sages and Acharyas that the jiva never falls down once in Vaikuntha may have been said for many reasons, to give faith among aspiring devotees and neophytes to encourage them to understand that their constitutional position IS to NEVER ‘’choose’’ to leave Vaikuntha and NEVER ‘’desire’’ to enter the material world once they are in or returned to Vaikuntha.

However to come to the material world is ultimately the jiva tattva's choice and Krishna does not interfere even though Krishna has promised there is no return to the material creation.

The fact is there is if the jiva tattva wants to return, this is Prabhupada's point here -

Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote

For those who believe past Acharyas and sages meant that ''no one can ever fall down'' from Vaikuntha meant to address all souls in Vaikuntha, have not understood the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and it is only a small minority of ONLY jiva tattva souls who do chose to leave.

They have NOT understood there are many different inhabitants of Vrindavana who never fall down by choice such as the Sakti Vishnu tattvas who are expansions of Krishna, they never fall down because they ARE simultaneously eternal associates and Krishna experiencing Himself in unlimited extended ways.

So for them, choice does not exist. And for over 90% of jiva tattva souls who do have the ability to choose, they also never fall down because they NEVER "choose" to fall down.

Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .” End of quote

However, there will always be a very small minority of only the jiva tattvas (not the Sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva "direct expansions"of Krishna) who misuse their ability to "choose" and leave if they desire.

Free will is eternal even in Goloka and in fact without our ‘sovereignty as a living being’ to either forget or remember Krishna, then we would not have any individuality, no independent personality and no ability to love, we would be mindless ''yes'' drones like machines in a factory.

Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote

Krishna has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one.

Technically we are all Sakti tattva however there are different categories, we are the jiva tattva living entities known as the the ''marginal energy'' while others are Sakti tattvas and part of the ''internal potency or energy''.

The Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities are ''the eternal inhabitants of Vrindavana who can never fall down or choose to forget Krishna because THEY are direct expansions of Krishna Himself and part of His internal energies or potency of unlimited expansions and associates.

For example the Pancha Tattva are a combination of Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities with only one being jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, and Śrīvāsādi. Śrīvāsādi means jīva-tattva. The jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, viṣṇu-tattva, these are all tattvas. So Pañca-tattva. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is the supreme tattva, Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. We are worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. So Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa combined''.Lecture on CC Adi-lila 7.5 -- Mayapur, March 7, 1974 End of quote

Sakti tattva is not exactly Vishnu Tattva even though Sakti tattva is also called Sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of Sakti-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - ''There are viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth, jīva-tattva is part and parcel, and śakti-tattva is the energy of God''. Lecture on SB 1.5.15 -- New Vrindaban, June 19, 1969

Sakti tattva the energy of Krishna are eternally occupied with their service to the Lord, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please Krishna or Vishnu as they are indirect and direct expansions of Godhead.

Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are made up of many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas such as gopis, gopas and many, many others, there is also jiva tattvas (part and parcels) playing many roles in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well, just like the Sakti Vishnu tattvas are.

In Goloka Vrindavana no one knows who is who, who is jiva tattva, who is sakti tattva or who is jiva tattva, they do not even know this little boy Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the cause of all causes.

As already explained, Sakti Vishnu tattvas can never fall down. Also the jiva tattvas can NEVER become Sakti tattvas or Vishnu tattvas.

And jiva tattvas can never lose their seperate individual independence from Krishna even though technically all living entities are Sakti tattva expansions of Krishna that are fully dependent on Krishna like the sun rays are expansions that emanate from the Sun.

Even though this is the case of being part and parcel of the Lord, the jivatma or jiva tattva still has "their own" sense of being a separate independent thinking individual from Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - ''The words bṛhate namas te have been explained by Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura: bṛhate śrī-kṛṣṇāya.

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Kṛṣṇa the maintainer of all and cause of all causes.

We are "separate and none separate" from Krishna simultaneously.

There are many tattvas, such as viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva, but above everything is the viṣṇu-tattva, which is all-pervading.

This all-pervading feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explained in Bhagavad-gītā (10.42), wherein the Lord says:

athavā bahunaitena

kiṁ jñātena tavārjuna

viṣṭabhyāham idaṁ kṛtsnam

ekāṁśena sthito jagat

"But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe."

Thus Kṛṣṇa says that the entire material world is maintained by His partial representation as Paramātmā. The Lord enters every universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and then expands Himself as Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu to enter the hearts of all living entities and even enter the atoms.

Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Bs. 5.35). Every universe is full of atoms, and the Lord is not only within the universe but also within the atoms. Thus within every atom the Supreme Lord exists in His Viṣṇu feature as Paramātmā, but all the viṣṇu-tattvas emanate from Kṛṣṇa.

As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.2), aham ādir hi devānām: Kṛṣṇa is the ādi, or beginning, of the devas of this material world—Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara. Therefore He is described here as bhagavate bṛhate. End of quote

So there are differences between different energies or expansions of the Lord. We the jiva tattva (jivatmas) are also expansions, the jiva tattvas have minute independence and "a sense of individual self that thinks separately from Krishna as a unique individual" and are called the ''marginal energy'' or jivatma.

The jivatma (jiva tattva) is different from direct expansion like the Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas but both can be gopis, cowherd boys in Krishna lila.

Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana also have so many expansions of Krishna that it is mind boggling.

The jiva tattva can play the role of a gopa or gopi like a Sakti tattva and Vishnun tattva can but they can NEVER be Sakti Vishnu tattva who is Krishna Himself expanded as multiple personalities.

We (jiva tattva) can also choose, if we desire, play the roles Sakti vishnu tattvas also play however, we ALWAYS remain jiva tattva.

The jiva tattvas, unlike Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas, can 'choose' to forget Krishna and enter the mahat tattva or material creation of Maha Vishnu as nitya baddha and think they are an independent god.

Vishnu tattvas and Sakti tattvas do not do that because they are direct expansion of Krishna and only carry out the will of God.

Our eternal constitution position and eternal spiritual body is already there in Vaikuntha waiting for us to wake up from this material dream and return back home back to Godhead.

Just like Jaya and Vijaya's eternal possition as gatekeepers of Vaikuntha is always there waiting for their return from falling down into the material creation.

In Vaikuntha there is no concept of past and future time, only the ''individual awareness" of the "eternal presence'' of Krishna and being a dependent unique person and sense of the "self" that eternally exists there in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

This is how we know all the universe is not ''all'' one with an all pervading consciousness that plays out different roles while contained in different vessels, except for Krishna and His unlimited expansions, we are all individual jiva tattvas.

Therefore we never lose our independence and sense of self as an individual identity and being a "person"

Even a blade of grass, leaf, tree, clouds, rain drops, grains of sand and dirt or chair is a Person in Goloka.

Everything their is alive!

Of course in the material world our individuality becomes covered by many different species of material bodies but underneath it all the jivatma or jiva tattva is there as an individual.

Therefore it is very important we understand we have a "sense of independence and individuality as jiva tattva" this is what "marginal" means that makes us a unique "person"

To say you can never leave Goloka once there is true for most but not all because we can choose to miss use our free will.

Without having that choice, Prabhupada says we are no better than a stone, we would not be able to give love or receive love.

And yes, many devotees have found this subject’s true meaning in Sastra very difficult to understand and therefore call it inconceivable rather than attempting to understand it or believe others understand it.

Understand what?

That making "choices" (that allows one to increase their “unique” individual expression of love for Krishna) is always with the marginal living entity even in Vaikuntha and to take that ability (the sense of self) away from the marginal living entity in Vaikuntha, the jivatma loses the individual ability to “give and accept love”.

This is because without free will we lose our sense of independence as a person of having a unique separate identity from all of other individual jivatmas, Vishnu tattvas, and Krishna Himself.

These are important points to understand.

We, the jivatma souls are independent thinking souls eternally but simultaneously part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna the cause of all causes meant to please the Lord as the unique “persons”.

Therefore, no one can force the jivatma to stay in Vaikuntha, that choice MUST be eternally yours (the jivatma)

Only Vishnu tattvas and Vishnu shakti tattvas never fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana because they are direct expansions of Krishna playing different roles in Krishna's pastimes and have 93% of Krishna’s qualities making them direct expressions of Krishna Himself.

Some Vishnu shakti tattvas are gopis including Radharani, gopas, parents, lovers etc many, many different personalities.

Krishna’s brother Balarama is Vishnu tattva and many others are too playing different parts in Krishna Lila just like in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes where many are Vishnu tattva playing a roll also.

It is ONLY these residents of Vrindavana who NEVER fall down into forgetfulness.

And the fact is, more than 90% of jivatma’s also “choose” to stay in Vaikuntha and never enter the material world seeking selfish desires.

All jiva tattvas have only 78% of Krishna’s qualities can leave if they choose.

To be in Vaikuntha does not always guarantee you will stay there forever and never enter the material world.

Although as already explained 90% never choose to forget Krishna because that is their desire and expression of free will.

Past Sages and Acharyas say the jivatma can never fall down once they are in Vaikuntha. Yes, the fact is the jivas are not suppose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha and most never do, but Prabhupada has further explained this subject matter also and has said that sadly some jivas DO choose to leave or fall from Vaikuntha however, he explains it is only a very small minority who foolishly make that choice, less than 10%.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975.

Let's clear one thing up, falling into the material world has absolutely nothing to do with maya or the material energy because maya does not and can not exist in Vaikuntha.

The jivatma’s do not even know Maya or the material energy exists, however, they do have "free will and the ability to choose" and are aware that this quality is “eternally” part and parcel of the jivatma’s makeup and exists in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

We do not lose our independence and sense of individual identity once we enter Vaikuntha, we are eternally independent living entities but depend of Krishna Personally or His many Vishnu expansions who provide all facilities in the material creation.

In other words we are always independent living entities but always depend on Krishna just like the Sun rays cannot exist without the Sun.

The fact is because we can "choose to be with Krishna or reject Him", then there can be increasing endeavors of loving exchange due to “choice”.

This is one of the reasons why the material universe was created - to give "reality" to that choice of rejecting and forgetting Krishna, so the living entity can go to another place outside Vaikuntha if they choose, to try and enjoy without being conscious of Krishna’s existence (that place where one can forget Krishna is called the material creation)

The marginal living entity or jivatma also must have the free will to choose Krishna instead of just being in Vaikuntha without no choice. The point made here is the position of the jivatma in Vaikuntha must be voluntary.

Who you love and who you choose to serve MUST be voluntary.

Many cannot understand these facts about the importance of free will, individuality, identity and the sense of self worth of being a unique person who can give selfless ever increasing love or service in their own way to Krishna.

These qualities are based on the importance of the individual's ability to have "choices" within their experiences as a individual person.

Once again to be truly free there must be the choice of Vaikuntha or its so called opposite where Krishna can be forgotten, the "material creation"

Without the jivatma’s being able to choose Krishna or not there can never be love, Prabhupada has said to force love is called rape.

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada - “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada - “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

It takes only free will to live separately from Krishna and this choice has nothing to do with maya or material energy as explained above - it is simple free will that allows us to be a independent person and enter the material creation too.

To do that one is given material bodies, a subtle and gross body that covers the spiritual form.

In the material world, the jivatma has to put up with the gross material body always being in a state of decay and then eventually being forced to take another gross material body.

Also once in the material creation, you're on your own terms, you are responsible therefore karma begins as soon as you leave Vaikuntha.

No jivatma souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, they often fall to it but have not come from there as Srila Prabhupada tells us.

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.

Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down’’.

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘’These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna Happening record album New York 1966.

Srila Prabhupada - ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha.

By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task'' - New York lecture on Caitanya-caritamrta, July 13, 1976.

Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. SB 4.29.83 Purport.

Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Chakravarti, asked Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada.

“Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva?”

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta told him, “”You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter.”

Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ”We want freedom.”‘ They replied, “You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you.”

But finally, he told them, “We want the freedom to do wrong.” So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong.

Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination.

As a result of this first action, everything else has developed.

So, in different ranks the species have been divided from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way.

The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved.” End of quote

Srila Prabhupada makes our "original position" with Krishna very clear.

And yes, maya cannot be blamed for our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha, nothing material can exist there.

But free will does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions.

Srila Prabhupada on the other hand chose to come here to serve Krishna's plan to attract the fallen souls in the material universe back home back to Godhead.

Many devotees also come here to preach Krishna Consciousness.

There are three ways to come here, as a devotee who preaches, as a devotee who plays the part as a great demon like Jai and Vijai the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha.

And those who "choose" to just forget and give up Krishna's association and do their own thing.

Also one can never have material desires in Vaikuntha because Maya does NOT exist there.

Maya cannot be blamed for tempting us and causing our fall down from Vaikuntha in any way because she, in her role as the personification of material energy, does NOT exist in Vaikuntha.

Nothing material can exist there.

But ''free will'', ''independence'' and ''individuality'' does and always will exist in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana. We therefore leave because of free will and the ability to choose to accept or reject Krishna.

As an individual ''person'' endowed with independent thought and identity, we are able to make such chooses.

What does the majority of people think being a "PERSON" really means after you surrender to Krishna?

Do they think it is becoming some "yes man or women" of Krishna in His Kingdom where one becomes a mindless none thinking denier of the "individual self" who has unique qualities that makes you an individual?

Do they think surrender means we give up our individuality? Sadly, so many have no idea what real "personalism" is which is a word tied to individuality.

The idea of "don't think just do what your told" is impersonalist nonsense because it denies ''you'' to use your own abilities and talents to contribute something unique to your personality that no one else may have.

So no, "you" DO NOT give up your independent individuality and sense of self worth and esteem to be fully surrendered and "dependant" on Krishna, maintaining that individuality is part of surrendering.

In fact in Goloka your individual independence and dependence on Krishna go together side by side increasing simultaneously at the same time and is always expanding in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

It takes spiritual intelligence to understand what real surrender is, and that includes understanding ‘’you’’ are eternally an independent individual person with your own sense of "individual self" separate from all other individual jiva souls.

Although Krishna always accompanies all jiva tattva souls as a friend and witness to the jivatmas individual choices and actions because we are eternally parts and parcels of the Lord.

Please read the above essay again, it explains we are all "unique individual persons" who are endowed with independent qualities allowing one to eternally give "THEIR OWN" best to Krishna.

The jiva tattva is not part of an "all one programmed none thinking impersonal collective" within God's Kingdom, no, that is a description of what hell is like.

Impersonalism means believing that in Vaikuntha we give up our independence and individuality and become part of an "all one collective consciousness"

Living an impersonal existence is to be devoid of individual thought that does not allow personal contributions that makes ''you'', who you really are, as a person, as Krishna's eternal servant, as a unique living entity who can contribute the best of ''their'' individual abilities to Krishna.

On the other hand personalism means the individual jiva must be able to grow and flourish as an independent living being giving their own personal contributions of devotional service to Krishna.

To ''deny'' the jiva tattva's ''individuality'' and ''independent sense of identity'' is the hell "real" Krishna devotees fear.

Many devotees in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math have an impersonalist idea about what Vaikuntha is like and do not even know it.

Only when the living entity desires not to be with Krishna do they enter the material world and realize Maya's existences.

Paramahamsa - “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.

Srila Prabhupada - “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.

Paramahamsa - “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Paramahamsa - “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.

Therefore "we" are responsible for our choices and actions.

So the conclusion is Srimad Bhagavatam explains the fall down of the jiva from Vaikuntha found in the 4th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam where the Supreme Lord is disguised as a brahmana;

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.28.53,

''The brāhmaṇa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world''.

From your aspiring servant Gauragopala dasa Acbsp

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Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 6, 2018 at 12:48am
Srila Prabhupada answered philosophical questions from leaders and expected them to teach the correct understanding to devotees in general.
 
Several of the most profound answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha were written to Jagadisa dasa when he was engaged as Temple president for Toronto.
 
Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.
 
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence''. End of quote
 
Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970
 
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no “ NEW” soul. “New'’ and “old'’ are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul''. End of quote
 
Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970
 
Srila Prabhupada - “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence.
 
But his relationship with Krishna is never lost, simply forgotten by the influence of maya so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new'' End of quote
Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 6, 2018 at 12:15am

The Paramatma and the jiva tattva is within every atom so there are jivas EVERYWHERE in all things ‘Sarva gatah’ which means life is EVERYWHERE

Tamala Krishna: Srila Prabhupada, someone asked a question the other day about the atom which I couldn't gi
ve the answer to. His question is that if we say that within the atom the living entity, the jiva, is present, and life symptoms means six symptoms of birth, growth... 

Prabhupada: That's all right. Their life symptoms has not yet come. But there is. 

Jayadvaita: Potential. 

Prabhupada: Yes. 

Tamala Krishna: His question was... It was sort of a dual question. At what time, or what...? Just like at the time of disintegration of this body, the living entity leaves this body and the body disintegrates, so does the atomic body also disintegrate when the living entity leaves it and moves to a higher body? 

Prabhupada: Atomic body? Atomic body means material body. Unless you are free from this material body, the atomic body will go on with you. That means unless you are mukta, the atomic body will go on. Mind, intelligence, ego — they are also atomic, finer atomic body. 

Tamala Krishna: But within each atom the living entity is present? 

Prabhupada: Yes. God is present; therefore living entity is present. 

Tamala Krishna: So the living entity is present within the atom just as I am present within this body. When I leave this body, my body breaks apart. 

Prabhupada: Yes, you leave this body, enter another body. 

Tamala Krishna: Right. 

Prabhupada: By nature's law. 

Tamala Krishna: And when I leave this body, the body breaks apart. 

Prabhupada: Eh? 

Tamala Krishna: When I leave this body, the body dis... 
Prabhupada: The body is already atomic combination. 

Tamala Krishna: Yes. 

Prabhupada: So it remains atomic combination. You leave the body. 

Tamala Krishna: Yes. It remains... 

Prabhupada: You leave the house. That does not mean the house is finished. 

Tamala Krishna: Right, I can understand that. 

Hamsaduta: He's asking that if the soul leaves the atomic particle, then does the particle break apart. Isn't it? 

Prabhupada: No, no. You have not left atomic particle. 

Tamala Krishna: No, but you, you're... I think you were saying that within the atom there's also a living entity. So when that living entity leaves the atomic particle does the particle break apart? Or doesn't it? I mean what...? 

Prabhupada: Just try to understand. From the sastra, you understand that andantara-stham: "God lives within the atom." 

Tamala Krishna: Yes. 

Prabhupada: And when the God is there, living entity's also there. This... This much you try to understand. Because God and living entity, they remain together, as two friends. God is trying to save this fallen friend. That is the information from Upanisad. So when God is there, the living entity is also there. 

Rupanuga: So Paramatma and jivatma are always together. 

Prabhupada: Yes. 

Tamala Krishna: Can we say that the living entity is present within the atom by consciousness? 

Prabhupada: Hm? No. Consciousness will gradually develop according to the bodily situation. 

Pancadravida: How does the jiva get out of the atom and take a gross body? 

Prabhupada: Hmm? 

Pancadravida: How will that jiva... 

Prabhupada: (laughing) Body is combination of atoms. How he gets out of the atom. Body is nothing but combination of many atoms. Everything material is combination of many atoms. That's all. 

Pancadravida: The jivas inside the atom, are they like impersonalists who are in the Brahman? 

Prabhupada: That you consider. He has not developed his consciousness. Practically, it is like dead. Morning Walk, April 4, 1975, Mayapur

Some may say that the soul or jiva tattva is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair so how could the soul be smaller than an atom, well, the atom the scientists discribe is not the same as the Srimad Bhagavatam describes where it says that six atoms together can be seen by the naked eye - 

SB Canto 3

The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasareṇu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen.

SB 3.11.5, Translation and Purport: The division of gross time is calculated as follows: two atoms make one double atom, and three double atoms make one hexatom. 

This hexatom is visible in the sunshine which enters through the holes of a window screen. One can clearly see that the hexatom goes up towards the sky. 
The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasareṇu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen.

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 6, 2018 at 12:12am

Srila Prabhupada – “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada - “A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 6, 2018 at 12:08am
Srila Prabhupada - "After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down--what to speak of this material world." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
 
The following clearly explains how we actually never really fall down from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, we only 'think' we do. this is the correct understanding of ALL past Acarayas.
 
Srila Prabhupada – “No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport)
 
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974
 
Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
 
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.83.
 
Srila Prabhupada – “After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Sri Narada Mahamuni or his servants, he is liberated from this ‘dreamland’ of material creation and the bodily conception of life”. Srimad Bhagavatam 4/29/83/
 
Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a ‘dream’. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam. 4.29.2.
 
Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat-tattva, which is a state of the Lord's dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord's dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations. He can therefore bring everything under His transcendental control, and thus whenever and wherever He does appear, He does so in His fullness”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
 
Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
 
Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”.
 
Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971
 
Srila Prabhupada - “Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally, That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. Bhagavad-Gita as it is, Introduction.
 
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone (all marginal living entities) is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)” Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
 
Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977
 
Srila Prabhupada - "So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body". Germany, June 22, 1974
 
Srila Prabhupada - "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna." - Letter of November 17, 1970
Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 11:50pm

Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world’. (Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968)

There are only two 
types of living entities, Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva, and the other is called the Supreme Lord”. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”

Sakti tattva is the expansion of Radharani or Krishna's internal potency which is also called Vishnu-sakti-tattvas. 

Most of the gopis and gopas are therefore sakti-tattva which is technically an expansion of Vishnu tattva. There are some who are jiva tattva or marginal living entities like us as Prabhupada explains however, this means that weather the jiva tattva are in the spiritual world or material world, they are always called jiva tattva or marginal. 

Entering into the Vaikuntha realm does not change that our status of always being marginal. Associating with the internal potency does mean we lose our marginal identity as jiva tattva, we can never become Vishnu sakti tattva, we can never become God or his different expansions like sakti tattvas

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 11:06pm

Trivikrama - “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read … 

Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there - It is simply dreaming condition”. 

Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying… 

Srila Prabhupada - “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . . 

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen… 

Srila Prabhupada - “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 11:02pm

To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. 

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970        

Srila Prabhupada - 'The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.  

Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. 

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.  

Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.  

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system. 

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.  

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.  

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.” 

What Prabhupada is saying is the jivas were previously active ''before'' entering Maha Vishnu's effulgence, he is saying they never originated from that effulgence even though it may ''appear'' they do because of an enormous time span. 

They have actually fallen to that effulgence by entering it at the end of the previous material creation or may have entered it as an impersonalist yogi, they have never originated from there or Maha Vishnu either because long, long, long before that they fell from Vaikuntha  

This is explained here – 

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I'm still fallen. 

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls. 

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. 

Revatīnandana: That follows? 

Srila Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen. 

Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful. 

Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahma-jyotir you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness. 

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 10:40pm

The Spiritual World was never created nor will it ever end, the same with the soul, YOU the soul was never created and nor will you ever cease to be.

We all eternal beings

Bhagavad Gita As It Is Chapter 2 Text 12

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. 

PURPORT

In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities, in terms of their different situations according to individual work and reaction of work. 

That Supreme Personality of Godhead is also, by His plenary portions, alive in the heart of every living entity. Only saintly persons who can see, within and without, the same Supreme Lord, can actually attain to perfect and eternal peace.

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam
eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman
tam atmastham ye 'nupasyanti dhiras
tesam santih sasvati netaresam.
(Katha 2.2.13)

The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge. 

The Lord says clearly that He Himself, Arjuna, and all the kings who are assembled on the battlefield, are eternally individual beings and that the Lord is eternally the maintainer of the individual living entities both in their conditioned as well as in their liberated situations. 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme individual person, and Arjuna, the Lord's eternal associate, and all the kings assembled there are individual, eternal persons. It is not that they did not exist as individuals in the past, and it is not that they will not remain eternal persons. 

Their individuality existed in the past, and their individuality will continue in the future without interruption. Therefore, there is no cause for lamentation for anyone.

The Mayavadi theory that after liberation the individual soul, separated by the covering of maya or illusion, will merge into the impersonal Brahman and lose its individual existence is not supported herein by Lord Krsna, the supreme authority. 

Nor is the theory that we only think of individuality in the conditioned state supported herein. Krsna clearly says herein that in the future also the individuality of the Lord and others, as it is confirmed in the Upanisads, will continue eternally. 

This statement of Krsna is authoritative because Krsna cannot be subject to illusion. If individuality is not a fact, then Krsna would not have stressed it so much—even for the future. The Mayavadi may argue that the individuality spoken of by Krsna is not spiritual, but material. 

Even accepting the argument that the individuality is material, then how can one distinguish Krsna's individuality? Krsna affirms His individuality in the past and confirms His individuality in the future also. 

He has confirmed His individuality in many ways, and impersonal Brahman has been declared to be subordinate to Him. Krsna has maintained spiritual individuality all along; if He is accepted as an ordinary conditioned soul in individual consciousness, then His Bhagavad-gita has no value as authoritative scripture. 

A common man with all the four defects of human frailty is unable to teach that which is worth hearing. The Gita is above such literature. No mundane book compares with the Bhagavad-gita. 

When one accepts Krsna as an ordinary man, the Gita loses all importance. The Mayavadi argues that the plurality mentioned in this verse is conventional and that it refers to the body. But previous to this verse such a bodily conception is already condemned. 

After condemning the bodily conception of the living entities, how was it possible for Krsna to place a conventional proposition on the body again? 

Therefore, individuality is maintained on spiritual grounds and is thus confirmed by great acaryas like Sri Ramanuja and others. It is clearly mentioned in many places in the Gita that this spiritual individuality is understood by those who are devotees of the Lord. 

Those who are envious of Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead have no bona fide access to the great literature. The nondevotee's approach to the teachings of the Gita is something like bees licking on a bottle of honey. 

One cannot have a taste of honey unless one opens the bottle. Similarly, the mysticism of the Bhagavad-gita can be understood only by devotees, and no one else can taste it, as it is stated in the Fourth Chapter of the book. 

Nor can the Gita be touched by persons who envy the very existence of the Lord. Therefore, the Mayavadi explanation of the Gita is a most misleading presentation of the whole truth. 

Lord Caitanya has forbidden us to read commentations made by the Mayavadis and warns that one who takes to such an understanding of the Mayavadi philosophy loses all power to understand the real mystery of the Gita. 

If individuality refers to the empirical universe, then there is no need of teaching by the Lord. The plurality of the individual soul and of the Lord is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed by the Vedas as above mentioned.

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 10:38pm

Full conversation in the heading quotes reveals what Prabhupada means when he says less than 10% fall down Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at d
ifferent times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.

Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.

Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Comment by Gauragopala dasa on June 5, 2018 at 2:39pm

Srila Prabhupada answers the quotes in Sastra said by Acyutananda when he quotes from Bhagavata Gita As It Is Chapter 8 text 16 and Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 text 35 that no one falls down

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote

For those who believe past Acharyas and sages meant that ''no one can ever fall down'' from Vaikuntha meant to address all souls in Vaikuntha, have not understood the variety of living entities in Vaikuntha and it is only a small minority of ONLY jiva tattva souls who do chose to leave.

They have NOT understood there are many different inhabitants of Vrindavana who never fall down by choice such as the Sakti Vishnu tattvas who are expansions of Krishna, they never fall down because they ARE simultaneously eternal associates and Krishna experiencing Himself in unlimited extended ways.

So for them, choice does not exist. And for over 90% of jiva tattva souls who do have the ability to choose, they also never fall down because they NEVER "choose" to fall down.

Devotee - “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .” End of quote

However, there will always be a very small minority of only the jiva tattvas (not the Sakti tattva or Vishnu tattva "direct expansions"of Krishna) who misuse their ability to "choose" and leave if they desire.

Free will is eternal even in Goloka and in fact without our ‘sovereignty as a living being’ to either forget or remember Krishna, then we would not have any individuality, no independent personality and no ability to love, we would be mindless ''yes'' drones like machines in a factory.

Srila Prabhupada - “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976) End of quote

Krishna has many different energies. Jiva is one, Matter is one, the consorts of the Lord are one.

Technically we are all Sakti tattva however there are different categories, we are the jiva tattva living entities known as the the ''marginal energy'' while others are Sakti tattvas and part of the ''internal potency or energy''.

The Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities are ''the eternal inhabitants of Vrindavana who can never fall down or choose to forget Krishna because THEY are direct expansions of Krishna Himself and part of His internal energies or potency of unlimited expansions and associates.

For example the Pancha Tattva are a combination of Sakti tattva and Vishnu tattva Personalities with only one being jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - ''Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Advaita, Śrī Gadādhara, and Śrīvāsādi. Śrīvāsādi means jīva-tattva. The jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, viṣṇu-tattva, these are all tattvas. So Pañca-tattva. Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is the supreme tattva, Kṛṣṇa. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. We are worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. So Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa combined''.Lecture on CC Adi-lila 7.5 -- Mayapur, March 7, 1974 End of quote

Sakti tattva is not exactly Vishnu Tattva even though Sakti tattva is also called Sakti-Vishnu-tattva. The correct understanding is that all of Krsna’s energies are under the broad category of Sakti-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada - ''There are viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva and śakti-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth, jīva-tattva is part and parcel, and śakti-tattva is the energy of God''. Lecture on SB 1.5.15 -- New Vrindaban, June 19, 1969

Sakti tattva the energy of Krishna are eternally occupied with their service to the Lord, such expansions have only the desire to please Krishna or His Vishnu expansion, they can never be covered by Maya and their concept of free will and independence is only to please Krishna or Vishnu as they are indirect and direct expansions of Godhead.

Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are made up of many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas such as gopis, gopas and many, many others, there is also jiva tattvas (part and parcels) playing many roles in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrndavana as well, just like the Sakti Vishnu tattvas are.

In Goloka Vrindavana no one knows who is who, who is jiva tattva, who is sakti tattva or who is jiva tattva, they do not even know this little boy Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the cause of all causes.

As already explained, Sakti Vishnu tattvas can never fall down. Also the jiva tattvas can NEVER become Sakti tattvas or Vishnu tattvas.

And jiva tattvas can never lose their separate individual independence from Krishna even though technically all living entities are Sakti tattva expansions of Krishna that are fully dependent on Krishna like the sun rays are expansions that emanate from the Sun.

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