When fall down from the spiritual worlds takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition which means Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls can also fall further to impersonal Brahman or impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming fed up and frustrated with the material existence and the cycle of birth and death.
In this way the fallen jiva-souls seek out the "inactivity" or a dormant state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti in an attempt to escape the suffering of repeated birth and death and trying to enjoy the temporary decaying material creation they mistakenly believe is their home.
Also never did the jiva-souls first originate from that impersonal Brahmajyoti as some foolishly believe, from some nonsense clear sheet of inactive consciousness called tatastha-sakti.
The correct understanding of tatastha-sakti is it is already a fallen state, so the jiva-souls certainly never originated from an already fallen condition.
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti where souls are literally generated from or originate from.
The marginal plane (the category the individual jiva-souls are under) is not like that at all. The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are known as tatastha-sakti and many other names because each name describes a particular "conditioned state" they are in, be it in the material creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
But not in Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha, the jiva-souls are not in a conditioned state there in the spiritual world, so they are not known as tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
Tatastha-sakti (the marginal potency or living entities) is not a place, it is a description of the jiva-souls in their "conditioned" state.
Some say the jiva-souls are generated from tatastha-saki which technically is incorrect.
This is because tatastha-sakti is a name describing the already "conditioned fallen state" of the marginal living entity (jiva-souls)
The correct understanding is the jiva-souls are in the category known as the "marginal potency or marginal living entities" who are individual jiva-souls that are part and parcel of a collective called Krsna's marginal energy.
This means the jiva-souls are not literally generated from some place in the cosmos, that idea is imagination because the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) never originated from anywhere, they are eternal without beginning or end as Bhagavad Gita As It Is teaches.
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti, it is a word describing the already fallen "conditioned state" of the marginal living entities as said above.
The fact is the individual jiva-souls are not generated from anywhere because they have always existed as part and parcel of the marginal category of Krsna's energies.
The English word "generated" can be misleading in this regards because many think it means beginning.
However, in Srimad Bhagavatam the use of this word "generated" really means they are part and parcel of a category called the marginal energy or potency, a collection of unlimited individual jiva-souls who are eternal, which means they were never created or generated from any origin.
This is because there is no origin for the jiva-souls, their eternal home is Goloka-Vrindavana.
So the proper understanding is, the marginal energy or potency (jiva-souls), are made up of unlimited perpetual jiva-souls who are all eternal surround Krsna's perpetual abode like the sun-rays surround the Sun-disc.
Both Krsna and His energy the jiva-souls are eternal and cannot exist separate from each other, yet are simultaneously separated but only within Krsna's control that He allows.
The marginal potency or individual jiva-souls originates from Goloka-Vrindavana and from there pervades the spiritual worlds, material creation and the impersonal brahmajyoti with unlimited individual marginal living entities or jiva-souls.
The jiva-souls are always in the category of the marginal potency (individual living entities known also as the jiva-tattva) who can choose to exist in the spiritual world, the material creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Only the material energy is created and is also temporary, while the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are eternal, they were never created, nor did they originate or were generated from outside of Goloka-Vrindavana.
As said above, the word tatastha-sakti is a fallen conditional state of the jiva-souls used after they have left Goloka Vrindavana and Vaikuntha.
The individual marginal living entities (jiva-souls) are Krsna's energy who are eternal, they can never be the energetic (Krsna) or Visnu-tattva.
All rebellious jiva-souls (less than 10%) enter first the material creation after leaving Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana via the dreams of Maha-Visnu, and not from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha-sakti as some claim.
Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." (Lecture on BG, August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha." (Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)
Tatastha-sakti refers only to those who are already fallen, those "conditioned" in the material creation and further fallen to the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
In other words, tatastha-sakti does not describe those jiva-souls in their original "none-fallen" position in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
Tatastha-sakti is a name describing the none Krsna conscious condition of the fallen jiva-souls.
Srila Prabhupada - "So this material world is the taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics, and the spiritual world is the "personal" characteristics. So our effort is to get out of this taṭastha (conditioned) characteristics and to enter the permanent characteristics. That is called spiritual elevation." (Lecture on CC Madhya-lila 20.354-358, New York, December 28, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "Because the individual soul is apt to fall down sometimes under the clutches of māyā, it is called taṭastha-śakti. Just like in the seaside the shore, the beach, sometimes you see it is covered by water and sometimes it is land; similarly, when we are covered by māyā, that is our jīva-bhūta stage, and when there is no more covering, that is brahma-bhūta stage. When we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, then we are brahma-bhūta (SB 4.30.20), and when we are not Kṛṣṇa conscious, we are materially conscious, that is māyā." (Lecture on BG 7.4-5 - Bombay, March 30, 1971)
The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are not called tatastha-sakti in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana as Prabhupada explains above because the word is a "conditioned" designation.
The word tatastha-sakti refers to the marginal living entities (jiva-souls) in their fallen conditioned state in both the material creation and when dormant in the (impersonal) Brahmajyoti.
Revatīnandana - "Srila Prabhupāda you very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the jiva-soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva-soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes."
Revatīnandana - "That means all jīva-souls there in the impersonal Brahman (Brahmajyoti) are also fallen souls?"
Srila Prabhupāda - "Yes, existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition (Goloka-Vrindavana and Vaikuntha). The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness.'' (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970 and 1971 London)
The jiva-soul's original position in Goloka Vrindavana from where they originated from, have the same bodily features as Krsna-
sat,
cit,
ananda,
vigraha.
Which means-
Eternity,
Knowledge,
Bliss.
Form.
All together as a perpetual bodily form like Krsna's two-arm bodily form in their original position.
The full potential and original feature of all marginal living entities is a two arm form like Krsna's Body Prabhupada explains.
Devotee – "Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs."
Hari-sauri – "How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?"
Srila Prabhupada – "[describing material form first] Yes, they are more covered, just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul."
Hari-sauri - "Are they covered in the spiritual world?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Not in the spiritual world, there that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krsna as flower; they become flower there. If I want to be a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krsna and become flower, voluntarily, and can change from flower to human body if one desires. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krsna as cow, he serves Krsna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything. It is inconceivable, yet a fact." (SB 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Hare Krsna Happening record album, New York December 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down." ( Lecture July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Srila Prabhupada - ''The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sädhana-siddha, krpa-siddha-there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha." (CC lecture, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - ''By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated)." (Lecture on CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas (eternally conditioned) AGAIN nitya-siddha (eternally liberated), to bring them back to their original position. It is a difficult task.'' (New York lecture on CC, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation." (SB 4.29.83 Purport)
Srila Prabhupada further explains-
Srila Prabhupada - ''The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness." (Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long as one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness, he does not fall down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness, immediately he falls down." (Letter to Revatinandana, Los Angeles 13 June, 1970)
Devotee – "When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down to the material world, because we’re already serving Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that, "don’t fall down."
Devotee – "Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving Krsna."
Srila Prabhupada – "Because you have got little freedom, you have free will. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire."
Devotee – "In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, then why are we here?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes, you forced Krsna to allow you to come, just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there, but he insists, "Oh, I must go. I must go. All right, you go at your risk and suffer. What can be done?" So because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father, so God does not interfere with your independence, your free will. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy."
(Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
Acyutananda - ''So what made the jiva-soul take birth in the material world in first place?''
Srila Prabhupada - ''In the first place?''
Acyutananda - ''What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth."
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes, that is stated in the Prema-vivarta:
krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare
"We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth." (Lecture on SB 5.5.2, Hyderabad, April 11, 1975)
Acyutananda – "But in the Bhagavad Gita it says, "Once coming to the spiritual world, he never returns to the material creation. He can return?"
Srila Prabhupada – "If he likes he can return."
Guru-kripa – "How is it that one can become envious of Krsna?"
Srila Prabhupada – "You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God. God has got full independence, but you have got independence too, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, so if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown." (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada - "So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?’ I immediately fall down, that is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking he can."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He is protecting you. He says, "You rascal, don’t desire an independent existence without Me, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal; you do not do this."
Vipina Purandara - "Why doesn’t Krsna save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me." Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.)
Paramahamsa - "But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "There is return, that is voluntary, return is there."
Paramahamsa - "If we want."
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa - "So we can come to the spiritual world and return?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes."
Paramahamsa -"Fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, as soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice, yes, Krsna says, yes, you go and enjoy the material world, otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will. Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that."
Paramahamsa - ''So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these material bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position."
Srila Prabhupada - ''Yes." (Morning Walk Cheviot Golf Course, May 13, 1973, LA)
Therefore we are responsible for our choices and actions and in the material creation free will almost does not exist because one is binded by their own reactions to their pious and impious deeds (karma)
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 4/25/1970)
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions, where are all the spirit souls coming from? These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no new soul, new and old are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth, how there can be new souls?" (Letter to Jagadisa, 7/9/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 02/27/1970)
Srila Prabhupada - "The relationship with Krsna is never lost, it is simply forgotten by the influence of maya, so it maybe regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.'' (Letter to Jagadisa, 02/27/1970)
Returning home back to Godhead is not necessarily permanent Prabhupada explains, that choice to stay or go is also the jiva-souls choice too.
Therefore it is not just a one-way decision that only Krsna makes for the jiva-souls and is final.
No, real loving exchanges can never exist without allowing the free will or choices involving the jiva-souls being in a two-way exchange.
Krsna does not run a totalitarian dictatorial regime in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana making the jiva-souls mindless puppets controlled by the puppet master (God).
This means the jiva-souls always have the choice to accept or reject Krsna, and can leave Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana at anytime.
Devotee – "In Srimad Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we here?" Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?"
Srila Prabhupada - "That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, you love me, you love me, you love me. Is it love? You love me, otherwise I will kill you! Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. You love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?" (July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C).
The jiva-souls in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana are forever expanding their expression of individuality with personal voluntary offerings based on free will and selfless loving reciprocal exchanges with Krsna, it is never a one-sided master/slave relationship with the Krsna (God)
Srila Prabhupada - "Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force, no, Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, You love me, otherwise I shall kill you! That is not love it is exploitation." (Washington DC July 8, 1976)
Real love, bhakti or service is always reciprocal, as said above, it is never a one-sided affair where surrender to Krsna takes away your sense of self, individuality and the ability to provide personal contributions and have independent choices.
This is important to understand because each individual jiva-soul has their own independent personality, sense of self and unique personality and character separate from Krsna's Personality, that are the unique make up of each individual marginal living entity (jiva-soul), make them the "person" they are eternally.
Srila Prabhupada - "Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. "So God does not interfere with your independence."
(Conversation Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974)
Devotee - "Srila Prabhupada why did Krishna give us free will if He knew we would miss use it?"
Srila Prabhupada - "If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must have free will! But don't misuse your free will. But don't try to become stone either. That is not life." (August 5, 1976, New Mayapur France)
Free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor ever given up or surrendered in the spiritual world as ignorant fools believe.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-souls (marginal living entities) natural constitution and therefore always exists without beginning or end in the spiritual planets.
However, free will in its full potential, is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavan, which are the jiva-souls original perpetual home.
The jiva-souls (marginal living entities) never emerged or originated from some nonsense dormant clear sheet of consciousness that fools claim is always growing with new jiva-souls, known as the dormant Brahmajyoti, Brahman as impersonalist gurus, sannyasis and their followers foolishly believe.
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti either where souls are literally generated or originate from, such teachings are nonsense.
As said above tatastha-sakti is a name describing the fallen conditioned circumstances of the jiva-souls, tatastha-sakti is not the original beginning point of the jiva-souls because it is already a fallen "conditioned state" the jiva-souls fell to long, long, long ago.
The marginal potency or marginal living entities are like the sun-rays surrounding the Sun-disc, however, in the case of Krsna and the jiva-souls, both have always been, both have always existed.
The marginal living entities or jiva-souls are also as tatastha-sakti in their "conditioned state" outside Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana.
As explained above, tatastha-sakti is not a place, it is a name describing those jiva-souls "conditioned" in the material creation or those "conditioned" in the dormant (inactive) impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Both conditions are already a "fallen condition," so clearly the jiva-souls never originated from an already fallen position, they never originated from tatastha-sakti.
It is said by some the jiva-souls are generated from the marginal plane but that simple means they are individual parts and parcels of the marginal energy among Krsna's energies.
The jiva-souls were never created by Krsna because the marginal living entity (jiva-souls) are part and parcel of Krsna's Body, and like Krsna, are eternal without beginning or end. Only the material worlds are created.
The fact is, on the spiritual platform there is no creation of the individual jiva-souls, they were never created, they have always been.
Srila Prabhupāda - "The soul is part and parcel of God. As God is not created--He is creator, above creation--so the father creates a child; therefore father is above creation. So God is above creation. God created the cosmic manifestation (material worlds). Before creation of this cosmic world, God was there. Therefore He is not created; He is creator of all created things. And the jiva-soul, being part and parcel of God, he is also not created." (Room Conversation with Dr. John Mize, June 23, 1975 Los Angeles)
All jiva-souls coming to the material creation directly originate from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan where they are beginningless and endless like Krsna and Visnu as explained above.
The jiva-souls have no origin, they are as old as Krsna.
In the spiritual worlds there is no creation of any kind including the individual jiva-souls, they were never created like Krsna was never created.
The jiva-souls have always been as Chapter 2 Text 20 Bhagavad Gita As It Is tells us-
"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain." (BG Chapter 2 Text 20)
The individual jiva-souls are unique independent parts and parcel of Krsna just like the sunrays and the Sun, and are just as old as Krsna (beginningless).
This means the jiva-souls are without beginning or end.
Srila Prabhupada – ''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at anytime, so there is always a chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence." (Letter to Jagadisa, 04/25/1970.)
Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence."(Letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970)
Only the material worlds (matter or material energy) is created, not the spiritual worlds or living beings.
When Krsna wanted to experience a loving relationship He knew it could never exist with just one so He divided Himself into two, Srimati Radharani and Krsna, the Divine couple.
The marginal living entities (jīva-souls) are a part and parcel of Krsna and cannot be separated from the Supreme, yet are also simultaneously separated as independent living beings with their own sense of self, individuality, personality and free will, they are not Krsna but are fully dependent on Krsna.
Room Conversation - May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada -
Pradyumna - "Do the five direct r)asas take place between jīva-souls also when they are..."
Srila Prabhupāda - "Everything for jīva-souls, all relationship. Kṛṣṇa is one, the Supreme, and all the jīva-souls are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore the eternal relationship is there. Now they are exhibited in these twelve kinds of humor, either directly or indirectly."(Room Conversation - May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
Srila Prabhupada - "The jīva-soul, a part and parcel, cannot be separated from the Supreme. Sun and the light, electric bulb, and the diffusion of light, they cannot be separated. But this portion is covered. It appears darkness. So when it is covered, that is called māyā, and he thinks that "I have no relationship with God," or "I am God, there is no God." This is māyā. He is covered. He cannot see. So he has to be treated by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness treatment, and the māyā will be separated, and he will see, "Ah, yes, I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa." Then he comes to the direct relationship." (May 10, 1969, Columbus, Ohio)
It is important to understand that no jiva-souls originate from the dormant Brahmajyoti, impersonal Brahman or tatastha-sakti (all of them already a fallen condition)
The fact is all marginal living entities (jiva-souls) originate directly from Goloka-Vrindavana their eternal home where they have an eternal svarupa spiritual bodily form but can voluntarily change to a bodily form of their choice, where the Lords pastimes are perpetually happening.
Srila Prabhupāda – ''Unless there are two persons, where is the question of love? Love means two persons, then there is exchange, then there is love. I must deal with you open-hearted, you must deal with me open-hearted, then there is love. So if you want to love Kṛṣṇa, God, then these things must be there." (August 9, 1976, Tehran)
Srila Prabhupada – "So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, or one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that is not independence, that is force." (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada - "Unless there is a possibility of misusing our free will, there is no question of freedom." (Dialectical Spiritualism, Critique of Descartes)
Syamasundara - "Can we predict that returning back home, back to Godhead will be permanent? Can we predict that? Just like many prisoners leave the prison, however some do come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "No, there is no permanent effect because we have got little independence. There is nothing permanent because you can misuse your independence at any time and leave when ever you choose."
Syamasundara - "So some come back to the material creation?"
Srila Prabhupada - "Yes, otherwise there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do this, you can do that. "All right. Whatever you like."
Devotee - "Then the jiva-soul is so many times falling down, again and again, so will he eventually permanently come back?"
Srila Prabhupada - "He has got independence, therefore there is the possibility he can misuse his independence and fall down. That's why when a man is released from the prison house, that does not mean permanently because he can come back again, the general law is not to come back, but if he likes, he can come back, otherwise what is the meaning of independence? But naturally if one becomes free from the prison house, he should not return there again."
(Discussions with Syamasundara > Henri Bergson)
For those who believe no one can ever fall down from Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana, they have not understood these clear points explained by Srila Prabhupada.
In Bhagavad Gita As It Is, Krsna promises the jiva-souls they will never again fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana to the material creation, and yes, Krsna will always keeps His promise!
However, are the jiva-souls forced to accept that promise from Krsna which means the jiva-souls lose their free will in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana and can never leave even if they want to, because of that promise from Krsna?
The fact is, Krsna's promise of never falling down to the material creation is Krsna's point of view and promise, but the fact is, the jiva-souls do not have to accept His promise as final, they can reject that too because of their free will?
There must be choice (free will) in the spiritual worlds otherwise there can be no question of loving voluntary exchanges that enrich a relationship.
Fortunately over 90% of jiva souls at one time choose to never fall down, only less than 10% choose to leave Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana Prabhupada has explained.
However, that also can change over eternity, after all, the jiva-souls are beginningless and endless.
Srila Prabhupada wrote me a letter when I was a young man of 23 years in early 1975 (found in vaniquotes).
I admitted to Prabhupada I was having difficulty that was not helped by our Sydney Temple being demolished by local council authorities (Bulldozed into the ground leaving us out on the sidewalk, including the Radha Gopinath Deities).
Many devotees left the movement as the struggle became too difficult for them however, I chose to stay when we moved to our incense factory building in an rough industrial area of Redfern Sydney.
So out of frustration, I wrote to Prabhupada expressing my frustrations and struggles, he wrote back bluntly saying I must follow his order and have no choice because I had already promised a few years ealier to follow his order at my initiation, otherwise, he warned me, I was only carving my way to hell!
Even though Prabhupada said I had no choice, the fact is for him to say "follow my teachings otherwise your going to hell" obviously indicates I do always have a choice.
Being young and immature as I was back then nearly 50 years ago, Prabhupada was really warning his young disciple to properly use free will and not miss use it.
So even though Prabhupada said I have no choice, the fact is there is always a choice-
"Follow Prabhupada's teachings, or go to hell."
Some, like my parents were disgusted and not impressed with what they described as Prabhupada's hash cold merciless comments to their young son, believing Prabhupada did not understand the difficulties the Temple in Sydney was going through at that time and at least I stayed while many others left never to be seen again.
Sadly over the years many immature leaders (including gurus, sannyasis and devotees) in ISKCON who have no idea what my relationship with Prabhupada is (that included my parents), have used that letter to put me down and belittle my faith and still do to this day.
Fortunately, when Prabhupada came a year after that letter was sent, he called me to his room and spoke nicely to me, concerned for my welfare and humbly asked me to never leave him.
Ultimately each individual jiva-soul is a unique person with their own personality who can choose for themselves how to voluntarily serve Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead and cause of all causes, the best way they can, or ignore Him if they want.
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never genuinely exist unless there are voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Srila Prabhupada - ''Love means you take and you give also. Suppose if you love somebody and you simply take from him, but you don't give. Oh, do you think it is very good? No. It is not good. That is not love. That is exploitation. If I go on simply taking from you, and if I don't offer you anything, that is simply exploitation." (Lecture on BG Chapter 9 text 2-5, New York, November 23, 1966)
Srila Prabhupada - ''We have got the propensity to love. Love means somebody else. Love cannot be one or love cannot be executed only with one, personally. There must be another one. I love somebody; somebody loves me, there must be two, there must be lover, there must be beloved in a two-way exchange otherwise how can there be love?" (Lecture on SB Canto 1 Chapter 2 text 6, Delhi, November 12, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada - ''Their (impersonalist) philosophy is oneness. So how there be love with just one? Is it possible? Have you got any such experience that love means one? No. Love means two. There must be two, the lover and the beloved. Kṛṣṇa is already lover. He loves you so much that He's trying to get you back. That is Kṛṣṇa's attempt. "Please, My dear boy, or My dear friend, My dear servant." (Lecture on SB Canto 2 Chapter 1 text 3, Paris, June 12, 1974)
Impersonalism has many meanings, there are other impersonalist who believe surrendering to Krsna means giving up your free will and unique personality and becoming Krsna's mindless yes man or women and puppet on a string.
The above impersonal version of Krsna consciousness must be rejected Prabhupada explains.
Srila Prabhupada – "In Bengali it is said, If you catch one girl or boy, you love me, you love me, you love me, is that love? You love me otherwise I will kill you!? Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver." (Washington DC July 1976)
As Prabhupada has explained, Krsna never forces the jiva-souls to surrender to Him, He never forces them to love Him, that must be voluntary otherwise love can never exist unless there is that endeavour to establish voluntary reciprocal exchanges.
Having free will or freedom is something never acquired, nor can ever be given up or surrendered in the spiritual world.
Free will is eternally part and parcel of the jiva-soul's natural constitution as a spiritual living entity and perpetually exists without beginning or end in the spiritual planets.
Therefore free will in its full potential is only fully experienced in Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavan, which are the jiva-soul's original perpetual homes.
On the other hand, free will in the material creation is greatly restricted and only experienced minutely in the human species.
In all other species of life in the material creation, there is no free will or the ability to enquire about the purpose of existence, there is only the instincts of eating, sleeping, mating and defending.
So the human form (material bodily vessel) the jiva soul has occupied, is very important because it is the most advanced species that can assist the trapped jiva-soul to get out of the material creation.
Such a material bodily vessel is very, very rare among the 8 million 400 thousand species of life, there are only 400 thousand human species, making the human body the only way out of the material creation under the guidance of a spiritual teacher or master.
Krsna never forces the jiva souls to surrender to Him or love Him, that they must choose for themselves, if He did use force, then that is not love, it is coerced surrender, exploitation and abuse.
There is always free will and the ability to always choose in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana which means one can choose accept or reject Krsna eternally.
Otherwise there is no meaning to free will.
A devotee once ask Srila Bhaktisiddhanta why was the jiva-souls granted free will when they could misuse it?
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta answered-
"You are fighting for freedom. Don’t you know the value of having free will? Devoid of freedom the soul is only matter. Real freedom or free will therefore offers the jiva-soul the alternative to do either right or wrong."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want our freedom too."
The British authorities replied-
"You are not fit to have self-government or freedom. When you are fit, we shall give it to you."
Gandhi then demanded-
"We want the freedom to do right or wrong too."
So having one's freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; no, the choice must be there to also do wrong if on chooses.
Free will means always to be able to choose for yourself what is right or wrong for you, and not forced by others to do what they believe is right or wrong for you.
Therefore the possibility of also rejecting Krsna must always be there too in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana because that's what free will also means - to always have a choice.
So those who claim the jiva-soul never again falls down from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana are talking nonsense no matter who they are or claim to be.
However, it is a fact that over 90% of jiva-souls have never been to the material creation, which means they have never left Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana.
The jiva-souls always have free will in both Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana and choose for themselves what they want to do, most never leave Krsna but less than 10% do choose to leave the spiritual worlds.
Our first choice after rejecting Krsna in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana, is to dominate and imitate Krsna, it is that choice, due to free will, that causes the jiva soul to enter the material temporary creation and try to dominate.
This choice of entering the material creation has nothing to do with the influence of Maya and the material energy.
This is because the material energy does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana.
As a result of the rebellious jiva-soul's "choice" to reject Krsna, there relocation to the material creation begins to developed based on the desire to enjoy separately.
Srila Prabhupada has explained that the "original position" of the jiva soul is always with Krsna in the spiritual world, engaged in a reciprocal relationship based on voluntary loving exchanges.
This is the jiva-soul's real eternal home and original position.
As explained above, Maya can never be blamed for the fall down of the jiva-soul from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavana to the material creation in any way.
As already exlained, Maya in her role as the personification of material energy, does not exist in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana, therefore Maya can never tempt the jiva-souls to forget Krsna in anyway.
Generally the only cause of fall down in most cases is the "free will" to make one's own choice to live separate from Krsna.
Another rare cause is offending great devotees like the gate keepers of Vaikuntha, Jai and Vijay did when they offended the four Kumaras by not letting them in to Vaikuntha (story in Srimad Bhagavatam)
The jiva-souls have "free will" eternally in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrindavana as part and parcel of their marginal constitutional make up as perpetual living entities.
Dr. John Mize – "Did all the jiva-souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any jiva-souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?"
Srila Prabhupada – "No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "So we’re among the 10%."
Srila Prabhupada – Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down."
Dr. John Mize – "Does Krsna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Krsna? Yes, Krsna may know because He is omniscient."
Dr. John Mize – "Are more jiva-souls falling all the time?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence. Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, "Where is the criminal? You are constructing…" Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency."
Dr. John Mize – "The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Yes."
Dr. John Mize – "From where does that tendency come?"
Srila Prabhupada – "Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krsna says,yathecchasi tathä kuru. "Now you do whatever you like." (BG lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Here is the taped conversation -
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