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Going out in the car for his morning walk Prabhupada gave further warnings to Tamal Krishna and Ramesvara Maharajas on the dangers of the sahajiya tendency spreading in ISKCON. Tamal Krishna is returning to New York a little early because he is concerned that it might be spreading there also. Pradyumna prabhu's ongoing investigation has discovered that the gopi-bhava group have been transmitting their ideas to other temple communities by some sort of unofficial newsletter.

Tamal Krishna told Prabhupada that one of the symptoms he has noticed about these people is that they don't go out on sankirtana.

As soon as he said that Srila Prabhupada cut in. "Then everything will be finished. Preaching will be finished. In this sahajiya party, then preaching will be finished." Declaring the siddha-pranali process as nonsense, Prabhupada told us where the whole thing was coming from. "They have learned it from these Radha-kunda babajis."

"From Radha-kunda babajis?" Tamal Krishna asked.

"Babajis, yes," Prabhupada reasserted. "After all, they're fool, rascals, so whatever they say..."

Ramesvara said he felt that the danger lay in their use of Prabhupada's own books for authority. But Prabhupada told him it was all right that they are taking some authority, the problem is that they are not taking all the instructions in his books. "That I've already explained. Why these rascals do not take the lessons of Caitanya Mahaprabhu that we are all rascals, fools? No. That they will not take. They'll take the Radharani's bhava. What Caitanya Mahaprabhu is teaching by His practical life, that we have to take."

Ramesvara repeated one of the statements from their newsletter. "Regarding service in a reverential mood; so they have found some quote, that reverential devotional service is an impediment toward developing pure love."

Tamal Krishna added another. "They quote that regulative principles are a hindrance on the path. There's a statement somewhere in one of your books that when one attains the highest platform..."

"Then where is that highest platform?" Prabhupada interupted.

"One must go through stages," Ramesvara said. "You gave the example of trying to get an M.A. degree."

"Yes," Prabhupada agreed. "One has to come to that highest stage. It is not forbidden. That may be ideal, but not for the neophytes. One who does not know ABCD, what he will know about M.A. degrees? That they do not know. They think that they have already passed M.A. degree. That is their fault."

Tamal Krishna Maharaja brought up another item from the newsletter. "There's another statement, I saw them, where it says, it's a quote, that you can treat Krsna as your lover and Krsna will reciprocate."

"And they underlined the two words 'you can' treat Krsna as your lover," I added. "In this way they're taking your quotes out of context."

"This is one of the main ideas in their philosophy, that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with Krsna," Ramesvara said.

"That's all right," Prabhupada told us, "he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire. You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to be High Court judge. What is this nonsense?"

Ramesvara was keen to get Srila Prabhupada's response to every possible argument. "But then they have an answer."

Prabhupada obliged him. "What is that answer?"

"Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..."

"How you can try it?" Prabhupada challenged. "First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer, then you become High Court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and bidi, and you want to be associated with the gopis."

"They say that 'In ISKCON, we do not...'"

"Let them say all nonsense," Prabhupada replied. "They are disqualified. Sahajiya babajis, that's all."

Tamal Krishna put their number at about fifty, just in Los Angeles alone, split fairly evenly between the women's group and the men's.

Speaking from my own experience with Sulocana and from other information heard over the last few days, I told Prabhupada they weren't content to keep it to themselves. "The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they take them into all the details of the gopis with Krsna."

"Then let them... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out," Prabhupada said.

When Ramesvara said he thought they were following the principles, Tamal Krishna Maharaja presented evidence to the contrary. He said the leader of the women's group was known to have had an abortion, even after she became a devotee.

This news stretched even Prabhupada's credulity. "That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of Krsna and gopis for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiya."

"That's the meaning of sahajiya. So that's on their minds," Tamal Krishna said.

"Yes," Prabhupada said. "We are restricting, 'No illicit sex.' They will put that 'Here is illicit sex between the gopis and Krsna.'"

Prabhupada knows full well how the cheating propensity acts within the realm of devotional service. He confirmed it would act as a justification for breaking the regulative principles. When I postulated that their mentality was one of impatience, not wanting to go through the gradual process of sadhana-bhakti but rather immediately jumping to the highest perfection, Prabhupada agreed. "That is the danger. But if they at once go to rasa-lila, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rasa-lila is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our... 'Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense.' That's all. And become a gopi. It is very good to aspire to become High Court judge, but how you can become High Court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion and they're High Court judge."

What he had to say next was really telling. He saw serious consequences for the progress of the movement unless it was stopped. "Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered."

Tamal Krishna Maharaja gave his firm assurance. "No, we're not going to do that."

"Or they should be separated," Prabhupada continued. "Otherwise, it will be bad example, and all restrictions will be broken."

"If they don't change their mentality," Tamal nodded in agreement, "then they should live separately, do their own society."

"And they'll do that," Prabhupada affirmed.

After saying that the sahajiya tendency is a very easy thing to take up, he again cautioned us. The good of the Movement was more important than any individual or group of individuals. "Anyway, keep your Movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure."

Tamal Krishna recalled that Prabhupada had once said that in the battle sometimes some men may be lost. Prabhupada told him, "Yes, that is natural."

After a few minutes Ramesvara raised another criticism they have of our Society. "Srila Prabhupada, some devotees, sometimes they feel that in ISKCON we're talking so much about the business of how to spread Krsna consciousness but we're not talking enough about Krsna's pastimes, krsna-katha, they say. So that's another reason why they want to read all these pastimes."

"Then let them read," Prabhupada said. "But why they're making pregnant and abortion? What kind of krsna-katha? The krsna-katha test is as soon as he'll get the taste, he'll lose this taste. What is this nonsense?"

"Won't it purify them? That's what they say, 'It will purify me.'"

"What you are purified?" Prabhupada asked skeptically. "You have become, what is called, putrified, not purified. You can read; be purified. You can read. But where is your purification?"

Again he spoke from his own experience. Theirs is not a new criticism. He already had experience of this kind of mentality. "The books are there for reading. By reading, you become purified. In 1935, our Guru Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, he went to Radha-kunda for Kartika-vrata. So at that time he was reading Upanisads. So first of all, these babajis they were coming. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come at Radha-kunda. He's giving some class. So they used to come. But as soon as they saw that he was reading Upanisads, they stopped coming. They saw: 'They are jnanis, they are not bhaktas.'"

"What did they want to hear?" Tamal Krishna asked. "Dasama-skandha?"

"Like that. So Prabhupada condemned them that 'They are not living in Radha-kunda. They're living in Nara-kunda [hell].' I heard it, 'They're living in Nara-kunda.'"

"So our men who go to Radha-kunda and live there..." Tamal ventured.

"Yes," Prabhupada said.

What he saw in 1935 he experienced again in the 1960s, when as a resident of Vrndavana's Radha-Damodara temple he made plans to go abroad to fulfill his spiritual master's order. As we traveled back to the temple in the car he repeated what he said two days ago. "Before coming to the USA, many sahajiyas they requested me, 'Sir, why you are going? You are in Vrndavana, continue your bhajana. What is the use of preaching?' They advised me like that."

"They don't believe in Lord Caitanya, these sahajiyas in Vrndavana?" Ramesvara asked.

"Mostly," Prabhupada said, agreeing. "They have no knowledge. Material. Prakrta-sahajiya. Their real name is prakrta. Their thoughts are on this material platform. Just as they are preferring this conjugal love because here the sex is prominent. They are thinking that is the highest stage. What is the lowest stage here, they're taking that as the highest stage. Of course, in the spiritual world there is such thing, but as Krsna has many other lilas, why they are not attracted to other lilas?"

"They don't want to be limited," Ramesvara said. "They think that Krsna is the krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. So why..."

"That is good. That is always true, but Krsna says, manu-yanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye/ yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah. How you have understood Krsna? Krsna says, 'Out of many millions of people, one becomes siddha, and out of many millions of siddhas, hardly one can understand Me.' So how you have understood Krsna so easily, within two years? What you have understood Krsna, that is materially understood. You do not know what is Krsna. That is prakrta-sahajiya. 'Oh, we have understood. Krsna was a playboy, dancing with His girls. Bas, we have understood.'"

Ramesvara continued to paraphrase their arguments. "If I follow the regulative principles and go on hearing about rasa-lila, then I'll be purified."

Prabhupada gave the counterpoints. "You say that; in the sastra does not say. ‚astra says that after you have studied all the nine cantos of Bhagavatam then enter into the tenth. Sahajiya means they take very easily. 'Everything is all right. Now I am perfect.' Krsna says, 'To understand Me, it will take millions of years.' And they understand Krsna immediately. That is called prakrta-sahajiya."

"Krsna's incarnation is to attract the living entities to Krsna. So let me read about rasa-lila, because I'm feeling some attraction," Ramesvara said.

"Then why not Kuruksetra lila?" Prabhupada said. "Krsna's lila is the same, absolute. You are attracted to rasa-lila means you have got sex desire. That's all. And actually, what you said, that one girl?"

"He said one girl, she killed her baby," Ramesvara answered.

"This is their business. This rasa-lila is for the person who is completely purified. When one is impure, he should not think of. That is stated in the Bhagavatam."

"In this they have misunderstood your Krsna book," Ramesvara told him.

"They must have misunderstood," Prabhupada said. "They are all rascals."

Prabhupada told his GBCs that they must try to rectify the situation and save the devotees involved. "Otherwise, they are finished."