Lord Sri Krishna says, "My dear Arjuna, there are different classes of men. One class of men, they are sleeping. And another class of men, they are awake. They are not sleeping." And how is this so? This chanting, which we have performed just now, is the wakening process for the sleeping soul. The soul is sleeping, covered by this material body. These bodily activities are in the sleeping stage. Just as we see dreams in the sleeping stage, similarly, all these bodily activities are dreams. Just think for yourself: how many incidents have there been in your past life? If you think of them, they will appear just like dreams. At least for myself this is the case. I was born in India, educated, then married, then I had very good days with my wife, got some children, some of whom died, some of whom are living, some of whom are married; now they have begotten children. All this occurred in my past life. Now it is all a dream. I have no connection with it. Similarly, in dreams I sometimes find that I have become a king. Oh, there are so many riches and so much opulence. Then, as soon as the dream is over, I come home and all is gone.

So actually, these bodily activities which we are now engaged in are not our actual life. Therefore, the Vedic mantra says, "O human race, please wake up. Just utilize the opportunity which you now have." You have a special opportunity. And what is that? This human form of life. Utilize it; don't waste it. Don't go on sleeping. This very same matter is taken up by Sri Krishna. Those who are accustomed to the yoga process know this. The first principle of the yoga process is to control the senses. This is so for every process. In any bona fide process for spiritual realization, the first principle is to control the senses. This is because the senses are dragging us into the darkest region of life. But we do not realize this.

In the Srimad Bhagawatam there is a nice verse. It says, first, man is too much addicted to this materialistic way of life. The materialistic way of life involves eating, drinking, making merry, and enjoying. That's it—that's all. Have very good food, sleep well, and defend yourself so that enemies may not enter into your country, or into your home. And, have sexual enjoyment to your heart's content. This is the materialistic way of life. But persons who are so sleeping do not realize that their real self-interest is different. Our real self-interest is that we must know of our lost relationship with the Supreme Absolute Truth.

The Supreme Absolute Truth is realized from different angles of vision, as impersonal Brahman, or localized Supersoul, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. One who realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna, automatically understands the other two features. But one who has approached only the impersonal feature of the Supreme Absolute Truth, has no information of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. Now here, in the Bhagavad Gita, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is present before you.

Here is the picture of Sri Krishna, with his eternal consort Srimati Radharani, His pleasure potency. In this material world, the reflection of Sri Krishna and His pleasure potency exists pervertedly. As one can see in the picture, Sri Krishna is always consorting with Srimati Radharani. His features are described in Vedic literature: He stands in a very nice curved posture, blowing His flute. This picture is not drawn from artistic imagination. It is a descriptive painting from the Vedic literature. This description is in the Vedic literature.

So, in the material world there is the perverted reflection of Sri Krishna's Pastime with Radharani. It is not sex life as we have it, although it appears to be like that. It is transcendental. But that which we are after here—that is real. A young man wants a young woman, and a young woman wants a young man—this is natural. This is not artificial. It is natural because we are all part and parcel of that Supreme Being, Krishna. His attitude is in me because I am His part and parcel, just as the quality of gold is present in the minute particles of the gold. The chemical composition of gold is one hundred per cent present in a small particle of gold. Qualitatively. Therefore the enjoyment which we want between man and women is not a perversion of love and friendship. It is simply a perverted reflection. The real enjoyment is awakened in association with the Supreme Lord, Sri Krishna. It is the same pleasure, but is in its pure form. That same bliss is there for you, but don't become entangled in this perverted form of enjoyment. Don't remain asleep. Don't remain in this dreaming condition. Have the real thing. Awaken from the dream. That is the message of the Vedas.

This is the opportunity. If you miss this opportunity in the human form of life—the developed consciousness—you will slip again into the cycle of 8 million, 400 thousand species of life that is developing, one form after another. That is the gradual process of evolution. We are still within the evolutionary process, but that evolutionary process should be forward, progressive. Not degraded. Don't slide. Don't go downward. By your many years of endeavor, you have come forward to this stage of life. Now, make further progress. Progress toward Sri Krishna. Don't go back.

The Srimad Bhagawatam says that most people do not know their self-interest in life. It is like coming to a crossroads and not knowing the way. Suppose you are going to Philadelphia, and after crossing New York City, you see a crossroads, and you do not know the road. Of course, in America, there is a very efficient system of direction on the roads. That way, you have no misguidance. Similarly, in the scriptures the Vedic literature gives you direction. Yes, here is a crossing. If you want to go this way, you may. So the Bhagawatam says that people do not know the direction by which to make progress. One must know that he must make further progress toward Vishnu. Why? Because this is a very highly developed life. In this form of life, we have very high intelligence. We have more intelligence than cats and dogs and other animals. Why misdirect it? The misdirection is due to being attracted to this bodily concept of life. One is thinking, "I shall be happy utilizing the body and the senses to the utmost."

Because we do not know what our progressive life is, we are trying to squeeze the essence out of this body. To enjoy it. In the Bhagawatam there is a very good example cited about these foolish men. They are compared with the camel. The camel is a desert animal very fond of twigs containing thorns. They have very long necks, and they take a bunch of twigs with thorns and begin to chew. By contact with the thorns, blood oozes out the tongue. Naturally, if you chew thorns, your tongue will be cut. So, when they take those thorns within the mouth and begin to chew, the blood comes out. And when the blood is mixed up in that form, they eat it, because blood has a taste he likes. He thinks that twigs with thorns are very tasteful. Our sex life is like that. Just squeeze it out of the body, and we think we are enjoying it. This is our position. Another example is given. In India the washermen keep asses. They load the ass as much as possible. The ass works all day and in the evening, his is offered some grass, and he's satisfied. For a morsel of grass, he is ready to work the whole day with a half ton of clothing on his back. Similarly, we also, the karmis, are very busy working all day and all night. And when we come home, we eat only one piece of bread. For one piece of bread, which costs not more than ten cents, one is working all day and all night. So the comparison is to the ass. The ass does not know for whom he is working so hard, and taking some bread. "This is the aim of my life." Is it my aim of life—to eat something and go to sleep, and have some sex pleasure and then die? No, this is not the aim of life. Your aim of life should be to realize yourself—that you are part and parcel of the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. Krishna is awaiting your arrival, so that you can enjoy life in His association.

One does not know what the progressive way of life is. Why? Because he has understood that this sense enjoyment is life's greatest pleasure. He is foolishly thinking that he will be happy by this sense enjoyment. This is just like having a horse which is not properly bridled. It is running on, running on, and you do not know where it will throw you. Similarly, uncontrolled senses are just like unbridled horses, dragging your chariot. You do not know where it will throw you. We do not realize how responsible we are for every action. To every small part of our action, there is a reaction. And our uncontrolled senses are putting us through the chain of action and reaction and dragging us into the darkest part of the universe.

Therefore, Lord Sri Krishna says that one who has learned how to control the senses is called swami. To a controlled person, worldly activities are darkness. Those who are situated in pure consciousness see that people who work hard simply for eating, sleeping, mating, and defending—these people are sleeping. And, to the persons who are engaged in these material activities, we are sleeping. They see that Swamiji has come to America to preach something to make us inactive. He is just trying to drag us from our general engagement, and he's trying to engage us in the process of Kirtan and hearing Bhagavad Gita, and wasting time. So, they believe we are sleeping. Somebody may think, these poor fellows have gathered here to waste their time in discussing something dry, which has no meaning, which is not bringing forth anything. Let us have some business discussion, so that we can gain something from it. We see that these people are sleeping and they that we are sleeping.

Now, actually, who is sleeping? He is awake who comes to the platform of consciousness that I am not this body—I am consciousness. One is awake who has understood this simple fact, that I am not this body, I am consciousness. Without consciousness, my body is useless. Therefore, I am actually consciousness. I am pure soul, and the symptom of my presence is consciousness. I am not this body. When I think deeply, I can understand that this is my body. This is not I, body. This is my body. So, one who has understood this—he is awake.

Now, the whole process described in the Bhagavad Gita is to be awake. You are pure consciousness—spirit soul. And, not only to be awake, but to act accordingly, so that, at the ultimate end, your pure consciousness may be liberated from this bodily entanglement. Then you'll get your healthy life. This is a disease, this material life. This material body is the symptom of my diseased form of life. I am not actually subject to birth and death. I am eternal. I never take my birth. I never die. This is my real position. Then, what is this birth and death? It is due to this body. Changing the body like a dress is called birth and death. But actually, I am pure soul.

Now, people are saying that god is dead. This theory is popular. They are making propaganda that the Lord is dead. But neither God nor we will ever die; neither do we have birth. In Bhagavad Gita Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna, says, "Arjuna, why are you afraid of fighting? Myself, yourself, and all these kings and soldiers who have assembled before us—all of them—they existed before, and they're existing now, and they will continue to exist in the future. There is no birth and death. So, this warfare should be on the condition of the body. Don't be afraid of it."

This point we have already discussed. One must understand this point: I am pure soul. My presence as pure soul is symptomatized by my consciousness. I know what has happened in my past life. And what is happening, that I can remember also. And, I can guess about my future life. At least, I make plans for my future. Unless I have my future, why should I plan? But, I am beyond this past, present and future. I am eternal. The Lord is eternal, and I am eternal also, as part and parcel of the Supreme God. Therefore, my self-interest is to attain that life of eternity. Life of full bliss. Life of full knowledge. That is the mission of my life. And one who takes that position seriously, who has taken up this mission of life, and is trying for that perfection, he is actually awake. And others who are not at this point, they are sleeping. This is the mark of a sleeping man. A man who is working strenuously the whole day, he is not actually awake. He is sleeping because his real intelligence is asleep. He has lost his self-interest. He does not know what the real interest of human life is.

All Vedic literature is imploring us, "Don't sleep! Don't sleep! Be awake! Be akake! Get up! Get up from this sleep! Utilize the boon which you now have. Don't be foolish."

People are working hard, and earning enough to eat. Especially in your country, there are sufficient means for eating, and nobody is starving. That's all right, but they are still not satisfied. I have studied this very carefully. The younger people all appear to be frustrated. It is not a very good condition, when the young generation, which is the future hope of the country, feels that there is no hope. Their future is dark. Why? Because they have no direction. What is the aim of life? What will they become? The philosophy is, work hard, get dollars, and enjoy as you like. This is misguidance. Therefore, the young are not happy. So, they take center of something which is objectionable for satisfaction. But that cannot give total satisfaction.

Now, here is an opportunity. The Bhagavad Gita can show you your actual life. Take advantage of it. Appeal especially to the younger people. Don't be frustrated; don't be disappointed. There is full enjoyment in your future. You are all part and parcel of the Supreme. Iswara parama Krishna, sat-chit-ananda vigraha. The Lord says, "Oh, these poor living entities. They are suffering so much. They are feeling frustrated. Oh, they are my parts and parcels." He is claiming. So He comes to claim you. "My dear boys, my dear children, why are you suffering? Please hear me. Give up all your engagements. Just hear Me. Try to follow what I say. I shall liberate you from all the reactions of sin." You'll find in the Bhagavad Gita that this is guaranteed. Simply surrender unto the Lord. Not only Sri Krishna, of course. Lord Jesus Christ also spoke in the same way: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matthew: 1/28-30) That is the message of all persons who come from that Spiritual World—from the Kingdom of Godhead. That is the only message.

So, actually, this Bhagavad Gita is giving you the light to a happy life. Don't miss this opportunity. Try to hear it, to have it. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has made it very easy. To fulfill the mission of our life, there are nine different processes of devotional service: hearing, chanting, remembering, worshipping, accepting, service, offering everything, friendship and praying. Out of these nine, the first two processes, which are principle and primary, are Sravanam Kirtanam Vishnu. Hear and glorify. That will cleanse your heart of the dust which has accumulated for so many lifetimes, and you will see things very clearly.

Swami and Goswami are different synonyms of the word for persons who are in full control of the senses. Don't be thinking that you cannot control your senses. Everyone is able. You'll get strength by this process. This chanting of Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare will help you. Don't be dejected by thinking that you have no strength. You'll get strength. Continue this process. Kirtanam Sravanam means chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare. And, hear some passages from the Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagawatam. Utilize these two processes, and you'll find strength for your spiritual life. One has to become situated in that position of sense control.

Now, you have no doubt seen the ocean. How full it is! The ocean is so powerful that, if it rose, all New York City would be submerged under water. But it does not disturb us. It does not go beyond its limits. For example, the Narrows is the brink of the ocean. The ocean does not come on the other side of the Narrows. This is the example. When we have controlled the senses, we shall be just like the big ocean—although full with spiritual knowledge, calm and quiet without disturbing anyone, and without being disturbed. Peaceful.

In Bengal there are about five hundred rivers. All these rivers flow down water, to the ocean. But still, the ocean, the Bay of Bengal, is calm and quiet. Quiet. Similarly, for those who have become as full and as big as the ocean, material desires may come, but they are not disturbed. Although so many rivers are flowing down water, you won't see an inch of increase in the ocean. It keeps the same level. You can take any amount of water out of it, and you can pour any amount of water into it. The sea level is always the same. This example is given. Desires we must have. We cannot extinguish desires. It is foolishness to think that we can subdue desires. Desires are the symptoms of life. Let there be desires. If I have life and consciousness, then desire must also be there. Just as, when the water flows down from the rivers to the ocean, the ocean is not disturbed, so a person need not be disturbed by these desires. This is the art. This is the secret of the perfection of your life.

Desires may come, but if you are fixed with a proper understanding, you convert your desires. The whole process is to dovetail your desires with the Lord's. The example is that Arjuna desired not to fight, but after hearing Bhagavad Gita, his desire changed. He said, "Yes, I shall fight!" He desired to fight. So there was desire. The mode of desire was changed, that's all. Similarly, we cannot stop desiring. That is not possible. But we have to change the quality of the desire. That is all. It's not very difficult: I shall do this, I shall not do this. Bhagavad gita is meant to show us these things. Arjuna desired something before hearing Bhagavad Gita, and he desired something else after hearing Bhagavad Gita. The quality of desire changed. Similarly, by hearing the Gita you can change your desire. You don't have to stop your desire. You simply have to purify your desires. Then you'll not be disturbed by them. When your desires disturb you, you may know that you are not yet spiritually established. And when your desires enlighten you, enliven you, give you happiness—you may know that that desire is spiritual. Just as with Arjuna, the desire has to be changed.

Cawnpore
12 July, 1947

47-07-12

Mahatma Gandhijee

Bhangi Colony

New Delhi.

Dear Friend Mahatmajee,

Please accept my respectful Namaskar. I am your unknown friend but I had to write to you at times and again although you never cared to reply them. I sent you my papers "Back to Godhead" but your secretaries told me that you have very little time to read the letters and much less for reading the magazines. I asked for an interview with you but your busy secretaries never cared to reply this. Anyway as I am your very old friend although unknown to you I am again writing to you in order to bring you to the rightful position deserved by you. As a sincere friend I must not deviate from my duty towards a friend like your good self.

I tell you as a sincere friend that you must immediately retire from active politics if you do not desire to die an inglorious death. You have 125 years to live as you have desired to live but you if you die an inglorious death it is no worth. The honour and prestige that you have obtained during the course of you present life time, were not possible to be obtained by any one else within the living memory. But you must know that all these honours and prestiges were false in as much as they were created by the Illusory Energy of Godhead called the maya. By this falsity I do not mean to say that your so many friends were false to you nor you were false to them. By this falsity I mean illusion or in other words the false friendship and honours obtained thereby were but creation ofmaya and therefore they are always temporary or false as you may call it. But none of you neither your friends nor yourself knew this truth.

Now by the Grace of God that illusion is going to be cleared and thus your faithful friends like Acarya Kripalini and others are accusing you for your inability at the present moment to give them any practical programme of work as you happened to give them during your glorious days of non-co-operation movement. So you are also in a plight to find out a proper solution for the present political tangle created by your opponents. You should therefore take a note of warning from your insignificant friend like me, that unless you retire timely from politics and engage yourself cent per cent in the preaching work of Bhagavad-gita, which is the real function of the Mahatmas, you shall have to meet with such inglorious deaths as Mussolini, Hitlers, Tojos, Churchills or Lloyd Georges met with.

You can very easily understand as to how some of your political enemies in the garb of friends (both Indian and English) have deliberately cheated you and have broken your heart by doing the same mischief for which you have struggled so hard for so many years. You wanted chiefly Hindu-Moslem unity in India and they have tactfully managed to undo your work, by creation of the Pakistan and India separately. You wanted freedom for India but they have given permanent dependence of India. You wanted to do something for the upliftment of the position of the bhangisbut they are still rotting as bhangis even though you are living in the bhangi colony. They are all therefore illusions and when these things will be presented to you as they are, you must consider them as God-sent. God has favored you by dissipating the illusion you were hovering in, and by the same illusion you were, nursing those ideas as Truth(?).

You must know that you are in the relative world which is called by the sages as Dvaita i.e. dual- and nothing is absolute here. Your Ahimsa is always followed by Himsa as the light is followed by darkness or the father is followed by the son. Nothing is absolute truth in this dual world. You did not know this neither you ever cared to know this from the right sources and therefore all your attempts to create unity were followed by disunity and Ahimsa. Ahimsa was followed by Himsa.

But it is better late than never. You must know now something about the Absolute Truth. The Truth with which you have been experimenting so long is relative. The relative truths are creations of the daivi maya qualified by the three modes of Nature. They are all insurmountable as is explained in the Bhagavad-gita (7.14). The Absolute Truth is the Absolute Godhead.

In the Katha Upanisad it is ordered that one must approach the bona fide Guru who is not only well versed in all the scriptures of the world but is also the realized soul in Brahman the Absolute—in order to learn the science of Absolute Truth. So also it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gita as follows:—

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti tad jnanam
jnaninas tattvadarsinah
(Bg. 4.34)

But I know that you never underwent such transcendental training except some severe penances which you invented for your purpose as you have invented so many things in the course of experimenting with the relative truths. You might have easily avoided them if you had approached the Guru as abovementioned. But your sincere efforts to attain some Godly qualities by austerities etc surely have raised you to some higher position which you can better utilize for the purpose of the Absolute Truth. If you, however, remain satisfied with such temporary position only and do not try to know the Absolute Truth, then surely you are to fall down from the artificially exalted position under the laws of Nature. But if you really want to approach the Absolute Truth and want to do some real good to the people in general all over the world, which shall include your ideas of unity, peace and non-violence, then you must give up the rotten politics immediately and rise up for the preaching work of the philosophy and religion of "Bhagavad-gita'' without offering unnecessary and dogmatic interpretations on them. I had occasionally discussed this subject in my paper "Back to Godhead'' and a leaf from the same is enclosed herewith for your reference.

I would only request you to retire from politics at least for a month only and let us have discussion on the Bhagavad-gita. I am sure, thereby, that you shall get a new light from the result of such discussions not only for your benefit but for the benefit of the world at large—as I know that you are sincere, honest and moralist.

Awaiting your early reply with interest.

Yours sincerely,
Abhay Charan De.

Enclosure—one leaf from Back to Godhead-

We have all heard it at school in the science class… In the begining there was nothing… and from that nothing came a big bang, caused by no one coming from nowhere… It created all the mass of the universe completely by chance [according to Einstein's Theory]…

The mass then contracted and automatically formed all the planets and set them into motion, all orbiting around the sun [all by an impossibly unlikely coincidence!] Then some chemicals appeared from nowhere and mixed themselves together [once again all by themselves, another impossible and unlikely coincidence...] And, lo and behold, [for the first and perhaps only time  ] Life was created by chance from matter!!!”

So there you have it… The universe according to science… We accept it of course because they have brainwashed us practically from birth… But it’s complete nonsense. A thoughtful man cannot accept such hopeful ramblings of men desperate to paint God out of the picture at any cost… Science can’t prove any of it. They can’t demonstrate it in their labs… The whole thing is totally unscientific even by their own standards. And there are very few scientists who are prepared to defend the big bang theory now…We have tested with scientist on the internet. When they are confronted they say "Well the Big Bang Theory has lots of problems, but of all the theories its the best one we have..."

Of course the Big Bang theory is not the best theory they have to explain the creation of the universe. But science does not want to even consider the only other very obvious theory of creation… The theory that states there is intelligence behind the creation of the universe. It’s a completely reasonable assumption to make. If we look at a very nice new building in the city and I tell you it was created by a “big bang” last night, would you believe me? No. [unless you are crazy of course]. Because the building is there we know there were engineers, buliders, plumbers, electricions, etc… We may not see them, but we know they were there. The “big bang” explanation of the creation of the building is completely unreasonable…

We sometimes experience a “big-bang” in one of our big cities (there was a big one a few years ago in Oklahoma City). But we have never seen these “big bangs” produce anything constructive or create order. They destroy, and create disorder. Quite the opposite to what the original “big bang” is claimed to have done. And when we have one of these “big bangs” in a city what is the immediate question? Everybody asks “Who planted the bomb?” and “Why did they do it?” This would seem to be the natural response. Of course the scientists could get on the television and tell people that “Nobody planted the bomb — the explosion happened all by itself.” but who would believe them?

Now science is supposed to be a process of observation and experiment. They have conjectured this “Big-Bang” theory — now let them do some experiments and prove it. They can make a “Small-Bang” with some dynamite, or even a little atomic bomb… Let them create something substantial with a “small-bang”. If the universe can be created with a “Big-Bang” then surely they can create a small town, or failing that, at least a building with a “Small-Bang”. Unless science can prove the Big Bang theory by experiments why preach it? And why not consier the most logical alternative explaination of the creation of the universe, that there is an intelligent force behind the creation?

The motivation of the scientists in preaching the Big Bang theory is NOT science, it is NOT a search for the truth. The purpose of the BBT is to construct a philosophy allowing people to live debauched hedonistic lives confident that, “There is no God, there is no life after death, the universe was created by chance. I am just a combination of chemicals and when the body is finished I’m finished — so let me party to the max now!” This is no better than the life of the animals. Science is attempting to eradicate the one thing which separates us from the animals — our ability to understand and question the spiritual, more subtle aspects of our existence.

Science attempts to explain everything in terms of chemicals but no one has ever been able to show (and no one will ever be able to show) consciousness can be created by mixing some chemicals… It’s blind faith. The brainwashed general public are prepared to believe such nonsense when presented by the scientists ONLY because it allows a godless world-view. A mindset that enables me to do anything that “feels good” without considering the consequences. If these theories had to be rigorously tested according to the scientific method no sane man could possibly accept them. There is no observation and there are no experiments. Just mental speculation and some vague notions which have been formulated into a quite detailed religious dogma by the “scientific” community.

And they can’t prove anything, they can’t logically explain it. It all comes down to blind faith…

Krishna says:

manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah

“Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.”

So searching for the real meaning of life is not such a common thing… Most people are happy with chasing women, some chase fame, profit, adoration and distinction, but only a few are interested in spiritual life. There must be some thoughtful scientists who are prepared to think independently from the “accepted dogma”.

Science is [like it or not] a set of beliefs. I agree it is a constantly changing one, but at any point scientists are very energetically “preaching” their beliefs. Their beliefs are certainly scrutinized by other scientists but there comes a time when the “beliefs” start to become “good science” and are generally accepted among scientists. When someone challenges this “good science” there is a big negative reaction. Scientists, like everyone else, have their world-view, their belief system, and when someone “rocks the boat” they don’t like it. But the important point is science is only a “temporary accepted truth”. If you read a science text-book from fifty years ago it will seem ridiculous… Similarly todays text-books will be also useless a few years down the track…

“Your points about missing the goal of life are profoundly true in my view. But this is to mistake science with materialism. Many eastern religions celebrate the awe of the universe in an incredibly beautiful way. It seems to me that this view of the world is fully compatible with science which shows us more of the universe everyday. What could be more delightful than that?”

Yes. The universe is also a form of God and real science is also a form of God realization. But many are not really interested in this. They have turned “science” into a dogma that supports the modern atheistic world-view. This is not science and it is not what real scientists are doing, but it is how the atheists are using science to destroy religious people in our society…

Of course the Big Bang theory is not the best theory they have to explain the creation of the universe. But science does not want to even consider the only other very obvious theory of creation… The theory that states there is intelligence behind the creation of the universe. It’s a completely reasonable assumption to make. If we look at a very nice new building in the city and I tell you it was created by a “big bang” last night, would you believe me? No. [unless you are crazy of course]. Because the building is there we know there were engineers, buliders, plumbers, electricions, etc… We may not see them, but we know they were there. The “big bang” explanation of the creation of the building is completely unreasonable…

We sometimes experience a “big-bang” in one of our big cities (there was a big one a few years ago in Oklahoma City). But we have never seen these “big bangs” produce anything constructive or create order. They destroy, and create disorder. Quite the opposite to what the original “big bang” is claimed to have done. And when we have one of these “big bangs” in a city what is the immediate question? Everybody asks “Who planted the bomb?” and “Why did they do it?” This would seem to be the natural response. Of course the scientists could get on the television and tell people that “Nobody planted the bomb — the explosion happened all by itself.” but who would believe them?

Now science is supposed to be a process of observation and experiment. They have conjectured this “Big-Bang” theory — now let them do some experiments and prove it. They can make a “Small-Bang” with some dynamite, or even a little atomic bomb… Let them create something substantial with a “small-bang”. If the universe can be created with a “Big-Bang” then surely they can create a small town, or failing that, at least a building with a “Small-Bang”. Unless science can prove the Big Bang theory by experiments why preach it? And why not consier the most logical alternative explaination of the creation of the universe, that there is an intelligent force behind the creation?

The motivation of the scientists in preaching the Big Bang theory is NOT science, it is NOT a search for the truth. The purpose of the BBT is to construct a philosophy allowing people to live debauched hedonistic lives confident that, “There is no God, there is no life after death, the universe was created by chance. I am just a combination of chemicals and when the body is finished I’m finished — so let me party to the max now!” This is no better than the life of the animals. Science is attempting to eradicate the one thing which separates us from the animals — our ability to understand and question the spiritual, more subtle aspects of our existence.

Science attempts to explain everything in terms of chemicals but no one has ever been able to show (and no one will ever be able to show) consciousness can be created by mixing some chemicals… It’s blind faith. The brainwashed general public are prepared to believe such nonsense when presented by the scientists ONLY because it allows a godless world-view. A mindset that enables me to do anything that “feels good” without considering the consequences. If these theories had to be rigorously tested according to the scientific method no sane man could possibly accept them. There is no observation and there are no experiments. Just mental speculation and some vague notions which have been formulated into a quite detailed religious dogma by the “scientific” community.

And they can’t prove anything, they can’t logically explain it. It all comes down to blind faith…

Krishna says:

manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah

“Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.”

So searching for the real meaning of life is not such a common thing… Most people are happy with chasing women, some chase fame, profit, adoration and distinction, but only a few are interested in spiritual life. There must be some thoughtful scientists who are prepared to think independently from the “accepted dogma”.

Science is [like it or not] a set of beliefs. I agree it is a constantly changing one, but at any point scientists are very energetically “preaching” their beliefs. Their beliefs are certainly scrutinized by other scientists but there comes a time when the “beliefs” start to become “good science” and are generally accepted among scientists. When someone challenges this “good science” there is a big negative reaction. Scientists, like everyone else, have their world-view, their belief system, and when someone “rocks the boat” they don’t like it. But the important point is science is only a “temporary accepted truth”. If you read a science text-book from fifty years ago it will seem ridiculous… Similarly todays text-books will be also useless a few years down the track…

“Your points about missing the goal of life are profoundly true in my view. But this is to mistake science with materialism. Many eastern religions celebrate the awe of the universe in an incredibly beautiful way. It seems to me that this view of the world is fully compatible with science which shows us more of the universe everyday. What could be more delightful than that?”

Yes. The universe is also a form of God and real science is also a form of God realization. But many are not really interested in this. They have turned “science” into a dogma that supports the modern atheistic world-view. This is not science and it is not what real scientists are doing, but it is how the atheists are using science to destroy religious people in our society…

One who believes in God can perceive His presence. God reveals Himself to His devotees. So they can see and experience the “supreme person who set this universe in motion.” They can also have some knowledge from the scriptures as to what is beyond this universe…

The scientists, however, only accept what they can see, hear, feel, touch and smell for themselves. They observe things and try to explain the observations with “scientific” theories. While this is certainly a process of acquiring knowledge, it is a very slow and imperfect one. All such “scientific” knowledge is always flawed because it is gathered by the scientists using their imperfect senses. All our senses are imperfect: we can’t see things that are very close or far away, we can only see a limited range of frequencies… But that is not all. Everyone has a tendency to cheat. If I want to prove my theory I will accept the evidence that supports it, but I may not pay too much attention to observations that contradict it… We are also illusioned… We accept so many things as facts which are not facts at all. Science is full of “initial assumptions”, and many of these may be wrong, so any theory which relies on these assumptions will also be wrong. If you are doing a big calculation and you make a mistake in the beginning, no matter how nice your calculations are after that point, the answer will be wrong… And finally we all make mistakes. So many experiments are performed but often there are mistakes and the results are not correct…

This “scientific process” is the ascending process for acquiring knowledge. It means finding out things using our own power… But it is not a very perfect method as I have described above. The other way to get knowledge is via the descending process. That means to find a perfect authority, someone who knows, and just accept the knowledge from him. It is not an unfamiliar process. If you want to become a carpenter you go to a carpenter and ask him to take you on as his apprentice… This is the best way to learn.

So we just accept the knowledge Krishna has given in the Vedic scriptures in India. There are thousands of Vedic scriptures on every topic, material and spiritual. There is the Auya-veda for medicine, the Danna-veda for the science of fighting and war, there is the Joyti-veda for astronomy and astrology, there are Vedic scriptures for everything… There are also Vedic scriptures describing the universe and what is beyond the universe, the spiritual sky.

The bona fide spiritual master simply presents this Vedic knowledge. He doesn’t inject his own ideas or philosophy. So the knowledge a bona fide spiritual master presents is perfect. He can tell you all about the supreme person who is responsible for setting this universe in motion. But such bona fide spiritual masters are rare. There are many charlatans presenting themselves as “bona fide spiritual masters” for fame, money, to attract followers, etc… So this has put a lot of people off. But still if we want to find the truth we have to find a real guru…

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tatt va-darsinah

“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.” (Bhagavad-gita 4.34)

There are so many things, even in this universe, that the scientists can not see so how can they ever understand them? The only way is to find an authority and get the knowledge in that way. Scientists can’t even get complete knowledge of the universe, they certainly have absolutely no ability to find out what is beyond the universe…

“Who caused the causer? That would be the next logical question.”

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

“Krishna, who is known as Govinda, is the supreme controller. He as an eternal spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin, for He is the prime cause of all causes.” (Sri Brahma Samhita 5.1)

The difficulty is we are working on a different premise. Your premise is everything can be explained by chemical reactions only. My premise is matter doesn’t move without the touch of spirit. You say “life” is a combination of chemicals. I know “life” is a spiritual force completely different from matter. There is much evidence supporting my view and I have presented some of it but because you do not accept my premise that there is a spiritual component as well as a material one you don’t accept my evidence.

I see, from my perspective, that science has failed to justify it’s claims and can not back up the notion that like comes from chemicals. We see life coming from life around us all the time… that is sufficient evidence that life comes from life. But you say, without proof, without experiments, without even any real idea of how it happens, that life comes from chemicals. This is sentiment not science.

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy! All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Narada is astonished, What kind of hypnotism you do, I do not know. In spite of being placed in so much inconveniences, the Pandavas love for You has increased. This is Krishna consciousness. The pure devotees, if they are put into difficulty they take it, Oh, it is Krishna’s grace.

Prabhupada: So our duty is as, I mean to say, indicated by Narada Muni. Our only duty is how to achieve full Krishna consciousness. Other things, there is no need of trying. Actually, I have seen that in India… Everywhere the same case. A person without any education, even without any, practically illiterate… I have seen so many merchants, he cannot sign even his name. In Calcutta I’ve seen practically a Marwari, merchant. He, he cannot… He has deposited money in the bank. Simply he can sign his own name with great difficulty. So he’s canvassing, “Will you kindly write here…” That means the check to be paid to the gentleman, he cannot write. He’s asking somebody’s help, “You write the name of the person whom I can pay.” And he’ll simply sign. If he writes something wrong, he’ll have to accept. If he writes his own name… (laughter) So that man is earning millions of dollars. You see? And I have seen also very educated medical man, England-returned, M.R.C.P I am speaking from my practical experience. So he goes to a hospital, big doctor, but I have seen in his house. He had not even a good utensil at home. He’s so poor in spite of so much education and highly qualified, England-returned doctor.

So the statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam that tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham. You don’t try for so-called economic development. You cannot have more than what you are destined to get. It is already settled up. This, this living entity… You see different grades of standard of living condition. So they’re according to the past karma, daivena, daiva-netrena, karmana. So you cannot change that. That nature’s law, you cannot change. Why you have got varieties of life, varieties of position, varieties of de…? It is destined. Visayah khalu sarvatah syat. Visaya, these material enjoyment–means eating, sleeping, mating and defending–these… Only standard is different. I am eating something, you are eating something. Maybe, in my calculation, you are eating not very good. In your calculation I am not eating very good. But the eating is same. You are eating. I am eating.

So in the material world the standard of happiness, taking the basic principle, it is all the same. But we have created, “This is good standard. That is bad standard. This is very nice. This is very bad.” Caitanya-caritamrta says, dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana. In the material world, “This is good,” “This is bad”–actually, it is the same thing. As it is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah: it is due to the skin that we are sometimes feeling warm and sometimes feeling cold. The material nature is the same. Similarly, our feelings of happiness and distress is just like feeling the warmth and, I mean to say, chilly cold. Due to the skin, due to this body. Actually, there is no happiness in the material world. Krishna says, duhkhalayam asasvatam: “This place is full of misery, full of misery.” Now, how you can make it happy? Caitanya-caritamrta also says that dvaite bhadrabhadra sakali samana. In this material world it is our mental creation: “This is happiness. This is distress.” Actually, it is all distress. After all, we have to die. After all, we have to finish this business. So what is happiness or distress? Bhagavata also says that “Don’t bother yourself to make yourself happy by working day and night without trying for Krishna consciousness. This is simply waste of time.” There is no question of happiness in this material world. If you actually want to be happy, anandamayo ‘bhyasat, if you want to be placed in real happiness, that is Krishna consciousness. Tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido na labhyate.

So this chance we have got in this human form of life. I can execute the business of Krishna consciousness very nicely. In other form of life I cannot do that. Even if I try, it is not possible. That the dog cannot because it is not a human being. But we can because we are… So why should we lose this chance? Tasyaiva hetoh prayateta.

na vai jano jatu kathancanavrajen mukunda-sevy anyavad anga samsrtim
smaran mukundanghry-upaguhanam punar
vihatum icchen na rasa-graho janah

Krishna consciousness is so nice that, if once adopted, he’ll not degrade like ordinary man. This is stated here clearly. Na vai jano jatu kathancanavrajen mukunda-sevy anyavat. Anyavat, others, as they have become a tool in the hands of material nature, a Krishna conscious person, because he has surrendered to Krishna, he is not under the jurisdiction of the material nature. Mam eva ya prapadyante mayam etam taranti.

So whole stress is being given that “You take, you preach Krishna consciousness. If some way or other…” The whole, the three verses, are stressing that “Even if he falls down, there is no harm. Preach to take Krishna consciousness.” Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says like that, yare dekha tare kaha Krishna-upadesa: “Whomever you meet, you simply try to make him convinced or to preach him the importance of Krishna consciousness.” That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s… Some way or other, if he takes to Krishna consciousness, then his life become successful. Yad uktam yatra kva va abhadra abhud amusya kim yad upavadayiti mukunda-sevi jana kadacit kathancana kujanim kato’pi samsrtim na vrajet na viset.(?) Sridhara Svami says, mukunda-sevi. Mukunda, Krishna’s another name is Mukunda. Muk, muk. Muk means liberation, mukti. So… And ananda. So Krishna can give you liberation from this distressful, miserable condition of material existence and give you transcendental pleasure. Therefore His another name is Mukunda. So mukunda-sevi. Sevi means one, he’s engaged in the service of Mukunda, or Krishna, Sridhara Svami says thatmukunda-sevi va jana kadacit kathancana kujanim gato ‘pi samsiddhin na vrajet.(?) Even a Mukunda-sevi, by chance… There is chance. Every… Just like Bharata Maharaja. He began Krishna consciousness, but by chance he, at the time of death, he was too much affectionate with a deer cub and he become a deer in the next life. So although it is degraded life, still, he did not forget that “For this reason I have become now deer.” So he was very cautious. He was keeping company… Just like here. We have got dogs. They are keeping company with devotees. That is very nice. His dog life also be coming perfect. It may be some pious man. Somehow or other, it has become dog. Now he has… Krishna has given them the association of the devotees. He’s eatingprasadam. He’s chan… He’s hearing, chanting. He’s giving some service to the devotees. So they are not in vain. They are not in vain. No. They, they’re acquiring.

So mukunda-sevi. Similarly, anyone who has taken to Krishna consciousness, even if he falls down… Generally, he does not, but even, taking for accepted that he, somehow or other, he fallen, still, he’ll not have to suffer like others. Just like here, the animals, under the protection of the devotees, at least he has no fear of his life. No devotee will kill. Here the cows, the horse, the dog, they’re assured of their life. Therefore they’re not like ordinary dogs. They’re not ordinary cows. Therefore it is said, Sridhara Svami says, mukunda-sevi, even if he’s degraded, he’s not degraded as ordinary man. He’s not degraded as… Mukunda-sevi na vrajet anga, anyavat kevala karma nisthavat iti vaidharma nistha.(?) Just like other karmis. They are, according to their karma,they’re given birth in a specific species of life. So their case, a devotee’s case, is different.

So kuto ityataha mukundanghry-upaguhanam alinganam punah smaran vihatum necchet yathan jana asad graha rasena na grhyate.(?) Just like we see sometimes… The other day, the boy, Jayarama, he went away. Again he came. We have got experience that many boys, they go away. But they cannot find out… Just like I received many letters from Jayagovinda when he was India, in India, that he’s missing the company of devotee-Godbrothers. He’s missing. So there is a feeling. Anyone who has associated in Krishna consciousness, I mean to say, association, he cannot forget. Rasa-graho janah. Here it is stated that smaran mukundanghry-upaguhanam punar vihatum icchen na. Vihatum means “to give up.” He may fall down by maya‘s influence for time being, but he cannot give it up. This is the sign. He cannot give… Just like… The example is given: just like hot sugar juice. It is very nice. Because it is hot, one is feeling uncomfortable to take it, but because it is sweet, it cannot give way. Hot sugar juice. Similarly, this Krishna consciousness is so nice that if somebody, being…, becomes attracted by some kinds of maya’s, I mean to say, influence, still, he does not like to give up this Krishna consciousness like others.

This is the specific qualification of a Krishna conscious person. Smaran mukundanghry-upaguhanam punah. One who has chanted Hare Krishna, he cannot give it up. Cannot give it up. He has to come again. This life or next life, Krishna will not leave him. Krishna… Once surrender sincerely, “Krishna, I am Yours,” Krishna will never leave him. He will protect you. But if he had become little stronger, then there is no question of falling down. Rasagra rasena grhyate vasi kriyate.(?) Krishna vasi kriyate. Vasi kriyate means hypnotized. It is so nice that one becomes hypnotized. Otherwise, why the boys are working so hard? They are… (laughter) They’re all qualified. They can earn money outside. In your country sufficient money is paid for work, but they are hypnotized here. (laughter)

So Krishna is so nice. Yes. He’s the all-attractive. He hypnotizes His devotee in spite of… Just like the Pandavas. The Pandavas, they were Krishna’s friends. Arjuna was friend. All the brother… Arjuna was very intimate friend, but other brothers, four brothers, they were also Krishna’s friend. And Kunti, the Pandavas’ mother, she happened to be the aunt of Krishna. So they were well, mean, established in relation with Krishna. But as a result, they were banished for twelve years. They lost the game, so they were banished. And their wife, Draupadi, was insulted. Not… They could not insult her, but they tried to insult her. They tried to make her naked in the assembly. And they lost their kingdom, and they were banished for twelve years. So Narada met Krishna. His devotee, he could speak Krishna with little criticism, “My dear Sir, Krishna, by becoming Your devotee the Pandavas are very happy. They have lost their kingdom. Their wife is insulted. And now they are banished for twelve years. So it is very good thing. (laughter) But the wonderful thing I see, now, in spite of all these inconveniences, they have increased their love for You.” So Narada, he is astonished, “What kind of hypnotism you do, I do not know. (laughter) In spite of being placed in so much inconveniences, their love for You has increased.” That is the position of Pandavas. This is Krishna consciousness. Tat te ‘nukampam su-samiksamanah. The devotee, pure devotee, if they are put into difficulty they take it, “Oh, it is Krishna’s grace. It is Krishna’s grace.” Tat te ‘nukampam su-samiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam. They take it in this way, “Krishna, I was to suffer hundred times more than this due to my bad activities in my past life, but You are giving me a little out of it. So it is Your grace.” So devotee never takes any…

Therefore narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati: “One who has become narayana-parah, Krishna conscious, he’s never afraid of any condition of life.” Bhagavad-gita also, Krishna says,yasmin sthito na duhkhena vicalyate: “If one is situated in Krishna consciousness, then he’s never disturbed.” Gurunapi duhkhena: “If he’s put in the severest type of difficulty, he’s never…” Just see the Pandavas. That is the effect of Krishna consciousness. Therefore Narada is trying to convince Vyasadeva that “You preach Krishna consciousness. Whatever you have so…, so far written books, they have been useless. Now you write something, by reading which, one will become immediately Krishna conscious.” Sadyo hrdy avarudhyate. In the beginning of the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said that “Srimad-Bhagavatam is so nice that simply by reading, immediately one can capture the Supreme Lord within his heart.” Sadyo hrdy avarudhyate susrusubhis tat-ksanat. Tat-ksanat means immediately, provided if he’s little willing. That’s all. Susrusu. That is the word.

So our whole program is that Krishna is very kind, always kind upon us, but we have to become little willing to take Krishna’s favor. That… What is the example? My Guru Maharaja used to give a very nice example. I remember. Just like here is a well. Somebody has fallen down; he’s crying, “Please get me out! Get me out! Get me out!” Now, if somebody drops a, a, I mean to, tight, strong rope and asks him, “All right, you catch this rope tightly. I’ll get you out,” and if he says, “No, that I cannot do,” then how he’ll be saved? That much endeavor he must have, to catch the rope. Then he’ll be lifted immediately. Similarly, Krishna says that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. So we have to do that. Simply to surrender unto… Then everything is there. That is the only. Because… Now the rope is there. Now we have to capture. Now, if you don’t use your independence to catch it, then how can you expect to be lifted? That much you have to do. Because you have got… You are living. You are not a dead stone. You have got the independence. Therefore you have to capture, and Krishna will do everything. Then Krishna will do everything. Simply you have to capture, that “Krishna, from this day I am Yours. Whatever You like, You do.”

Just like Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, manasa deho geho, jo kichu mora, arpilun tuwa pade, nanda-kisora. Krishna’s another name is Nanda-kisora. Krishna has thousands and thousands of names, but this word, Krishna, is the original name, the exact name, “all-attractive.” So here Nanda-kisora. Nanda-kisora means the young boy of Maharaja Nanda, Nanda-kisora. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura addressing, “My dear Nanda-kisora, young boy of, young child, or young son of Nanda Maharaja,” manasa deho geho, “my mind, my body, my family,” manasa deho geho jo kichu,“whatever I think ‘This is mine…’ ” Because we are conditioned souls, “my,” “I,” and “mine,” this is our disease. “So whatever I am thinking ‘It is mine’… First of all, ‘This body’s mine,’ or ‘The home, the family, that is mine.’ ” So manasa deho geho, jo kichu… “Whatever I have got in my possession, now I am surrendering unto You.” Arpilun tuwa pade nanda-kisora. This is surrender. “So I am giving unto You my family, my home, my body, my mind, everything.” Arpilun tuwa pade nanda… “Now, whatever You like, You do.” That is very nice song. So we have to do that. Then Krishna will take care. That’s all. The same example: you simply have to capture the rope. Then you’ll be lifted immediately.

So, so here it is said that a Krishna conscious person, even if he is fallen down, he is not so degraded. Sridhara Svami, here, herewith quotes a verse from Bhagavad-gita. It is nice.

yatate ca tato bhuyah samsiddhau kuru-nandana

purvabhyasena tenaiva hriyate hy avaso ‘pi sah

Just like so many boys and girls come to our association just like somebody forcing him, forcing him, “You just remain in this association.” That is Krishna’s grace. That means in their past life they had been Krishna conscious. Some way or other, it was not being fulfilled. Now again the chance is being given. That is stated in Bhagavad-gita, that yatate ca tato bhuyah samsiddhau. The percentage up to which he finished in his last birth, that is not lost. That is there, fifty percent or forty percent, thirty percent, whatever one executed in the last birth. Now next, this birth, unwillingly or by force, by Krishna’s force, he’ll have to accept again Krishna consciousness.

Just like Bilvamangala Thakura. I think I have several times spoken about Bilvamangala Thakura. So Bilvamangala Thakura, he raised himself in his previous life to the bhava-bhakti. Bhava-bhaktimeans always feeling for Krishna. That is the prior stage of loving Krishna, bhava-bhakti. So he, in his previous life he was raised, but somehow or other, he fell down. But it is assured, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto ‘bhijayate: “Even such Krishna consciousness person falls down, he is given chance to take birth in nice brahmana family or suci, pure family, and rich family.” So Bilvamangala Thakura was very rich man. He was born in a very rich brahmana family. And he was addicted to prostitute. By some way or other, he had some inclination like that. So he could not finish Krishna consciousness. He fallen down. But at a opportune moment he got again the Krishna consciousness.

How is that? The incidence is that he was performing the sraddha ceremony of his father, but he had a girlfriend, prostitute. So he wanted to go there very quickly. So somehow or other he finished. And he wanted to go there. But on the road he found that it was very heavily raining and he had to cross the river. So he did everything. And he… The prostitute was… She thought that “Bilvamangala is not coming today. It is very…, so much raining.” So when she saw that Bilvamangala is at the door, she was astonished. She said, “Bilvamangala, how did you come here in this rainy, torrents of rainy…?” So he disclosed everything that how he catched one dead body in the river, then he crossed the river, then he jumped over the wall. So she was astonished, and she simply said, “Oh, this much affection if you would have with Krishna, how you would have been… Your life would have been nice.” Immediately it was… “Oh, Krishna…?” Immediately, he left everything. Immediately he left everything and went to Vrndavana. He is… So Krishna is so nice. Just at the right point He will remind. Yatate ca tatah. Here, in the Bhagavad-gita, yatate ca tato bhuyah samsiddhau kuru-nandana, purvabhyasena. He was accustomed, so immediately reminded, immediately.

So these are the, I mean to say, facilities for Krishna consciousness. And this is the only business one should take. All other things, simply waste of time. That is the instruction of Narada. Narada is the spiritual master within, spiritual master of the whole Vaisnava sect. So he’s giving the right direction, that “Don’t try for anything else. Don’t think that you’ll be happy this way or that way. Never… Whatever happiness or distress…” (coughing) Where is water? So example is given here that tal labhyate duhkhavat. Nobody expects a calamity or distress, but sometimes calamity overcomes us. Similarly, you should not, I mean to say, try for any artificial happiness. Whatever Krishna gives you, be satisfied. That was the basic principle of Vedic civilization. Nobody was trying to make any artificial economic development. No. The whole history of India is like that. They were satisfied, “All right…” Even now the mass of people… In 1942 there was famine. People were dying. Still, they were…, “All right. Krishna has given us. God has given us.” That was the mentality.

So our main business is how to improve Krishna consciousness. We should not divert our attention in any other material condition of improvement. That is actually not improvement. It is simply illusion, that “I am making improvement.” What improvement? Suppose you are earning now, say, five hundred dollars per month. If you earn, say, five million dollars, so then what? Will you eat more than four capatis? (laughter) You’ll eat the same four capatis. And you’ll occupy the same six feet bed. You may acquire the whole property of West Virginia, (laughter) but you’ll have to lie down on six feet. (laughter) That’s all. And you’ll have to eat four capatis. So this is maya. This is maya, “I am improving.” What you are improving? You’ll not be taller. You’ll not be great eater, nothing of the sort. Whatever you have already, you’ll have so the same thing. You see?

So tad eva bhagavad-lila pradhanarena anuvarnaya; ity uktam bhakti-bhavam ka ca kasya lila iti apeksama ilam bhagavan eva satu asmad iti araha.(?) So Narada Rsi, Narada Muni says, “You just try to describe the glories of Krishna.” And what is that? The question may be, “Then how shall I glorify Him?” He says, idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetarah: “You study everything and dovetail with Krishna.” Idam: “This world, this cosmic manifestation…” Idam jagat. Jagat means this cosmic manifestation, idam, this, bhagavan… “It is Krishna.” That means, “Try to preach or try to teach the people in general that everything belongs to Krishna, everything is manifestation of Krishna’s energy.” But not impersonalism. If… The impersonalists’ view is that if everything is Krishna… That is the… That is their material way of thinking. Just like if you take a big paper and, I mean to say, cut into pieces and the pieces are distributed, strewn over, then the original paper is lost. So their theory is, “If Krishna is everything–Krishna has expanded in this world, in cosmic manifestation–then Krishna has no form, separate form.” That is their theory. But the Vedic injunction is: “No, it is not like that.” Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate: Krishna is so full that even Krishna expands million times, still, He’s the same thing, Krishna. That is Krishna. Krishna is person. And even He expands, Krishna, in many ways… Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. This is the fine philosophy. One has to understand how Krishna, in spite of His being a person–He’s person, without any doubt–He has expanded in so many universes, so many manifestations. Yes.

So I was… This morning, while I was walking, I was talking with Devananda that how Krishna expands. It is commonsense affair. Just like a small seed in a fruit–that seed you sow, it becomes a big tree. And from that big tree, again millions of fruits come out. And again from that, each fruit, there are millions of trees. We can see the potency. Even in our material existence we see so much potencies in everything. Why not Krishna’s potencies? We see the sunshine, the potency of the sun. The sunshine is spread all over, and everything is existing on the sunshine. Even the sunshine has got the so much potency. That we can experience. And how much potential is Krishna, who is the creator of the sun also. Yac caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam raja samasta-sura-murtir asesa-tejah. So we have to study like that everything. Everything is Krishna’s expansion. Just like the fire. Fire is situated in one place, but here… Just like here there is a fireplace. But if there is fire, the heat will be experienced up, up, upstair, and here and that other side. Similarly, Krishna, although He’s person, He’s situated… Goloka eva nivasati. He’s enjoying there in Goloka Vrndavana. By His energy, He is expanded. This is simple truth. Anyone, any man with common sense, he can experience.

So Vyasadeva is teaching Narada Muni, idam visvam bhagavan. Isvarad prapanca na prthak.(?) This world is not different from Krishna, na prthak. Prthak means different. The world is not… But that does not mean Krishna has lost His personality. This is the difference between Mayavada philosophy and Vaisnava philosophy. Mayavada philosophy is: “If the whole cosmic creation is God, then where is God again separately?” That is their poor fund of knowledge. That is God who, expanding Himself in so many ways, still He remains as He is. That is God. Otherwise, how He is God? It is material thing. If by expanding, He loses His identity, then it is material. In the material sense, that we experience. The same example: you take one big paper and cut into pieces and throw it. The original paper is lost. That is material. But in the Isopanisad we hear that purnasya purnam adaya purnam idam purnam adah purnam purnat udacyate, purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate. Just like when Krishna was sporting on this earth as cowherd boy, Brahma became doubtful, “How is that? Krishna has become a cowherds boy here?” So he wanted to test whether He’s Krishna. So he, he sifted all the cows and cowherds boys from the pasturing ground, and again he saw that millions times the same cows, boys and cowherd, cows and cowherd boys, are present there. So that is Krishna. He can expand. Brhatvad brhannatvad. Brahman means He can expand unlimitedly. And He can shrink also to the minute. Just like we are very minute. We are also part and parcel. And this cosmic manifestation is also part and parcel of Krishna. Therefore He’s called param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan.

So in this way we have to study to become Krishna conscious. The, everything is there. Simply we have to become little serious. Then we can understand what is this world, what is Krishna, what we are, how they have expanded, how this world is created, everything. All answers are there. It is not a sentiment, that we are accepting something by sentiment. All reasons, all philosophy, arguments, are there. We shall discuss by and by.

Thank you very much. (end)

690622SB.NV Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.18 New Vrindaban, June 22, 1969

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

The driver of the car is always important, either on the car or without the car but people in general are giving importance to the car only. They have no knowledge of the driver. The car requires petrol and the driver requires nice food. So people in general, when they see that we are not giving petrol to the driver, they are surprised…

Interviewer: Many people say that members of the International Krsna Consciousness Society are being cut off from work in the world and therefore their contributions to the world are being lost to the world and I wondered how you felt about that.

Prabhupada: Yes. But they have misunderstood.

Interviewer: That is true?

Prabhupada: Misunderstood.

Interviewer: Misunderstood.

Prabhupada: The difficulty is they do not understand on which platform we are working.

Interviewer: How would you describe that platform?

Prabhupada: Just like you or me or anyone, this living condition is one platform and when I or you, we are dead, that is another platform. So generally people are working on the bodily concept of platform.

Interviewer: What kind of?

Prabhupada: Bodily.

Interviewer: Oh, bodily, walking on the, yes yes.

Prabhupada: And we are working on the spiritual platform. Just like what is the distinction between a dead man and a living man? There is some distinction.

Interviewer: Right.

Prabhupada: So those who are working on the bodily platform, they are working on the dead platform.

Interviewer: Does that involve a majority of the people, or…?

Prabhupada: Anyone. It is a little difficult. Try to understand, that this body, so long the living force is there, the body is important. Do you follow it or not? This body is important how long? So long the life is there.

Interviewer: Sure. What I’m trying to get at is you say that…

Prabhupada: You’ll understand, just try to understand me. That this body is important so long the life is there.

Interviewer: Right, I agree with that.

Prabhupada: So this body minus life, what is the value?

Interviewer: None whatever.

Prabhupada: This body minus life, what is the value?

Bali-mardana: He said none.

Interviewer: None, no value.

Prabhupada: No value.

Interviewer: Except as fertilizer.

Prabhupada: So we are working on that platform where the life is there. And people in general they are working on the platform of this body.

Interviewer: On the platform of, on the dead platform? You say people in general…

Prabhupada: The body is dead. Body is dead. Just like your shirt. It is dead always. Either on your body or hanging on the hanger. Your shirt and coat, is it not?

Interviewer: My shirt and coat are dead?

Prabhupada: Is it not dead?

Interviewer: Right.

Prabhupada: Similarly…

Interviewer: But my body is not dead.

Prabhupada: Body is not because the living force is there.

Interviewer: Right. But people in general you say are walking on the dead platform in live bodies?

Devotees: Working.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: Oh working. Oh, working on the dead platform in live bodies.

Prabhupada: Dead, you don’t talk, you don’t talk.

Interviewer: Is that correct?

Bali-mardana: (laughs) He, Prabhupada has explained to you previously that those who identify on the bodily concept, because the body itself is dead without the soul, it is considered the dead platform. Because the body itself without the soul is dead, whereas we are concentrating on the platform of life, the life within the body, the soul. So that is the platform of life.

Interviewer: Well is that what makes the people make this distinction between the life you are leading and the life of the world?

Prabhupada: Yes, because we are working in different platform.

Interviewer: Uh huh.

Prabhupada: We are working on the live platform and general people, they are working on the dead platform.

Interviewer: So in a sense the movement involves a rejection of the general world activities and…

Prabhupada: Not rejection.

Interviewer: …separation from it.

Prabhupada: Not rejection. Just like your car. Your car is important so long it is moving. But if it does not move, then what is the importance of the car? Motor car.

Interviewer: Not, if it’s not in use it’s serving no purpose.

Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly if you simply concentrate on the car without any attention to the car driver, then what is your knowledge?

Interviewer: It takes both.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Interviewer: It takes both, the car and the driver.

Prabhupada: Yes. Car is important so long it is moving and if it is not moving it has no importance, it is lump of matter. So the car in both the condition, while moving and not moving, it is lump of matter.

Interviewer: Well does that mean that the world, the general world’s activities are like a non-moving car? A lump of matter?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: And that’s why the Krsna movement is separate, separate.

Prabhupada: Appears to be different.

Interviewer: Appears to be separate from the world…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: …is that the proper word, how would you put that?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Interviewer: How would you put it, that “We are…”

Bali-mardana: We are also utilizing the car but our attention is on the life principle, not on the dead metal.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: Appears to be separated, that’s the way you would put it. Well, is it separated?

Prabhupada: It is always separated. It is always separated. Just like the driver and the car, they are always separated.

Interviewer: I’m talking about the movement, from the secular world.

Prabhupada: First of all, understand the analogy. The car and the driver is always separated. The driver is not car, neither the car is the driver.

Interviewer: Well, is the Krsna movement the driver or the car?

Prabhupada: Why you bring Krsna? First of all, try to understand the analogy. There is car and there is the driver. That car is always different from the driver and the driver is always different from the car. Is it not?

Interviewer: Absolutely. The car can’t drive itself.

Prabhupada: So, if you take attention of the car and you do not know anything about the driver, then what is your knowledge?

Interviewer: I didn’t quite get the question.

Bali-mardana: If you pay attention to the car without paying attention to understanding who the driver of the car is, what is the driver, then what is the use of your knowledge? In other words, the driver is the living entity or the soul and the car is this body, the material elements of this material world including the body. So without understanding who you are, who the living entity within the body or the driver within the car, then what is the use of your knowledge of the material elements without understanding who you are?

Interviewer: Well, since this dichotomy appears to be the case, I mean that there is, that the movement is sort of cut off from the world in general, does that not deprive the world of the service, of the usefulness of these people?

Prabhupada: First of all, if you do not understand what is the movement then how you can give your verdict like that? First of all, try to understand what is this movement.

Interviewer: The Hare Krsna movement, the Krsna Consciousness Society.

Prabhupada: Then what is that Krsna movement? That Krsna movement is, just like to understand the driver.

Bali-mardana: The Krsna movement is meant to help people to understand the spiritual knowledge, knowledge of who they actually are. That is what our movement is dedicated to. We are not dedicated for our own…

Interviewer: What is the purpose of the movement, your Grace?

Prabhupada: Purpose of the movement is to know who is the driver of the car.

Interviewer: To know who is the driver of the car?

Prabhupada: Of the car.

Interviewer: And who is that?

Prabhupada: That is, we are contributing. People are in ignorance about his own identification, who is he. He’s thinking he’s dead body. That is misconception.

Interviewer: There’s no way to identify the driver of the car then.

Bali-mardana: No, no.

Prabhupada: Just see it is so difficult subject matter. I am speaking to you, still you feel difficulty. It is little difficult subject matter. We say the car and driver, if you understand this analogy, the car and the driver, so who is important? The driver is important, the car is important. Both combined together giving a service, the car is moving. But if they are separated, who is important, the car is important or the driver is important?

Interviewer: I don’t know how I’m going to get the point you’re making there across. If the car and the driver are separated, the car is useless and the driver is a person. The driver is always important.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, driver is always important. Within the car or without the car.

Interviewer: Within or without the car, and if he’s a chauffeur driving a carload of people then he becomes less important, the people are primarily the ones that are important, that are in the car. (laughter)

Prabhupada: First of all try to understand the car is moving with the help of the driver. So the driver and the car they are always different identity. So when the car is dead, the driver do not work with the car, but the driver is important within the car or without the car.

Bali-mardana: In other words, the soul is important with this body or without this body. But the body without the soul is simply fertilizer, like you said, it’s dead, useless. So our mission is to educate people about the driver, about the soul within the body.

Prabhupada: And people are generally working on the body.

Interviewer: People are generally working on the body.

Prabhupada: Yes. And we are working on the driver of the body. That is the difference.

Interviewer: Working on the driver of the body. On the spirit, right?

Prabhupada: Yes, on the spirit soul. And because they do not know what is the difference between the soul and the body, they cannot understand what is our contribution.

Interviewer: Because they do not understand the difference between the soul and the body, that’s why they don’t understand what you are contributing.

Prabhupada: Contribution.

Bali-mardana: We’re going to give you a transcript.

Interviewer: Do you think that…?

Prabhupada: Now, just you try. We are trying to give enlightenment about the driver of the car. Because the driver of the car is always important, either on the car or without the car. And people in general they are giving importance to the car only. They have no knowledge of the driver. The car requires petrol and the driver requires nice food. So people in general, when they see that we are not giving petrol to the driver, they are surprised.

Interviewer: When they see that you are not giving a role to the driver?

Bali-mardana: Petrol.

Interviewer: Oh, petrol.

Prabhupada: They think that petrol is the food of the driver. (laughter)

Bali-mardana: In other words to satisfy the body does not satisfy the person within the body.

Prabhupada: Therefore they misunderstand, “Oh, they are not giving petrol to this man for eating.” But the man’s eatable is not the petrol.

Interviewer: I would like to ask you another question, your Grace.

Prabhupada: You have understood this point?

Interviewer: Okay.

Prabhupada: No, have you understood this point?

Bali-mardana: Have you understood the analogy?

Interviewer: I accept, ah, I suppose what you are saying is that the driver…

Prabhupada: You have to understand, you have to understand.

Interviewer: …that the driver is the spirit of man and that the car is his physical functioning.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. So the car requires petrol. Does it mean the driver also requires petrol?

Interviewer: You mean the spirit? Food? Does the spirit require food?

Prabhupada: No, no. This analogy. The driver’s food is different from the…

Interviewer: Body food.

Prabhupada: …from the petr…, of the motor car. The motor car without petrol cannot work. Similarly, the driver without food cannot work. But the food of the driver and the power of the motor car different.

Bali-mardana: The needs of the body and soul are different.

Prabhupada: So we are supplying the needs of the soul, and they are supplying the needs of the motor car. Therefore they find difference. They are thinking, “They are not supplying petrol to this man for eating.” That is the difference. They are crying, “Oh, they are not giving petrol for eating to the driver.”

Devotee: Actually we are giving all those things as well.

Prabhupada: Yes. We are supplying everything, driver’s food and the car’s power. But they see that, “Why they are wasting time giving food to the driver?” They think that petrol is the food of the driver as well as the car. They do not know that the food of the driver is different from the petrol for the car. Try to understand this analogy. (indistinct)

Interviewer: I gather what you are driving at is that bodily food is different than, mental, reading, intellectual food, spiritual food, it all comes into the body and we take it all information, ideas, this is the kind…

Prabhupada: Not ideas, that is a fact. Fact that you driver, you must have your food. Otherwise you will die.

Interviewer: I’m looking at you, that’s taking in a certain kind of information.

Prabhupada: You cannot drive the car without food.

Interviewer: You have all kinds of information that you have to have to survive. To get down the sidewalk without running into the building you’ve got to see the wall.

Prabhupada: The sum and substance is that if a person thinks that he is the car, the driver, if he thinks wrongly that he is the car, then his life is spoiled.

Bali-mardana: So if someone identifies too closely with the body, then his life is spoiled.

Interviewer: You think, if he identifies with the body too much his life is…

Prabhupada: Not too much.

Interviewer: At all.

Prabhupada: He should know that he is different from the car. That is real knowledge. And if he identifies himself with the car, then he’s a fool.

Interviewer: Well, can he, is he supposed to care about and honor the body in the physical world…

Prabhupada: That is already taken.

Interviewer: …and to see that, see the physical world as important?

Prabhupada: Suppose if you are utilizing this coat, you are taking care of it, but if you think that you are coat, then you are doomed.

Bali-mardana: If you use the body you should take care of it but if you think that you are the body, then you are doomed, then it is foolishness. But you naturally you take care of the body, but you should still don’t identify with it.

Interviewer: Well you know, Your Grace, the spiritual quality is an important part of life of course…

Prabhupada: Yes, otherwise the animal. If the man does not understand the value of his spiritual quality then he’s no better than the dog. The dog does not know.

Interviewer: What do you think of Jimmy Carter?

Bali-mardana: Jimmy Carter is the Presidential candidate.

Prabhupada: I do not know. What is the (indistinct) is I do not know, neither I…

Interviewer: Not aware of that.

Bali-mardana: Doesn’t care about politics.

Interviewer: But isn’t, that’s part of what I’m thinking about, that you and your movement tend to separate people from concern with what’s going on in the world, like that’s a Presidential election and Jimmy Carter is the democratic candidate. This is a disregard of what’s going on in the world. Isn’t that an example of it?

Prabhupada: No, the thing is that there were many Presidents before, what is this name of this?

Bali-mardana: Jimmy Carter. He is not President yet.

Hari-sauri: Ford is the president.

Prabhupada: Ford. So what improvement you have done by having this President or that President? What improvement you’ll make unless some false promise? That’s all. What is the improvement? You have changed so many hundreds and thousands of Presidents, but what is the improvement about spiritual knowledge?

Bali-mardana: Prabhupada sees everything spiritually.

Interviewer: How’s that?

Bali-mardana: He’s seeing everything spiritually. What is the improvement spiritually out of all these Presidents? So therefore we do not care.

Interviewer: You do not care what the President…

Prabhupada: We take care, but we take care more for the spirit soul than the body. That is our basic principle.

Interviewer: But do you think most of the Hare Krsna members will vote in the election in November?

Prabhupada: They’re attending? (indistinct)

Bali-mardana: He’s asking if you think that they will vote, our members will vote.

Interviewer: Will they participate in the election? Will they register and vote do you think?

Prabhupada: Personally I never give votes.

Interviewer: Never voted. You’re a citizen however, aren’t you, a U.S. citizen?

Prabhupada: I am permanent resident.

Bali-mardana: Permanent resident.

Prabhupada: Immigrant.

Interviewer: Well will they follow your example and not vote?

Prabhupada: I do not know, but our principle is that I vote for this man or that man, so what is spiritual benefit, that is our point.

Bali-mardana: If he was Krsna conscious, then he might vote. If the politician is God conscious, then we’ll support him.

Interviewer: Vote for this man or that, what spiritual difference would it make, is that the way you put that?

Bali-mardana: Yes, as long as the candidate is not God conscious it wouldn’t make any difference which way we vote, but if he’s God conscious, then we’ll vote.

Interviewer: Well, would he have to be in the Hare Krsna movement to be God conscious?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Bali-mardana: Would the candidate, in order for a candidate to be God conscious, would he have to be part of the Hare Krsna movement?

Prabhupada: He must know the science, this science, this spiritual science.

Interviewer: To be God conscious, you must…

Prabhupada: That’s a great science.

Bali-mardana: Great science.

Interviewer: How’s that?

Bali-mardana: In order to understand God it is a great science.

Interviewer: Do you need to be involved in the Krsna movement to be God conscious?

Prabhupada: You may take part in the movement or not but he must know the science. Movement is preaching…

Interviewer: You mean the Bhagavad-gita, he must know that or what?

Prabhupada: Not Bhagavad-gita or anything, but he must… Just like a book, mathematics, it may be written by different men, but one must be a mathematician.

Interviewer: I think what Bali was saying is that if a Krsna consciousness member were running for an office then you would get out and vote for him. That he would be God conscious.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Interviewer: But I’m trying to ask does he have to be Krsna conscious, involvement, in order to be God conscious?

Prabhupada: Everyone should be Krsna conscious.

Interviewer: Huh?

Prabhupada: Everyone should be Krsna conscious. Not only the… President or not President, everyone, that is the objective of human life. He must know himself what he is.

Interviewer: Now, that leads up to another question I wanted to ask you, do you think that the, one of the attractions of Krsna consciousness is the rather exotic, Hindu, unusual customs in the West. I mean these customs are unusual in the West and they have a sort of exotic appeal, a fascination for young people.

Prabhupada: No, no, that ignorance is there both in Western and Eastern. It is the ignorance of the human society.

Interviewer: But do you think it’s unusual, the fact that it’s an Eastern, mysterious Eastern religion has an appeal to American young people.

Prabhupada: Why do you bring Eastern religion Western religion? It is a science. Two plus two is equally important both in the East and the West.

Interviewer: Well, it originated in the East and it’s not very, it hasn’t been customary in the West.

Prabhupada: That originated… Just like the sun rises in India first. That does not mean the sun in America and the sun in India is different. The sun is the same sun. It may appear first in the Eastern side but that sun does not belong either to the East or the West. Sun is sun.

Interviewer: Well do you think that the Eastern sun, meaning Hare Krsna, is appropriate in a culture that has a different religion traditionally?

Prabhupada: No, no, it is ignorance. Why do you say…?

Interviewer: The Jewish, Biblical Christian tradition is traditional in the West, the Hindu tradition…

Prabhupada: I never said that Jewish or Christian or Hindu or Muslim.

Bali-mardana: We aren’t Hindus.

Prabhupada: We do not belong either to the Hindus or Christian or Jewish. We belong to Krsna or God. Krsna means God.

Interviewer: Yeah, but you use the Hindu scriptures.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. Just like we say the sun, sürya and you say the sun, the “sun.” But the subject matter is the same. You say the sun in the sky as s-u-n, “sun.” And we say in India sürya. S-ü-r-y-a. So the name may be different but the object is the same.

Interviewer: In other words, do you think the India-originated religion is, serves its particular purpose in the Western society? I mean, does, is it of particular value in a rather technological society, the Hindu tradition?

Prabhupada: Generally speaking, everywhere, everyone everywhere is identifying his body as the self. It does not mean East or West. This is ignorance. Wherever there is ignorance one identifies himself with the body. This is ignorance. It may be in the East or in the West. It doesn’t matter.

Interviewer: Well, can a self exist without a body?

Prabhupada: No. Self can exist without body.

Interviewer: I mean you say that people identify themselves, the body as the self.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: And that this is ignorance to identify the self with the body.

Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that the driver…

Interviewer: But does that mean a sort of rejection of the body as unimportant?

Prabhupada: Not rejection. Again, you come to the…

Interviewer: But the body is important to the self isn’t it?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just try to understand. That we have already explained. The driver and the car are two different identities, is it not?

Interviewer: Yes.

Prabhupada: The driver can exist without the car and the car without the driver has no value.

Interviewer: Well, in that sense…

Prabhupada: So why don’t you understand first of all this?

Interviewer: …in keeping with that analogy can the self exist, does the self exist without the body in this world?

Prabhupada: Yes, oh yes.

Interviewer: In this life?

Prabhupada: Yes. Life is always there.

Interviewer: As a spirit apart from the body.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is the ideal life.

Bali-mardana: That is the goal.

Prabhupada: That is the goal. When the soul lives without this material body, that is his liberated life. Just like the criminal, he can live within the jail and without the jail. But he’s thinking wrongly that without jail he cannot live. But his life without jail is real life.

Interviewer: That reflects the old, the Hindu view that…

Prabhupada: Why you again bring Hindu view?

Interviewer: Or, the, at least the Eastern religious view, that to leave this life…

Prabhupada: Why we are bringing Hindu and Muslim view?

Interviewer: Well, O.K., I take that back then. I take that back. Anyway, what you’re saying is that this life is a jail and that really the goal is another life.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes.

Interviewer: Right? I mean that this life is an evil prison.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, now you have understood. This is not a desirable life, to live in the jail, conditioned.

Interviewer: Well in other words, in a sense that is to reject or at least to repudiate this life, this world.

Prabhupada: Not repudiate, to understand.

Interviewer: That it is not a good life.

Prabhupada: It is not a good life, and the whole material world is false identification with myself.

Interviewer: Well is it important to try to improve this life so that it won’t be a prison?

Prabhupada: Yes, improve, improve, to understand that I am not a person of the jail. I am a person of freedom. Long living in the jail one who identifies that “Without jail I cannot live.”

Interviewer: Well, I hope we all get out of it sometime, somehow, someway, either here or there.(laughs)

Prabhupada: But we are trying to educate the prisoners that “Your life is not perfect within the jail. Your life is perfect without the jail.” This is our education.

Interviewer: Life is not perfect in the jail.

Prabhupada: Yes. And the person in the jail they are thinking, “What is this, they are not working for the jail life?”

Interviewer: Person in the jail, I didn’t get that.

Prabhupada: Because they cannot understand that there is life after jail. They are so fool, rascal that they cannot understand that without jail one can live.

Bali-mardana: So what you were saying before, the persons in the jail are thinking “These people are not working for life in the jail,” so they don’t understand what we are doing.

Interviewer: How’s that now?

Prabhupada: We’re not working to keep people in the jail conception of life. So that’s why they cannot understand what we are doing.

Interviewer: You mean you’re not working for the jail life?

Bali-mardana: To keep people within the conception that life is within the jail.

Prabhupada: Just like a man has gone to jail, he’s giving education to the prisoners, “My dear brother prisoners, this life is not good, you become honest, don’t come to the jail.” So other prisoners, they are working hard, they are hammering on the bricks, they think that “This man is not hammering on the bricks, he’s talking only.”

Interviewer: I didn’t gather that.

Bali-mardana: In the prison the people are, their work is, say, to hammer on bricks. So when, if someone comes into the jail and tells the prisoners, “You shouldn’t be doing this, actually you should become honest and go out of the jail and be free.” Now if the persons in the jail… Because… They will then become envious that “this person, instead of working hard like us, he’s simply talking.” They cannot understand the benefit that he’s giving them and they become envious, that “Because he’s not working like us he is nonsense.” So do you understand the analogy? It’s an analogy. Just like we are coming in the world and telling people to get out of this world, to understand the spiritual world, spiritual side of life. But because we’re not working like them, sometimes they misunderstand what is our purpose.

Interviewer: In other words you think people should get away from what they’re doing in the world.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, that is real life.

Interviewer: Huh?

Prabhupada: Oh! (laughs) (someone comes in?)

Interviewer: That they really shouldn’t concentrate so completely on the world.

Prabhupada: No, no. So long you are in the jail, you have to work according to the principle of the jail but you must know that jail life is not good.

Bali-mardana: You may work within the material world but you have to understand that the purpose is to get out of the material world.

Interviewer: :Well, are your Krsna members out of the, out of jail?

Prabhupada: Just like, some of us are working like the hammerman, breaking bricks with hammer, but that does not mean he does not understand. So long one is in the jail, one is not in freedom, he has to work like that by force. But that is not his proper work. He has got a different work outside the jail or in his freedom life.

Interviewer: Well, what people are saying about the members of the Krsna society is that they are not doing the jail work.

Prabhupada: That I have already explained. The prisoner who is hammering the bricks, he’s thinking that this man is simply instructing that you have a different life outside the jail, he’s not hammering on the brick. Therefore he is surprised, “How is that he is not hammering like me?”

Interviewer: In other words, he’s not participating in jail life.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bali-mardana: He’s educating them.

Interviewer: What’s he doing?

Prabhupada: He’s educating.

Interviewer: He’s trying to show them a different way?

Prabhupada: Not different way, he’s educating differently.

Bali-mardana: So they can understand what they’re doing, what they’re supposed to be doing.

Interviewer: He’s educating them to what? That this jail life is no good?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: That the jail life is no good?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: But then is that man that’s hammering the bricks, isn’t he going to quit hammering the bricks, too?

Prabhupada: He may not hammer, he’s giving instruction. Just like I was invited in Ahmedabad jail to give some instruction. So I’m not hammering on the bricks because I was in the jail.

Interviewer: No, you’re giving instruction.

Prabhupada: Yes, I’m meant for giving instruction, I am not meant for hammering on the bricks.

Interviewer: But then once you get this…

Prabhupada: So the person who is hammering on the bricks, he’s thinking that “This man is simply talking.”

Interviewer: That’s why he thinks that the Krsna people are separate.

Prabhupada: He wants to draw him in the business of hammering bricks.

Interviewer: Of hammering bricks. Right, right.

Prabhupada: That is the difference.

Interviewer: That’s the difference. Well, what I’m talking about is…

Prabhupada: He’s thinking that “He’s not contributing in hammering the bricks.” But he does not know that this hammering on the bricks is not a very good business.

Interviewer: Not a very good business.

Prabhupada: He does not know, the rascal, who is trying to bring us also in the business of hammering the bricks.

Interviewer: (simultaneously) of hammering the bricks, that’s right. Yes.

Prabhupada: That is the difference.

Interviewer: Yes. Well when you get through with, talking, instructing the man hammering the bricks, is he going to lay down his hammer, too?

Prabhupada: No, he doesn’t require. The same… You try to understand.

Bali-mardana: He may continue hammering, but his knowledge will be complete. He’ll have complete understanding.

Prabhupada: At least he must know that “This hammering is my punishment.” He knows that “This hammering is not by business, it is my punishment.” That is knowledge, that is knowledge. When a prisoner understands that “This hammering business is not my real business, it is my punishment.”

Interviewer: Isn’t that a rather negative way to look at the work?

Prabhupada: Why negative? It is the fact. That is the positive understanding. Why do you take negative? If you are suffering and if you say, if I say, “Don’t suffer,” is that negative or that is positive?

Bali-mardana: In other words, if you are suffering and I tell you “Don’t suffer,” it may sound negative but actually it’s positive.

Prabhupada: Yes, positive. But they are rascals, they are taking as negative.

Interviewer: Why is work in the world necessarily suffering? It is, it has, a mixture of pain and joy but it’s negative to look on it as useless work. Huh?

Prabhupada: Therefore they are envious of the Krsna conscious men. They do not see that “These people, they are not hammering like us.” So therefore they are thinking that there is no contribution of hammering. They think the hammering is the real business.

Interviewer: That’s pretty good. (laughter) I think people understand the analogy, they think hammering is the business. What do you think is the business?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Interviewer: The world thinks hammering is real business.

Prabhupada: Yes, so our business is to educate them that “Your hammering business is not your life. Your freedom is real business.”

Interviewer: Freedom is what?

Prabhupada: Real business.

Interviewer: You’ve, I’m sure you’ve heard or read about these claims by these parent groups that claim that the Hare Krsna movement members are, ah, sort of controlled by intensive indoctrination? Brain-washed they call it, you know, by getting up and having the two hours or three of chanting in the morning and prayer beads constantly and the group life, that they’re sort of controlled, and denied their freedom. What do you say about that?

Prabhupada: It is due to misunderstanding. They do not understand what kind of preaching, what kind of education we are giving. We are giving education how to become free from the hammering business in the jail. They think hammering business and keep oneself within the jail is the real life because they have been accustomed to that. And when we speak that “Hammering or to keep within the jail is not your real business: your real business is freedom,” naturally they find contradiction, and they think that we are doing something against their business. That is the difficulty.

Interviewer: Like doing something against their what?

Bali-mardana: Against their business.

Interviewer: But in other words you think that there, is there not something to this idea of brain, of being spiritually controlled or spiritually directed?

Prabhupada: It is not controlled, it is not controlled.

Interviewer: Well, what would you call it?

Prabhupada: Controlling one from coming to the jail life. If you give good instruction to a man, that “Don’t become criminal, don’t come to the jail, don’t be engaged in the hammering business,” it appears negative, but that is positive life.

Bali-mardana: If you tell someone not to do something that’s bad for him, it’s positive for him.

Prabhupada: That is his positive life. When the physician says to a patient that “Don’t eat like this, then you will increase your diabetes. Don’t eat this, don’t eat starch, don’t eat sugar.” So people may think he’s simply giving negative, but that is his positive life. They misunderstand.

Interviewer: I guess when you started out down here in Greenwich Village in 1965 you didn’t have any idea that your movement was going to become the rather large movement it is. Did you?

Prabhupada: Yes, because my movement is real movement, positive. Any intelligent man will understand and take it. [break]

Interviewer: …planning a trip to India soon.

Prabhupada: I’m planning to India, and from India to Europe, that is my business.

Bali-mardana: Travels.

Prabhupada: I travel.

Interviewer: I mean you aren’t leaving this country for good. You’re a permanent resident, right?

Prabhupada: Who said?

Interviewer: I don’t know, I just heard that somewhere.

Prabhupada: From where?

Interviewer: I don’t know, somebody said it.

Prabhupada: How can I answer this? Somebody madman must have said it. (laughter)

Interviewer: :I’m just checking it out, but there’s nothing to it, huh?

Prabhupada: I am touring always.

Bali-mardana: He’s always traveling.

Interviewer: Where is your main home?

Prabhupada: My home is back to home, back to Godhead.

Interviewer: Is where?

Hari-sauri: Back to Godhead.

Bali-mardana: With God.

Prabhupada: That is my real home. That means every temple is my home.

Interviewer: Did you work out the spiritual disciplines for the group yourself? I mean about the morning chanting and the recital of the two thousand Hare Krsnas a day and… Did you work those out yourself?

Prabhupada: Still I am working.

Interviewer: Still working, on those disciplines.

Prabhupada: Yes, you see, I have got, these men, they have got.

Bali-mardana: He’s saying did you think of these things yourself, to chant on the beads and follow the program in the morning, have you made these up yourself?

Prabhupada: No, this is the disciplic process.

Bali-mardana: Disciplic process.

Interviewer: Yes, who originated those steps?

Prabhupada: It is since time immemorial.

Bali-mardana: Time immemorial.

Prabhupada: Just like in the Bhagavad-gita you’ll find, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca dròha-vrataù [Bg. 9.14]. Find out this.

Interviewer: Well I understand you do a lot of work translating and that you only sleep two hours a day. Is that right?

Prabhupada: Not two hours, I sleep about four hours.

Interviewer: Four hours? Four hours.

Radhavallabha: …verse Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Satatam kirtayanto mam.

Hari-sauri:

satatam kirtayanto mam
yatantas ca dròha-vrataù
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya
nitya-yukta upasate
 [Bg. 9.14]

“Always chanting My glories, endeavoring with great determination, bowing down before Me, these great souls perpetually worship Me with devotion.”

Prabhupada: So this was spoken five thousand years ago and we are doing the same thing.

Interviewer: Now what’s your, what’s your…?

Prabhupada: Now your answer is there, it is not that I invented something.

Interviewer: Yes, you didn’t invent it, I get the point, that it derives from the Vedic scriptures.

Prabhupada: Whatever we are doing, it is authorized. That is the principle for spiritual understanding.

Interviewer: What I was trying to ask you a while ago, do you think that these particular Vedic disciplines and spiritual principles, concentration on the spirit instead of the body, has a particular usefulness in Western society nowadays?

Prabhupada: It is useful for every human being. If the Western society thinks that they are not human being, that is another thing. (laughter)

Bali-mardana: In other words, this is the business of human life.

Interviewer: What’s your view of Judaism and Christianity?

Prabhupada: I have not studied, but any “ism,” if it is meant for making the soul free from this bodily condition, that is first class “ism.” Otherwise, it is simply waste of time.

Interviewer: Any religion that…

Prabhupada: That gives facility.

Interviewer: Emphasizes making us free from the bodily condition.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: That’s a first class religion.

Prabhupada: That’s it.

Interviewer: I don’t think Judaism and Christianity do that.

Prabhupada: I do not know that.

Interviewer: They consider the body very important.

Prabhupada: Again you come to the same. Body is important so long the soul is there. The car is important so long it is moving.

Interviewer: But they don’t, they cherish the physical, you know, the world itself.

Prabhupada: That is ignorance, that is ignorance.

Interviewer: That is ignorance.

Prabhupada: We have got students from every community. From Jewish community, from Christian community, from Muhammadan community, from Buddhist community, from Hindu community, everywhere. Because the knowledge is for everyone. It doesn’t matter whether he’s Jewish, Christian or… “Two plus two equal to four” is good for everyone. It is not that “two plus two” is good for the Christians, not for the Jews. Gold is gold.

Interviewer: I didn’t get that.

Bali-mardana: The principle of, say, “two plus two equals four,” is the same for a person whether he’s Christian, Jewish, Muhammadan or whatever. Just as the same way that gold is gold. Gold always has it’s value in any situation.

Prabhupada: You cannot say because gold is in the hand of a Muhammadan it is Muhammadan gold, or if it is in the hand of a Christian it is Christian gold. Gold is gold.

Interviewer: Right.

Prabhupada: In anyone’s hand. You cannot designate it.

Interviewer: Who’s got the gold?

Prabhupada: Huh? Everyone has got the gold.

Interviewer: Who has the gold?

Prabhupada: No, everyone has got the gold, but they have, they are not in awareness that what is that gold.

Bali-mardana: Everyone has the gold. They are simply unaware that they have it. Everyone is originally Krsna conscious or God conscious. What Prabhupada is doing is making people aware of it, that it’s within them, within their heart.

Interviewer: Well, are there other paths to awareness of spirit consciousness other than the Krsna consciousness path?

Prabhupada: That, how can I say? That is your subject matter. You study both of them and see and give your judgement.

Interviewer: What is your view? Are there other paths to spirit consciousness?

Prabhupada: There is, but not very elaborate.

Interviewer: There are but not very what?

Bali-mardana: Elaborate, scientific.

Prabhupada: Not very elaborate.

Interviewer: Not very good?

Prabhupada: Not very elaborate.

Bali-mardana: Elaborate.

Interviewer: Well is Krsna consciousness very elaborate?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Interviewer: By elaborate you mean effective, is that?

Bali-mardana: Scientific.

Interviewer: You mean effective by elaborate?

Prabhupada: Effective also.

Interviewer: I mean is that the proper synonym for elaborate?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bali-mardana: These are some of our books that Prabhupada has published just to explain this science.

Prabhupada: We are explaining this science in so many books. It is open to everyone.

Interviewer: That’s quite a library.

Hari-sauri: This is just the beginning. And there’s another forty volumes after this.

Interviewer: Are all of these translations that you’ve made Your Grace? I don’t blame you for sleeping only four hours a night. I tell you, just to produce a half a dozen books in a lifetime is quite a job you know.

Prabhupada: It is very difficult, but I have already produced eighty books.

Interviewer: Eighty? Eighty?

Prabhupada: Eighty books.

Interviewer: Eighty?

Prabhupada: Eighty. Eight zero.

Interviewer: Translations of the Vedic scriptures.

Bali-mardana: And commentaries.

Interviewer: Translation and commentaries.

Prabhupada: And all world scholars, professors, universities, they are receiving so nicely.

Bali-mardana: We have standing orders for all of Prabhupada’s books that he has now and in the future, all over the world in all the leading universities and the professors are using them as texts. We have hundreds of letters.

Prabhupada: You can see some of the lists.

Interviewer: What I’ve heard, what I’ve heard some Hindu professors say is that Hinduism is such a complex and profound religion and that the Krsna consciousness members are very superficial about it. They simply go through these disciplines and really don’t involve themselves in the… They take a superficial version of Hinduism.

Prabhupada: That may be Hindu religion. But we do not belong to any religion. That may be true for the Hindu religion what the professor has said, but we do not identify with any religion. We are different from any religious system.

Interviewer: But the scriptures are the same, the Vedic scriptures are Hindu scriptures.

Prabhupada: No, Hindu religion… Of course, the scripture is the Vedic principle, but the word is not Vedic. This word Hindu is not Vedic word.

Bali-mardana: Hindu is not Sanskrit, it’s just a popular, general term.

Prabhupada: Vedic, Vedas, Vedas, that is real, the word. But they have taken it in a different way. Actually the “Hindu,” this name is given by the neighbor Muhammadans. There is a river called Sindhu. That river is still there, it is now in Pakistan. So outside the border of India, the Muhammadans, they used to call the inhabitants of the neighborhood of that river Sindhu, Hindu. Because they pronounce s as h. So this is the origin. So “Hindu” is a title given by the Muhammadan neighbors. It is not found in the Vedic literature.

Interviewer: I see, I see. That’s like most religious names derived quite often out of ridicule or scorn. Like the Quakers, that was originally a title of scorn. And Methodists, they were the methodical ones, that was a title of scorn. And the Baptists were the baptizers.

Prabhupada: Real Vedic principle is called varnasrama. Observing the principle of four varnas. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. It is a very long science. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, südra. This is called varna. And brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. This is called asrama. So the Vedic civilization is called varnasrama-dharma, not Hindu dharma. This is later contribution of the so-called scholars.

Interviewer: Well ah, I thank you very much for your time, your Grace, and I’m glad I finally got acquainted with you. I missed you in Brooklyn.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Interviewer: I missed you in Brooklyn, I came over there and you were in the backyard, I think you were asleep or having a backrub or something. So I didn’t get to see you.

Prabhupada: Yes, in the daytime I am…

Interviewer: It was good to catch you this time and I hope to see you again.

Prabhupada: So kindly put the matter properly because people misunderstand on account of their ignorance they misunderstand our, movement.

Interviewer: What are their main misunderstandings?

Prabhupada: This bodily concept. They are thinking that they are body. “I am Muhammadan, I am Christian, I am American, I am Eastern, I am Western,” all bodily conceptions.

Interviewer: You mean about the Eastern and Western?

Prabhupada: Eastern, Western, that is also bodily conception. Why they are thinking Eastern, Western? Everyone is human being.

Interviewer: Well, what is it that they particularly understand, misunderstand about the movement?

Prabhupada: They do not understand that we are talking on the spiritual platform and they are on the material bodily platform. Therefore they find contradiction. One has to be little sober to understand this movement and what platform we are speaking. They are accustomed, on the same example, hammering the bricks. And when they see others, they are not hammering the bricks, they think they are different. They cannot understand that life can be without hammering the bricks. Karmis. In the Bhagavad-gita, the word müòha, that has been explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti, karmis, these müòhas. They cannot understand.

Interviewer: I’m going to have to go back and hammer a few bricks. (laughter) It’s been a pleasure, thank you very much, for your time.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Give him prasada. Thank you very much.

Interviewer: Thank you again, I hope to see you again sometime.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Interviewer: Good day. (end)